Very oversaturated red in HEIF 4:2:2 HLG photos

[shikamu]

Bug in handling of HEIF photo files.  I have been using HEIF 4:2:2 HLG (Hybrid Log Gamma) with my Sony A6700. I have noticed that red is extremely oversaturated and blown out when I import into LrC (currently using 13.2). But it is displayed properly in XnView MP (currently 1.6.5). Here are screenshots to show what I mean. LrC is doing something weird and wrong here. I have not found a setting that turns off their bad, incorrect behavior in LrC.

For quite some time Sony, Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Panasonic, etc. produce these 3 photo file types: raw, JPEG, and HEIF. Adobe which makes the premiere, industry standard photo applications is expected to, at least, properly handle the 3 photo file types all the major camera makers produce. But they don't.

Recently when I saw that I could import HEIF files and noticed that they seemed to look okay, I could edit, export, etc. I thought I was good to go. I didn't notice any big problem until I imported this photo with lots of red yesterday and saw something was seriously out of whack.  Adobe, please fix this.

LrC 13.2:

XnView MP 1.6.5:

[johnrellis]

LR doesn't support HEIF from other than IOS and Android devices.  For details, see the discussion in @shikamu's other thread:

https://www.lightroomqueen.com/community/threads/very-oversaturated-red-in-heif-4-2-2-hlg-photos.498...

[Rikk Flohr: Photography]

This is not accurate. HIF files from DSLRs/Mirrorless support began in April 2023.

I see the help document is out of date: https://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom-cc/kb/heic-files-support.html
I will request it be updated.

Also see: https://helpx.adobe.com/camera-raw/using/hdr-output.html

"Open other HDR formats, such as 10-bit HEIF (.HIF file extension) files from recent Canon, Nikon, and Sony cameras."

[johnrellis]

"HIF files from DSLRs/Mirrorless support began in April 2023."

Excellent.

[Rikk Flohr: Photography]

The Help Doc is now updated: https://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom-cc/kb/heic-files-support.html . It may take 24 hours for those changes to appear in all locals and languages. 

[shikamu]

Yes, I know that.  Thank you for your response.

For quite some time Sony, Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Panasonic, etc. produce these 3 photo file types: raw, JPEG, and HEIF. Adobe which makes the premiere, industry standard photo applications is expected to, at least, properly handle the 3 photo file types all the major camera makers produce. But they don't.

[JohanElzenga]

Don't use HLG for photos. It's a video only profile. I would also advise you to use raw rather than HEIF for photos. I assume this camera can shoot in raw?

[johnrellis]

"Don't use HLG for photos. It's a video only profile."

I'm not sure this is accurate. Rikk indicated that, contrary to the documentation, HDR 10-bit HEIF formats are supported by LR for HDR editing:

https://helpx.adobe.com/camera-raw/using/hdr-output.html#hdr

"Open other HDR formats, such as 10-bit HEIF (.HIF file extension) files from recent Canon, Nikon, and Sony cameras."

Sony's a6700 documentation seems to imply that when HLG is selected, it records the images using industry-standard HEIF options:

https://helpguide.sony.net/ilc/2320/v1/en/contents/201h_HLG_photo.html?search=heif

By using gamma characteristics equivalent to HLG (Hybrid Log-Gamma: standard for HDR images), you can shoot still images with a wide dynamic range and a wide color gamut compatible with BT.2020.

[HLG Still Image] can only be set when shooting in the HEIF format. Set [JPEG/HEIF Switch] to [HEIF(4:2:0)] or [HEIF(4:2:2)], and [File Format] to [HEIF] beforehand.

(This is in contrast to the various non-standard video log options that Sony lets you apply when recording a raw image -- the raw image itself is not affected by v-log setting and is the same regardless of the setting.)

As with any technical issue in flux, I couldn't find anything authoritative and precise about Sony HEIF HLG (lots of heat but little light on dpreview.com, of course).  I found just two purported sample Sony HEIF HLG images for download:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4535779

I'm not very knowledgeable about HEIF, but Exiftool seems to indicate they use industry-standard HDR encoding: 

[QuickTime] Transfer Characteristics : SMPTE ST 2084, ITU BT.2100 PQ
[QuickTime] Matrix Coefficients      : BT.2020 non-constant luminance, BT.2100 YCbCr

On my Macbook Pro M2 Max Mac OS 14.2.1, the two images display the same in Mac Photos, Mac Preview, Mac Safari, Mac Xnviewmp, LR 13.2 Loupe, and LR 13.2 Develop. (Unfortunately, I can't post the results here, because the original poster specifically requested not to republish without permission.)

Further, when I edit the two images in LR Develop and select HDR, they clearly support a much wider dynamic range (visible only in Develop, not Loupe, of course).

[johnrellis]

@shikamu, please upload the problematic .hif to Dropbox, Google Drive, or similar and post the sharing link here.  Based on what Rikk said about the incorrect documentaiton and HEIF from other cameras now being supported and the research I did above about Sony HEIF HLG, I think you may be stumbling over a bug. But to determine that more authoritatively and for Adobe to pay attention, we'll need a sample image.

Also, try taking the image into Develop and clicking HDR at the top right of the Basic panel. Does the image now look better?

[shikamu]

@shikamu, please upload the problematic .hif to Dropbox, Google Drive, or similar and post the sharing link here.

Based on what Rikk said about the incorrect documentaiton and HEIF from other cameras now being supported and the research I did above about Sony HEIF HLG, I think you may be stumbling over a bug. But to determine that more authoritatively and for Adobe to pay attention, we'll need a sample image.

Also, try taking the image into Develop and clicking HDR at the top right of the Basic panel. Does the image now look better?

By @johnrellis

I uploaded this HEIF file to dropbox, but it is the first time I have used it.  I am not familiar with how to share it.  I see a button with the file that says Copy link.  Do I just get that link and anyone can get the file or do I have to do something to make it public?

I will post more about LrC HDR and also how it looks on my other computer.  Time for dinner now though. 🙂

[shikamu]

Okay, maybe this will work.  It is a link to dropbox and the HEIF file above.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/gksbjekxl3sondu0rsui8/DSC00613.HIF?rlkey=qbcxeaosch7vjishx00j9h0fo&dl... 

Let me know if you can get it.

[johnrellis]

[This post contains formatting and embedded images that don't appear in email. View the post in your Web browser.]

When I open your sample .hif in Sony Imaging Edge Desktop viewer, it looks the same as in LR Loupe, with saturated reds losing detail in the highlights:

This suggests that LR isn't doing anything wrong.

When I edit it in LR and switch to HDR mode, displaying it on my Macbook Pro 16" (2023), which has a full HDR display, the reds are still brilliant but not blown out in the highlights, and they look more natural. (I can't provide a screenshot here, because the Mac screenshot won't capture and display the HDR image properly.)

My understanding of the situation: The image is encoded as a true HDR image using the HLG encoding:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_log%E2%80%93gamma 

According to Eric Chan, you need to display HDR images with the latest version of Google Chrome, Microsoft Edge, or LR Develop:

https://blog.adobe.com/en/publish/2023/10/10/hdr-explained

(But note that neither Chrome nor Edge on Mac appear to understand this .hif format, so LR Develop is the only Mac app I know of that can display this HDR image correctly.)

When displayed with apps and devices that don't support full HDR (e.g. any app on a non-HDR display on Mac or Windows, or an app that doesn't understand HDR with an HDR display), the colors and tonal range will be distorted.

I'm still learning about all this, as is everyone else, so I'd love to be corrected with authoritative information (links would be best!).

[shikamu]

Don't use HLG for photos. It's a video only profile. I would also advise you to use raw rather than HEIF for photos. I assume this camera can shoot in raw?

By @JohanElzenga

First, let me apologize for being late to return to this thread.  I have been traveling and thought I would get emails to inform me that someone had replied, but I got no emails.  Fortunately, I came back to the thread to take a look today.

Johan, I am sorry for the confusion.  Maybe I was not clear.  I am not doing video.  I am doing still photos.  On Sony cameras HLG is an option for STILL photos.  Go into the menu on your A6700 (or other fairly recent Sony camera) and you will see what I mean.

Thank you for the advise about raw.  I have been shooting raw for over 2 decades so I am well aware of it.  That is not what this thread is about though.  Again I apologize for not being clear enough.  I suppose my post sounded like I was asking if I should shoot raw, but that is not what I was asking about.

I must learn to be more clear when I write a post so that is something for me to work on.  I am sorry for being unclear.

[JohanElzenga]

John already corrected me. I don't have a Sony A6700, but I do have several A7 series cameras. None of my cameras can shoot in HEIF however, and that apparently is what changed it. As far as I know all Sony 'picture styles' used to be for video only, but now with HEIF as file format for photos this has changed. I did not know that.

[shikamu]

John, thank you for that really good reply and information.  I need to read the links you provided and try to understand them.  Also, I will try using my 16" M2 Pro Macbook Pro.  There are several presets to choose from in Settings -> Display -> Preset.  I normally use Photography (P3-D65), but I will check the others, particularly Apple XDR Display (P3-1600 nits) -- Is that what you used?  I will also, as you suggest, try HDR in LrC 13.2.

[johnrellis]

"Apple XDR Display (P3-1600 nits) -- Is that what you used?"

Yes, Chan's article recommends "true" HDR displays with at least 1000 nits of brightness.

[shikamu]

I decided to ask ChatGPT the following question and got an excellent reply.

Question:

Why does Lightroom Classic blow out and oversaturate red in unedited Cony HEIF HLG photos when in SDR mode, but XnView does not?

Answer:

The difference in behavior between Lightroom Classic and XnView regarding blown-out highlights and oversaturated colors in unedited Sony HEIF HLG photos when in SDR mode could be due to several factors:

1. Color Management and Rendering: Lightroom Classic and XnView may use different algorithms and color management approaches when interpreting and rendering HEIF HLG files. XnView may handle color space conversion and tone mapping differently, resulting in more accurate representation of colors, including reds, in SDR mode.

2. Tone Mapping Algorithms: Each software application may use its own tone mapping algorithms when converting HDR content to SDR. XnView's tone mapping algorithms might be better optimized for HEIF HLG files, resulting in more natural-looking colors and reduced risk of blown-out highlights and oversaturation.

3. Software Settings and Presets: Lightroom Classic and XnView may apply different default settings or presets when opening HEIF HLG files, affecting how colors are rendered and whether highlights are preserved or blown out. XnView's default settings may be better suited for handling HDR content in SDR mode.

4. DR Support and Optimization: XnView may have specific optimizations or features tailored for handling HDR content, including HEIF HLG files, in SDR mode. These optimizations could result in more accurate color rendition and better preservation of highlight and shadow detail compared to Lightroom Classic.

5. Bug or Issue in Lightroom Classic: It's also possible that there is a bug or issue in the version of Lightroom Classic you're using that affects its handling of Sony HEIF HLG files in SDR mode. This could lead to incorrect color rendition, blown-out highlights, and oversaturation.

[shikamu]

The Mac photo Preview app also does not blow out and oversaturate the red in this photo.