Adobe Muse EOL announcement - Alternatives to Adobe Muse?

[Preran]

Hi all,

For those of you that haven't received the email around the Adobe Muse EOL, see the FAQ Product Announcement that tries to answer some the common questions around the announcement including the reasons behind the decision.

Before we proceed with discussing alternatives, the Muse application will continue to open on your computer. You will be able to continue to edit existing or create new websites with the application. Adobe Muse will continue to be supported until May 20, 2019 and will deliver compatibility updates with the Mac and Windows OS or fix any bugs that might crop up when publishing Muse sites to the web. However, it is quite possible that web standards and browsers will continue to change after Adobe stops support for the application.

While there is no 1:1 replacement for Adobe Muse at this stage, the FAQ link above provides some alternatives. Also, Adobe is making our own investment in DIY website creation and welcomes all Muse customers to join our upcoming pre-release program for a new format that will be introduced this year as part of Adobe Spark. Build a beautiful website—in minutes | Adobe Spark

That being said, I would like to open up this discussion for discussing other solutions and migration paths. It would be ideal if we could focus our efforts on the topic at hand.

Thanks,

Preran

[Illostraight]

WJT, us imprisoned mind people get it. We got it 30 pages ago. Thx

[W_J_T]

Illostraight  wrote

WJT, us imprisoned mind people get it. We got it 30 pages ago. Thx

You are trying to take my statement out of context and objectify it. As for you yourself getting it, sadly not given your continued approach to alternatives as discussed previously. But keep using the same tactic over and over to try to mystify the fact.

[Illostraight]

I am getting it as much as you are. Get back to the purpose  this post, Muse alternative and stop trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. It's getting old.

[W_J_T]

Illostraight  wrote

It's getting old.

It sure is. Otherwise, when do you get your moderator badge?

[Illostraight]

And you, yours?

[Nancy OShea]

@Illostraight,

Everyone has valid opinions here even if you don't agree with them.  Please try to be respectful of all points of view.   Or I will lock this discussion.

[greenskin]

There is a difference in giving an opinion as opposed to continually proving one's point over the reason why this conversation was started in the first place! To be continually corrected, and made out that you don't know what you are talking about is NOT a conversation! There are some Muse users here that know about code, the grid framework, etc... but they are here because they prefer the WYSIWYG angle allowing better creativity and are not here to be judged because they chose this track!

From where I sit W_J_T is coming from an almighty "I'm a programmer that knows code inside out" making judgement on the Muse users that are after something more like what Muse use to be. Also continually making snide remarks towards Duncan is not what I call a conversation! So W_J_T you are the winner! You have all of us where you want us!

This is my last contribution here although it is more of a questioning of the fairness going on here!

To all the xMuse users, good luck with it all and I hope you all find your feet again after this ill thought out and greedy direction Adobe has taken with their web design community! And once you guys have moved on from Muse don't forget to check out the Affinity Serif (Affinity - Professional creative software ) product range - serious Photoshop, and Illustrator contenders and sometime through this year a serious InDesign contender!... I'm out of here!

[W_J_T]

greenskin  wrote

making snide remarks towards Duncan is not what I call a conversation

I consider the same regarding the complete absence of responses to various key inquiries towards the developer on things he himself mentioned

1. Why no apparent differentiation of aesthetics or design originality in the sites produced by Sparkle, verse those using other tools or frameworks.
2. Examples of the 1000+ page Sparkle sites that were stated to be in existence.

In all honestly how do you go from this intention ...

To 1000+ page sites, over the course of .5 to 1 version increase of the app? That is a massive difference concerning intention for the app.

I have since found close to 100 sites made with Sparkle. If I wanted I could post a list of these sites somewhere to demonstrate my own points regarding those 2 above inquiries and the statements which I made and inquired upon. Concerning those found sites showing no differentiation even though free-form design was available to the creators deploying those sites. Also demonstrating 85+% of those sites are not responsive and none come close to approaching 1000+ pages. Many of the ones that are slightly larger (beyond the typical 5 to 15 page site) link to pages not made in Sparkle so they can not really be counted towards a Sparkle made site having nothing to do with the app. I am open to being proven wrong concerning the two however.

I really appreciate the openness that has been given to this discussion by Adobe and the moderators.

I'm sorry if as a designer + developer, I have in anyway offended any Muse user and also Duncan, never really my intention. Hopefully amidst everything, some consideration can be given to what has been discussed throughout this thread. But more importantly Muse users can think about possible alternatives and solutions in a broader spectrum of possibilities concerning options and workflows going forward. Again do whats best for you moving forward, much will continue to advance and come forth concerning solutions and alternatives, so be patient.

[Koboltart]

There is a lot of apps apparently that could replace Muse in one way or another. I work as a graphic designer and Art director since 42 years. Muse was a match made in heaven for me. I fully understand that code is what makes the whole webworld turn but there is no way I am getting into that. The threshold is way too high for a 60 year old advertising geezer. The thread here is interesting and I notice suggestions for Sparkle, Everweb, Blocsapp etc. It would be interesting to know what companies are behind all these apps and how solid and determined they are in sticking with their product? I think the company behind Everweb is a webagency. That is a red flag to me since both advertising agencies and webagencies come and go quite frequently. I hope to find a creative replacement for Muse but right now I´m totally lost.

[GARRogers]

Koboltart:

'It would be interesting to know what companies are behind all these apps and how solid and determined they are in sticking with their product? I think the company behind Everweb is a webagency. That is a red flag to me since both advertising agencies and webagencies come and go quite frequently. I hope to find a creative replacement for Muse but right now I´m totally lost.'

At first my thought was hesitant about small companies such as Sparkle, I thought oh my, if large Adobe can't make Muse work, how can a couple of developers do it?  But in shopping for supplies for my actual business, I've noticed that often the large well-established companies drop lines of product without a backward glance, whereas some of the smallest ones have kept going through thick and thin. Maybe it has to do with commitment and overhead, who knows.

I decided to give Sparkle a chance. The developers have four years under their belts and they seem both excited about it and committed to doing it.

To hedge my bets this time around, I would like to find a second app also.

In any event, Nancy O'Shea is right. Nancy, I hope I paraphrase you well enough when I say, 'short of coding it yourself, who knows.'

[Koboltart]

Thanks for your input on my post and I guess you have a point about big vs small company. Apple quit producing monitors for instance. Anyway, I tend to reason like you, it would be good to have two or three apps as a backup that are as advanced as Muse.

To quote Randy Newman: ”I could be wrong now, but I don´t think so. It’s a jungle out there”.

[GARRogers]

Koboltart:

Thanks for your input on my post and I guess you have a point about big vs small company. Apple quit producing monitors for instance. Anyway, I tend to reason like you, it would be good to have two or three apps as a backup that are as advanced as Muse.

I'll be interested in what you find and choose.

[Nancy OShea]

Nobody can predict which apps or services will thrive. But I'm confident that open source projects like WordPress, Bootstrap  & jQuery will all continue well into the future.  They have a large community of dedicated contributors and good support from Theme & Plugin makers.

Mobrise - Free Website Builder Software  uses Bootstrap 3 or 4 + jQuery.  So even if you're not coding, at least you're building projects responsively. 

Pinegrow -  Pinegrow Web Editor | Website Builder for Professionals  for working with HTML pages, WordPress themes, Bootstrap or Foundation.

Mac specific apps are a non-starter for me because I use Windows.  So I view them more as niche products aimed  at iWeb's former user base.   There's absolutely nothing wrong with that but it's just not for me.

[Illostraight]

Koboltart, we're all in the same proverbial boat. I've tried Sparkle only so far, but am going to look for a second one as well. I'm thinking Everweb, but I'm mac, so if ur Windows, it wom't help. I think a lot of these companies will make advances in wysiwyg as the year progresses. That's why instead of arguing in the rightsy/wrongsy vein, people need to say what they're using and how they're working out. Some have graciously commented so far with good info. Stay tuned, I think things out there will improve. As I mentioned earlier, we all thought Adobe was a solid player and Muse would be around for awhile, but it isn't any more. So a small company can't be any worse and might have more of an incentive to make it work as a large company like Adobe has other things to fall back on.

[W_J_T]

GARRogers  wrote

If you don't like Sparkle

I've never stated that, instead I have just pointed out a few things and aspects Sparkle could improve upon, like most any app.

It should also be clearly noted that I have mentioned BlocsApp​ previously as well as Pinegrow. The key point being however you didn't see me throw a fit or getting mad about rayek.elfin​ 's post above regarding BlocsApp did you? In fact I "liked" his post, and you don't see me taking time to defend against it do you?

So was it not a Fair Question based upon Duncan's own stated facts about some large 1000+ page Sparkle sites ? By contrast I am not here to advertise, promote myself or my services. Neither can I help if Duncan seems to not like responding to such things: example 1 | example 2 | example 3 , etc., during conversation or respond to the responses or topics he has himself initiated.

The inquiry into seeing examples of 1000+ page modern responsive sites built with Sparkle, seemed more than fair given he is the developer of Sparkle and chose to make the definitive public statement here. I honestly can't imagine building 1000+ page sites in such an app and would earnestly like to see some of the examples he spoke of.

In regards to what app should people use, here is my statement as seen again below:

W_J_T  wrote

I stand to gain nothing from any post I make here, thus I am not biased in the comments I make. It is of little consequence to me what alternative a person chooses. I am only here sharing my time freely and thoughts to try to get Muse users to think of aspects they may not think of concerning alternatives or replacements in this time or anguish concerning Muse EOL. I have given various reasons to consider and some suggestions, thats all either is, no one is required to adhere to anything I say or agree.

In the end it's their decision, based upon their own needs and criteria. Almost every alternative available offers a trial or a free aspect of an online service. Thus users should try things themselves and come to their own conclusions regardless of anyones statements or opinions here or found elsewhere. It's a personal thing from user to user, not all are the same, or have the same skill-sets or requirements.

As stated there is no 1:1 Muse replacement, so its a struggle for each to fill the void the EOL has presented.

You ask 10 people you get 10 different criteria and 10 different reviews of anything. Replacing Muse is a personal experience to each user, one that none of them wish for or are wanting to do. So mine or yours or anyones comments or opinions should hold only little value in the equation for all these users, its entirely up to them how to move forward, what direction to go and what products and services to use.

No one is forcing anyone here to use product this or that. At least not us that don't have direct connection to products, I obviously can't relate to those here who stand to gain from this Adobe decision.

Regarding succeeding, I agree all apps should be given a chance to succeed, but most all apps can still likewise greatly improve however. I also do not wish for anyone to take part in another Muse like situation down the road. But when people point out things as Nancy OShea​ so eloquently stated above regarding considering clean and open approaches, people immediately don't want to hear about it regardless of the definitive validity towards the future.

Of course the future is untold, so everyone needs to determine their own requirements, needs and risks when making their decisions towards the future. Of course the current apps and services will continue to evolve and hopefully improve. While more and more offerings will emerge with time as well, and yes some offerings will drop out all together as Muse and others before it have done.

For yourself or others if that criteria is apps such as Sparkle, Everweb, IUeditor, FreewayPro, etc., or any of the other apps and services that are largely similar regarding features, then thats your decision to make. The fact that most sites built with Muse, Sparkle and other "free-form & organic" apps look like they too were built with a framework still remains however.

[danielf]

Hi W_J_T --

Thanks for sharing about the desktop-app Everweb and the browser-app IUeditor...I hadn't know about them and both look interesting, as each are true drag & drop, unlike other desktop/browser options that claim to be drag & drop, but really aren't due to being Bootstrap/Foundation Framework built apps, and so the drag-n-drap is really about placing containers that follow the grid, and using padding/margin to move stuff around....a completely different experience!  

In considering Blocs vs Everweb, what's your view?  I've been digging in Blocs which is how i'm learning about the above drag & drop distinction, and as well am continuing on my process of learning the basics of html/css/js out of necessity due the limitations I'm finding in creating the functionality I have in Muse when I must cut the cord, but now seeing Everweb, perhaps that would be the most Muse like experience?  Or do you still prefer Blocs over it?  I know this is a personal question, and one that can only be answered/understood in the context of clear criteria, but I do value your general insights and opinions. 

Thanks for any directions once again....

Cheers!

[Yorh_Ekin]

but now seeing Everweb, perhaps that would be the most Muse like experience?

Give me setting strokes top, left, right, bottom, a ruler and the ability to set guides ... and I think this web editor is really promising.

[GARRogers]

W_J_T

Re large sites constructed in Sparkle:

I found such a site where I believe the web owner used Sparkle.

I am just guessing at its length: it may not be 1000 pages but I bet it is 400 or 500.

It is TheMacU.com

I plan to write to the purveyor and see if he has any reflections on his experience. His site offers a series of video tutorials on using Sparkle; the videos are simple, to the point and easy to follow, no small feat in itself.

I think your points are often well-taken, I wish they didn't have the edge to them that they sometimes take, but you are obviously somebody with experience, both you and Nancy O'Shea, and I read with interest what you both have to say.

The trouble is, we seem too often at cross purposes here: yes, it would be ideal to code our own websites, but I don't see it happening for a great number of us. I think we have to look among the options available where some of the workload is shifted to the developers of wysiwyg software. That's what I was looking for when I opted to use Muse. Clean code or not, it certainly made my life easy for a long time and I'll greatly miss it.

[W_J_T]

GARRogers  wrote

W_J_T Re large sites constructed in Sparkle: I found such a site where I believe the web owner used Sparkle. I am just guessing at its length: it may not be 1000 pages but I bet it is 400 or 500. It is TheMacU.com

Nope. That site is Wordpress based (and bloated concerning resources), also at a quick glance I see no remnants of it ever being derived from Sparkle. Thanks for trying though, at least you actually gave an effort in trying to provide examples on the basis of mythical 1000+ page sites.

[GARRogers]

W_J_T

Nope. That site is Wordpress based (and bloated concerning resources), also at a quick glance I see no remnants of it ever being derived from Sparkle.

Funny because he said he built his site in Sparkle, that's where I came up with the idea.

I'll look into it further.

Thanks for replying.

[michellew24939864]

Duncan, I wrote to you earlier in this forum. I want you to know that I am appreciating Sparkle even more as I progress through the redevelopment process. Thank you for holding on for those of us who do truly want a visual design tool. Yes, I have had to find some work-arounds to replace the Muse widgets, but all of that is working out fine.

I love the “live preview” feature! I am able to consistently check out every page on three browsers on my Mac, Chrome browser on my PC, my iPad Pro, my iPad 2, and my iPhone. There is a slight color variance on the PC monitor, but that’s always been the case in my experience when designing on Mac for both platforms.

I look forward to future feature developments!

[Studio96]

The recent reviews have been helpful - thanks.

In relation to sparkle, i reached out on Twitter to ask if an accordian style view (i.e for expanding text when selected) was available and it wasn’t - Duncan is this coming in any future update please?

thanks

[Duncan Wilcox]

In relation to sparkle, i reached out on Twitter to ask if an accordian style view (i.e for expanding text when selected) was available and it wasn’t - Duncan is this coming in any future update please?

We do plan on supporting common idioms, including accordions. I don't have a time estimate of when it will be though.

Duncan

[Studio96]

Thank you Duncan.

[greenskin]

I totally agree and love the way we can live preview in real time on multiple devices... something I asked, and asked, and asked, and asked Adobe to implement for Muse - laggards!

Have you checked out the "Map" block? Some serious and cool variations in how we can style the map!

I see a lot of scope and potential for Sparkle so I'm really eager to see what comes next!