Lightroom keywords and Bridge plus keyword order

[simonbrattphotography]

Hi

USING: MacBook pro Catalina (latest versions of Adobe online software)

I generally use Bridge for my keywords, thank god it doesnt re-order the keywords like lightroom does. I always want the most important keywords first. Anyway....

Example

I have an image keyworded in Bridge, all done, later i view it in lightroom and the keywords are annoyingly in alphabetical order (why oh why there isnt an options to stop lightroom re-ordering these is beyond me and i know its been asked for many times)
So no in lightroom (just as a test) i add one keyword. Now close lightroom and reopen lightroom and that extra keyword is still there.

Now if i open Bridge or File Info and check that image, the extra keywork isnt there. 

QUESTION

Are keywords entered in lightroom only visable in lightroom? IE not proper metatags. 

Also some of my files keywords have been re-ordered into alphabetical order. Ive no idea why. Ive only ever used Bridge for metadta creation. Is there some overlap where using lightroom will re-order my keywords, even though i never use lightroom for keywording.

Thanks

Simon

[Rob_Cullen]

-Keywords entered in Lightroom-Classic only exist in the Catalog- unless you save metadata to the file [Ctrl+S] , or have prefrerences set to automatically save metadata to files. Metadata will then embed within JPG, TIFF, PSD, DNG, or be placed in a sidecar XMP file with proprietary raw files that Bridge will recognise.

-Keywords entered in Bridge will only be visible in Lightroom-Classic if the metadata is read into the catalog. [MENU: Metadata > Read metadata from files].

I have no answer for the order of keywords. Sorry.

[simonbrattphotography]

Hi Yes i do only keywords in Bridge, but somehow, sometimes, they are getting reset into alphabetical order. I cant determine how or when this happens.

Where is the setting in LRC that stops any file editing of the keywords? I suspect LRC is somehow reorganising them. 

thanks

Simon

[Rob_Cullen]

"Where is the setting in LRC that stops any file editing of the keywords?"

-Do not [Save Metadata to File]  [Ctrl+S]

-Do not set Catalog Preferences/Metadata to [Automatically write changes into XMP]

Now LrC does not 'touch' or change the original file in any way! Neither does it save metadata in an XMP. Any keywording done is kept exclusively in the Lightroom Catalog.

If you are not 'saving metadata to file' in LrC, then it must be Bridge that is changing the KW sort order. For that I do not have an answer!

But note, an Export of a derivative file from LrC WILL embed the LrC keywords in alphabetical order.

[simonbrattphotography]

Thanks wobert

I dont have Automatically write changes into XMP turned on

I just tested it and yes an export from LRC, of a file with KW's in a random order, does re-order the KW's into alphabetical order. 

We are supposed to work with these programs interchangably, so when one program changes data order in another program without the ability to stop that (or even worse, its not clear that that is even happening), I think its something that needs sorting out. All we need it a switch "Turn of auto sort for KW's" in both programes

One program doest reorder them and one will, and were suppose to work seemlessly between the programs.

Obviously im not blaming you, just ranting, it should be an easy thing to fix.

Slightly more confused now, if i look at the file 'INFO' in Finder for either file, it lists the KW's and that list isnt in any order and different to Bridge or LRC order. As a test, in Bridge, i added a new KW at the beginning, called TEST saved it. then checked Finder INFO. The KW TEST appears in the middle of all the other KWs when using Finder INFO. 

So now i go back to LRC, synchronise the folder with my file in (and the new KW TEST) , and the KW TEST doent appear in the KW at all in LRC. 

Clearly LRC takes the KWs at some point, as i never use LRC to add KWs. But its not doing it right now. 

So all three programs show the KW's in a different order. 

[simonbrattphotography]

UPDATE

I can get LRC to get the new KW TEST, but right clicking the image and selecting Metadata, read metadata from files. I dont think thats very intuitive, BUT, to be honest, all i care about is the order of KW's for now. 

If you work in Stock (thousands do), KW order is important.

[@MNiessenPhoto]

I understand your pain. As far as I know, there no way at all to keep LrC from reordering the keywords alphabetically.

After much work, my Stock submission workflow is now the following, and is by far the best I could come up with taking the limitations into account:

- Make any develop needed to the pictures in LrC

- Go to Bridge to add keywords and export the files for Stock submission (for Adobe Stock you also have the option publish from Bridge).

- Back to Lrc to read the metadata and import the keywords. It keeps the file up-to-date, allows searches and avoids any conflict/loss of metadata if you make any further adjustments, BUT reorders the keywords.

You can't make any further adjustments to pictures in Lightroom before publishing, but you could use Adobe Camera RAW from Bridge (I personally don't like ACR, but it's the only way once you've started added keywords).

Also, publishing to Adobe Stock from Lightroom is basically useless, as you would have to reorder on the contributor page, which is a pain.

Further notes:

- I exported my extensive keywords list (with hierarchy) from Lightroom and imported it into Bridge, and try to do that every now and then, to keep them in sync as much as possible.

- When I want to publish a virtual copy (not visible in Bridge), I add the keywords to the original in Bridge. I select/copy the keywords and export the pic to my stock folder (if I intend to publish it along with the virtual copy). Then I export the virtual copy from LrC and paste the keywords into the file details directly from Windows explorer. In Lightroom, read the metadata from the original pic and sync to virtual copy.

- Since I publich to a couple of Stock websites, I don't even waste time publishing to Adobe Stock from Bridge, because I have to export the files anyway, and instead use FTP.

All of that is extremely unintuitive, inefficient and a real pain in the a$$, because it would be so easy to publish to Adobe Stock from Lightroom, and export only for other services. It would be so nice to have the ability to add keywords at any time, develop as needed, add some more keywords, make further adjustments, etc... Just as any normal person could work if they didn't have to worry about keywords order for Stock.

Hope that helps,

Michael

[simonbrattphotography]

thanks for the detailed reply. i;ll just be using LRC alot less from now on. i prefer PS for editing anyway. Such a stupid little problem, easy to fix for Adobe, and thousands of us want it fixed. 

Who really wants the keywords in aplabetical order? ive heard no one begging for it to stay. 

I will only use LRC now for specific batch edits only. 

[@MNiessenPhoto]

Yeah, I agree, it's so annoying.

Etither you don't care and thus it doesn't matter, or you need them in a specific order. I can't think of one reason to have them in alpabetical order, and if there is, it seems clear it's not what most users want.

I myself use mostly Lightroom almost exclusively. For my kind of photography, I can do almost everything in LrC and it's great to have everything in one place, the non-destructiveness, the virtual copies, etc... Photoshop only when I can't do without it, but then imported back into Lightroom anyway.

I was super happy for many years until I started to post on stock websites. Now, it's like having a stone in my shoe.

[F. McLion]

In addition to WobertC:

Yes, there is an issue with the order of the keywords in LR. It's not a bug, it's just a PIT.. if you would like the pictures upload to some market platform. You can't use LR to tag the images for that case because of the keyword order and need to use Bridge for that task.

Add your voice here: https://feedback.photoshop.com/conversations/lightroom-classic/lightroom-classic-custom-sort-order-o...

[Lumigraphics]

I STRONGLY recommend that you not mix the two programs if you use hierarchical keywords. There are multiple namespaces for keywords (dc:subject and lr:hierarchicalsubject, plus Microsoft has a keyword name space) and they unfortunately are treated differently in Bridge and Lightroom.

If you must use both programs for keywording, do some testing with your workflow and look at the raw file data in Bridge or EXIFTool to see how they interact.

[simonbrattphotography]

I NEVER use the two programmes for keywording, ive never used LRC for keywording at all. But if you edit in LRC occasionally its going to automatically mess up my keywords. Im mostly a PS user, so now im going to use LRC alot less until its fixed