Losing information in the blacks when export from Lr-Ps

[Oda2627914456cn]

Hi, I lose information in the blacks when I export from Lr to Ps. Why is that...? 

[Oda2627914456cn]

I would be very happy for help. Ps and Lr is updated... 

[D Fosse]

Please post screenshots of both. Include the whole application interface.

[Oda2627914456cn]

You can see the difference in the blacks in Ps.. 

[D Fosse]

First of all, jpeg and ProPhoto is an extremely bad combination. Don't do it. Jpeg only supports 8 bit depth, and you really cannot use ProPhoto on 8 bit data. ProPhoto is such a huge color space that the distance between the numerical steps is so large that errors will blow up.

ProPhoto absolutely requires 16 bit depth, no exception.

So I suspect that's at the bottom of this, perhaps in combination with a monitor profile with small errors that you normally wouldn't see, but here they blow up.

Unfortunately, there is a widespread misconception that you need to use ProPhoto with Lightroom. There is absolutely no reason to do that. This has probably taken hold because of a rather misleading text in Lightroom's external editing preferences. Plus, it really shouldn't be the default. ProPhoto is very risky and error-prone, and you need to know what you're doing.

Second, don't rework jpegs. Jpeg degrades with every new save. Jpeg is a final delivery format to reduce storage/transfer size.

[Oda2627914456cn]

Ok, so I should open the photo in Adobe RGB instead? When I open a photo from Lr with adjustments, should I choose "Edit Original" instead? I was not aware that the file has been compressed.. What is the best way to do it in my workflow: I open rawfiles in Lr, I do my adjustments and then I open it in Ps to do final touchups. I want to keep this workflow but dont want to the photos to be compressed.. 

I use an external monitor (Eizo ColorEdge CG2730). 

[D Fosse]

Yes, Adobe RGB is a lot safer. Try that instead. ProPhoto has its place, but I see it more as a special tool for special cases. I use it very rarely.

The image you used as an example here is a jpeg. Whenever you see that dialog in Lightroom with "edit a copy/edit original" and so on, you know it's an RGB file. That dialog doesn't come up with a raw file. It doesn't apply to raw files.

As for compression, there's destructive compression and there's non-destructive compression. Jpeg is very much the former. It's usually fine for sending out as long as you make sure that jpeg is the final end product. Save out one jpeg copy and that's it.

But your master files should be 16 bit PSD or TIFF. Both those formats can be compressed, but they use non-destructive compression that restores the full data when reopened and decompressed.

So try again with a raw file, and come back if you still see a difference in the black levels. In that case it's probably a monitor profile problem. I should say that Eizo Colornavigator (I use Eizo displays myself) also has a default setting that may on occasion be problematic. It's this one under Preferences, which I have changed:

The default here is to make version 4 and LUT-based profiles. Some applications, under some circumstances, have problems with v4 and/or LUT. It's always safer to set this to v2 and matrix (called gamma value here). In particular, LUT profiles can cause black clipping, which is what you saw in Lightroom (yes, the Photoshop version is probably the correct one).

[Oda2627914456cn]

Thank you so much for answering me! 

Even after adjustments on the settings, I still see a difference in the blacks in Ps.. Its only the photos that has a lot of black in it, not other photos with less. 

This is a screenshot of how my screen is calibrated. It´s settings from my print-supplier. 

[D Fosse]

So now you have it set to version 2 and gamma value in CN preferences?

And you're opening a raw file into Adobe RGB in Photoshop?

Then I'm running out of ideas. I use that exact Eizo model, and  I'm not seeing this difference here. Maybe it's a MacOS bug, I think I've heard of a couple of recent cases (I'm Windows myself).

[Oda2627914456cn]

What do you mean "version 2"? 

[D Fosse]

See the screenshot from Colornavigator I posted above.

If you haven't changed this, you have a v4 LUT monitor profile, and I'm fairly certain that is the problem here.

Make a new profile when you've changed it as per my screenshot.

If that's not it, it's possibly a bug in MacOS GPU code. Test that by disabling the GPU in PS/Lr preferences.

[Oda2627914456cn]

I did that now, changed it to version 2. Still the same.... Going to change the GPU now, but can´t find it in Preferences... 
Also adding a screenshot of something that might be wrong..? 

[D Fosse]

You still have to make the new profile with the new policy settings.

Don't forget to also change LUT to Gamma value. That's specifically what I suspect is the problem here.

There's nothing wrong in your screenshot. That's where you disable the GPU. But try making a new profile first!

In Photoshop you just uncheck "use GPU".

[Oda2627914456cn]

Now it´s good!!!! Thank you so so much!!!!!! I have been in 8 (!) different conversations with Adobe Help, and they all tried different things that did not work.. Can I keep the GPU to off? 

[D Fosse]

So it was the GPU off that did it? In that case I'm afraid I have some bad news, because that confirms a bug in Apple's GPU code. Hopefully they will fix it in the next OS update.

Make sure to report it to Apple.

Turning off the GPU will cripple both applications. They will still work, but you lose a lot of functionality. It's for diagnostics.

On Windows this would have been much easier, because then you could update/roll back the GPU driver yourself. On Mac it's all integrated into the OS.

However, it's still possible that this does not happen with matrix (gamma) monitor profiles, or with v2 monitor profiles - so I would still recommend that you make a new profile.

[Oda2627914456cn]

Yes, seems like that.. Oh.. That´s not good... Will it damage my work in any way? 

[D Fosse]

I edited my post above to add that matrix and/or v2 profiles may not trigger this bug. So try that in any case.

You need to figure out which version is correct and trust that. Based on what I've seen here, the PS version looks more credible. Look at your histogram. If you have a good black level there and no clipping in the blacks, you won't destroy anything.

[Oda2627914456cn]

Yes, I did update a new profile to v2. 

On my screen it´s the Ps version that looks crap... Will do 🙂

[D Fosse]

And how about changing from LUT profile to gamma value?

That's where I suspect this is all rooted. A LUT profile should work, but it may not, depending on application/GPU/OS.

[Oda2627914456cn]

Yes, I did change that too.. 

[D Fosse]

Try to disable the GPU in both applications. Are they still different? 

Note that this is not a fix, just diagnostics, but it would confirm/deny a MacOS bug.

[Oda2627914456cn]

How do I disable GPU? 

[D Fosse]

Oh, one thing I forgot to say...after you change the preferences in Colornavigator you have to make a new profile. This setting is the policy for new profiles. The old profiles stay as they are.