Breaking My Tools. :(

Engaged ,
May 09, 2017 May 09, 2017

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Oh, come on Adobe staff people!

Regarding the changes to titles and graphics workflow in CC17.1:

I understand you want your titling workflow to be as easy and effective as the Motion->FCP7 workflow was back in 2009, but you've missed the mark again!

PLUS, you have this miserable pattern of removing functional tools that I use everyday, and replacing them with completely new "features" that fail to reproduce the functionality of the old tools (e.g. those "obsolete audio effects" in the last update).

Please, don't take away old tools until the new ones are ready to do real work!!

I am so sick of being your beta-tester! I am trying to work over here!

Very frustrated.

Eric D - CoralVision

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correct answers 1 Correct answer

Engaged , May 09, 2017 May 09, 2017
OK, I found it:File > New > Legacy Title...Calming down...Jeez, people, it doesn't have to be like this!

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Engaged ,
May 09, 2017 May 09, 2017

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OK, I found it:

File > New > Legacy Title...

Calming down...

Jeez, people, it doesn't have to be like this!

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 09, 2017 May 09, 2017

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The frustration, I so totally get. Yea, first launching this release was a shocker as far as titling.

But having watched the new EGP demoed at NAB, and talking with some of the folks that have figured that out, it's actually capable of more than it seems. You have to know where to poke the box to find things, however ... which gets right to the heart of your "Jeez, people ... " comment. No, it shouldn't be like this!

That said, there's a number of the tools of the EGP that don't seem to have any possible way to change the behavior or parameters ... which I found is because the controls for many of the EGP tools are in the Effects Control Panel ... so you invoke a tool with the EGP on the right side of the UI, then go to the ECP on the left side of your UI to control the parameters for that tool.

Which, on seeing this, I realized is actually more like a lot of the other "effects" in PrPro ... invoke the effect, then go into ECP to control it. And once you've got the EGP up and in-use, suddenly there's an EGP section in the ECP ... and twirl-downs, and controls, and key-framing of some things.

So it's definitely worth looking up some of the tutorials already out there on how to use it. No, it doesn't have the full tool-set of the old "Legacy" title panel. However, it can do some things that one can't ... and as they roll out more features, is going to be one heck of a lot better to use.

But jeez people, it doesn't have to be like this!

Neil

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LEGEND ,
May 09, 2017 May 09, 2017

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Hey Neil

I have just started poking around the EGP ancd looking for the tutorials.

Trying to establish a new Tiltle workflow.

Maybe you know where the Title asset is held ( BIN) once it is created.

Right clicking on it Sequence and Find in Project is greyed out!  Manually searching the BIn ...no asset!

At this point I have no idea what the programmers are thinking because every thing seems so much more work from controls spread all over the PPro interface.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 09, 2017 May 09, 2017

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That one just popped outta my brain. Things do that, so frustrating ... and I saw two different programs at NAB showing where those are, how to use them collaboratively among other things.

Are they in the Library? Hmmm ... dang!

Neil

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 09, 2017 May 09, 2017

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So far, I can save-as a preset, and they appear in the user-presets spot. Create a title style, which gets saved in the Project main panel. Jason and ... whozzit ... were doing other things with the ones they created. Guess it's back to the tutorials again.

Neil

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LEGEND ,
May 09, 2017 May 09, 2017

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I have just watched 3 video tutorials and none explain where a simple Title asset is held in the project for instant access and management. ie direct from a Bin

Lots of mention of Libraries and sharing and Cloud...but wow...assets are needed to be locatable and accessible without jumping through so many hoops.

I know I am missing something here Neil.  

Hoping Adobe keep the Legacy Title option in the application for a long time cos I am happy to use AEFX for flasher Titles and have a simple workflow to use it.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 09, 2017 May 09, 2017

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I'm missing stuff too ... as the demo programs went through it fast, but they were saving & retrieving in ways I've not rediscovered yet. Yowza ... yep, this could have been handled more ... informatively.

Neil

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 09, 2017 May 09, 2017

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I haven't done the tutorials or tried to use this in a workflow, but....

The new titles are saved in the project file itself. (Just opened one and looked.)

If you select a "new" title and File-Export->Motion Graphics Template, you can save it in a library. And then access it from there.

Legacy titles still appear in the bin.

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Engaged ,
May 09, 2017 May 09, 2017

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You can have it both ways...

With the new Title Tool the assets ordinarily exist only in the sequence itself (which allows for flexible workflows when creating new instances,  as they're not hard linked to a project asset)...  but you can also just drag any Title instance(s) to a bin to create hard linked project assets, and manage them as such, if you prefer.

Not sure why there isn't a preference to have assets automatically added to bin for those users who'd prefer that as a default action. Maybe that will come in a future revision.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 09, 2017 May 09, 2017

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Thanks for posting, guys ... having some fun (ahem) figuring this one out. Sheesh.

But having seen it in operation, once you do ... it can do some pretty cool things ...

Neil

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 10, 2017 May 10, 2017

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Andy, thanks for the info. I look forward to playing.

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LEGEND ,
May 10, 2017 May 10, 2017

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Thanx Andy.  Nice.

Will try and see how that work for me.

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Engaged ,
May 10, 2017 May 10, 2017

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Hey all,

I just want to say thank you to to everyone who has responded here - you are all earnest, collegial, and excellent. Thanks for the support - technical and otherwise - and helping me remember I'm not alone out here. Also, let me apologize for the hot-headed tone of my original post - I will try to follow your positive examples as I react to future developments.

Adobe Support forums FTW today.

Eric D - CoralVision

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 10, 2017 May 10, 2017

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Eric,

From walking around at NAB now four years ... I think every editor I've talked with no matter which program, has a love/what-the-heck?!!!!!! relationship with their main editing app. This year, in discussion at the Adobe booth a staffer who didn't know me ... with another one who does also standing there ... the one who didn't know me asked if I had some things with Lumetri that I though might be changed or improved ... ahem.

The other staffer shook his head and rolled his eyes. He knew what was coming ...

Past these five things which need fixing ... these four parts that work or are designed "wrong" ... there's these 15-20 things that need improvement. Oh, and before it really can take the place of SpeedGrade, you need these five/six things added ... plus everything else mentioned.

Enough for starters? I mean, if you really want, I can go on just a ... wee ... bit more ... sheesh.

And that's not even mentioning .... but I won't go into that either just now.

You're among peers. We just work to sort things out to muddle through, and maybe get some things "fixed!" along the way. And get the work out.

Neil

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Adobe Employee ,
May 10, 2017 May 10, 2017

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There are a lot of changes for Graphics, that part is true. The Legacy Titler is still there, that is also true. Now that you have discovered that, it may help to start with an overview of the new Graphics (+ mogrt) features...

Here are two of many decent tutorial demos for you...

Premiere Pro CC - April 2017- New Features and the Essential Graphics Panel - YouTube

Essential Graphics in Premiere Pro CC 2017.1 on Vimeo

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 10, 2017 May 10, 2017

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James,

The Adobe Premiere Pro CC2017 Manual and help system are completely unaware of the new EGP. I used the Help menu from PrPro yesterday, and went through both the listed verbiage content sections ... only discusses the old titler ... and the video assisting ones, the few that are shown on the 'main' page ... and there's just not much available in a way that most people CAN find it via Adobe on the EGP.

Which is rather ... disappointing, to be mild ... as even so far, it's quite a slick tool. But SO different that even I can't figure out most things without a tutorial!

When are some very helpful help materials on the EGP going to be put up? Any idea?

I DO so appreciate your help on this here.

Neil

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Explorer ,
Jun 06, 2017 Jun 06, 2017

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It's interesting J, the the only documentation on the Adobe site about making the templates in AE is this page Create Motion Graphics templates |

Does Adobe not have technical writers on staff anymore? Or is Adobe relying on third parties to make tutorials to teach everyone one else how to effectively use the new tools?

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Adobe Employee ,
Jun 06, 2017 Jun 06, 2017

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holtz  wrote

It's interesting J, the the only documentation on the Adobe site about making the templates in AE is this page Create Motion Graphics templates |

Does Adobe not have technical writers on staff anymore? Or is Adobe relying on third parties to make tutorials to teach everyone one else how to effectively use the new tools?

See: Create title graphics | 

That should help some more. Adobe still has Tech Writers on staff. I don't have much control over what they work on and when, but I do have decent bandwidth to send them suggested edits and get them rolled out in a reasonable time. The linked-to page above is a working example of that. We review new content from the tech writers, but we only have so much time to do so. So please, if you see anything obviously missing or other significant errors, let me know and I can and will pass it on.

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Adobe Employee ,
May 10, 2017 May 10, 2017

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That's why I pointed to external links that I already reviewed and approved as especially timely and accurate, Neil.

The downside is that they both run upwards of 20 minutes in duration, so if you want something like 1 2-minute primer, I haven't found one of those yet. However there are many, many others posted by now, and I haven't watched many of them. So other links/suggestions are certainly welcome here.

As for official help documentation (e.g. helpx articles), I have no idea what their plans are but if you spot particular errors or even whole docs that seem inaccurate or unhelpful, please send me link(s) and maybe some brief note(s) about the error(s) you see and I do have a contact that can revise and update them pretty quickly.

As for the Help menu in the app, I see what you mean about the 'Help Topics' but type in "graphics" or "motion" and it will reveal some pretty useful menu items to you. I don't know who writes and implements those Help Topics (or who ever actually uses them, for that matter) but if/when I can find out I will ask them for some Graphics / MOGRT specific topics.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 10, 2017 May 10, 2017

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I know Kevin gets the same things ... the Help "files" are so often a mashup of old & new with some new things completely missing. Too bad it's not a higher priority ... I get grief routinely about "those help files suck ... don't they ever actually make a manual?" ... except often not in that polite a language. As people assume ACP's are somehow connected with the products or something, which ... as volunteers ... we most certainly aren't.

I know for some things that if I drill down through several links, I can get to very useful info. It's just very spotty.

And when the company launches an entirely new way of doing something, especially with as much promise as the EGP, it's a pain that there's not the useful info on how to use this wonderful new toy. But I'm preaching to the choir, I know!

Neil

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Adobe Employee ,
May 10, 2017 May 10, 2017

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/R+Neil+Haugen  wrote

the Help "files" are so often a mashup of old & new with some new things completely missing. Too bad it's not a higher priority ...

As people assume ACP's are somehow connected with the products or something, which ... as volunteers ... we most certainly aren't.

ACP = ? (Automatic Colt Pistol, Aviator Continuation Pay?)

I think that for something like that, it is most certainly worthwhile to add a sort of +1 by submitting a feature/bug for updating the in-app help topics across the board. If only to help them gauge how many people are actually looking for current info in there and not finding it. --> Feature Request/Bug Report Form

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 10, 2017 May 10, 2017

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I do James ... I do!

And at the Adobe Community Professional "meetings" (via Connect), the state of the help files .... and the product blogs ... is a frequent topic. They've brought some of the product team and support staff to some of the meetings to discuss this.

At the ACP pre-day at MAX down in San Diego, we had a good long day getting to work with people from various Adobe apps, and again ... the help files/blogs/tutorials was a big area of discussion. Of course, a lot of the ACP's do teaching & tutorials as a regular thing. Such as I'm doing with Lumetri.

Different product teams have different practices & ways of doing things. But the one thing that seems rather consistent within the apps is a lack of updating to the "manuals". And that creates less traffic there ... why go there if you can't find anything that seems more appropo than CC 2014?

Neil

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Adobe Employee ,
May 10, 2017 May 10, 2017

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@Neil here are the latest official non-video help resources for graphics + Mogrts:

https://helpx.adobe.com/x-productkb/multi/motion-graphics-faq.html

https://helpx.adobe.com/premiere-pro/kb/motion-graphics-templates-and-cc-libraries.html

@shooternz (or whatever I should call you now ), Andy, and others...

Graphics only live in the Timeline Sequences which you created them by default. The main reason for this design was so that users can make one Graphic (with text, shapes, clip layer(s)), created and edited to their liking, and then copy it around as much as they want across that sequence without having to know the difference between an instance and a true duplicate of the original Title item they made. If you really need a project item for it, drag your Graphic object from the timeline into the project panel or select it in the TL then choose Graphics > Upgrade to Master Graphic. You will then have a "Graphic" item in your project which you can then rename, duplicate, add to sequence(s), etc... Just note that every new graphic spawned from it will be created as an exact duplicate of it and any changes to it or to any of its sequence "children" will ripple back to the parent project and all other duplicates of it. That may be useful in some cases, but probably not what most users will want.

What users most commonly seem to want is either:

  1. Instance functionality like I described above (making one graphic, copying it in sequences, then just editing text strings, position, minor style changes, etc... without rippling changes everywhere).
  2. Instance functionality where Graphics (title or otherwise) can be made in one sequence and then shared between sequences and/or projects... This is really what the PrPro-specific part of the motion graphics template (MOGRT) was meant for. Make your Graphic in PrPro, review it, tweak it, make it spiffy... then right click > Export as MOGRT and it gets added to your Essential Graphics Panel (EGP) Browse tab (the default location) for use in any sequence/project. You could also copy and paste between sequences/project and it retains all layers as well as importing any clip layer media into the new project as needed. This can get messy though, so if you have complex Graphics to share as templates, use the mogrt workflow, as explained below.

An exported mogrt will include any appearance attributes, effects and animated keyframes you added to the Graphic's Motion, Opacity, Source or Transform parameters in the Effect Controls Panel (ECP or EGP). So that is a big win for people who want to make Templates which go beyond just static text with simple appearance attributes (style, color, shadow... etc) and that's probably why a lot of the tutorials are focusing on those more advanced things. But those things were always considered to be our ADVANCED workflow and should not get int he way of very basic Title creation and usage. I have recently shared some other, more basic, video tutorials, which I have posted in this thread and elsewhere. Let me know if you need those links again and I will send them to you via Direct Message.

As users have noted, there are still some gaps remaining in the workflow, which we are working to fill asap. This is the main reason why the Legacy Titler is still accessible at all. It probably won't be entirely deprecated very soon, since users will still have old projects with Legacy Titles that they may need to playback, open and edit. But we do believe that Graphics is our next generation feature which is actually really easy to use for basic title creation (once you grok maybe the first 2-3 steps, one of which if just knowing that you need a sequence to use the Type tool in the PM), enables a lot more collaboration with After Effects, opens a new world of templates (PR/AE mogrts), and has several other benefits.

Beyond that, please note that we take user feedback seriously and respond to it when we can. Even in cases where we can't or won't make any big changes, we remain committed to giving users the best overall experience possible. So please keep sending your feedback on here or elsewhere (I also lurk on the Linked In - Premiere Pro forum when I can), especially when offered with a reasonable degree of tact, which you have always done. It really does make a difference over time.

 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 10, 2017 May 10, 2017

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James,

THANK you for this response. It includes some great information I've not seen elsewhere, or ... has been in bits & pieces.

Neil

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