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Abandon hope all ye who enter here...

Community Beginner ,
Sep 06, 2009 Sep 06, 2009

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Your post, your thread, you identity may be:

1/ Deleted

2/ Locked

3/ Moved

4/ Subjected to various other fates

(The above is in alphbetical, not order of importance.)

It's very strange... i've been a visiting these forums since about 1999. Photoshop and Dreamweaver (yes, i know that DW was different and amalgamated only a few years ago).

Was always an NNTP user, except for the Illustrator (Windows) web forum which i started frequenting in 2005.That particular forum i always visited through the web interface. Why? Not sure. A different experience... less posts than in the PS and DW forums made it viable.. ??

So, it's about 10 years...

In all those years i have never come across the sheer hostility, arrogance, blinkered thinking and knee-jerk reactions that seem to be the hallmark of the moderators in this forum. They don't seem to think, they don't seem to care. Most of all they don't seem to realise that at least about 80% (correct me if i'm wrong) are old timers letting off steam... old timers, frustrated with the nonsense that is the NEW web forums.

Instead of sympathy and understanding, an attempt to approach the powers that be in Adobe, we have a bunch of jokers, so thrilled with being appointed moderators, so full of themselves, (i imagine) that they're running around and either deleting or locking everything in sight. In other words, they're trying to be more loyal than the Queen!

What a farce... what a nonsense.. most tragically of all, what a travesty...

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Enthusiast ,
Sep 08, 2009 Sep 08, 2009

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agree

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Mentor ,
Sep 08, 2009 Sep 08, 2009

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This is by far the worst forum experience on the web.

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Enthusiast ,
Sep 08, 2009 Sep 08, 2009

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Buko. wrote:

This is by far the worst forum experience on the web.

know what? whatever.

it's just not our  forum experience anymore. the community that existed here for decades (going back to compuserve) has been effectively, ruthlessly destroyed.

you win adobe. whatever.

for all intents and purposes adobe (through their representatives) have driven too many good people away. they've changed their forum focus from a collaborative place where users of all levels could share and learn from one another, to one where newbies come to get answers to "yes or no" and "how do i" questions (and in more and more cases "why doesn't the software work?" questions).

there's nothing here anymore for more advanced users. as others have pointed out (ramon and john j off the top of my head), the main reason for advanced users to keep coming and helping with the newbie questions has never been all altruistism, although there's a healthy dose of it. it's because during the process, we more (intermediate to) advanced users were also able to share and learn by interacting with other advanced users.

as we all know by now, 6 months down the road, this jive clearspace forum software is designed SPECIFICALLY to suppress that kind of interaction.

so be it. it's their forums and that's apparently the way they want them.

i'm done with this:

they don't care, so neither do i. so ...

whatever.

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LEGEND ,
Sep 08, 2009 Sep 08, 2009

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Soon the robots and the exspurts will have the field to themselves.  

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LEGEND ,
Sep 08, 2009 Sep 08, 2009

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I have logged in much long before than my next scheduled time just because I understood that this is Dave's farewell to these forums. If I am right, this is yet another very big loss, and I can do nothing but regret it. Dave has always been not only an extremely good and knowledgeable helper, bur also a notable pacifier. Unfortunately, I understand perfectly his reasons, because they are identical to mine, and to the ones of those who have left posting a farewell note. Reasons that no doubt also shared by those many who have left quietly. And I cannot honestly say that he will be missed very much in the forums, because most of those who will miss him are no longer coming here. Or at least not regularly.


It is sad to see that this deliberate and demoniac campaign for getting rid of the old timers is being so successful. It began with the imposition upon us of a complete new version of the forums, which completely ignored the very many valuable suggestions made during a couple of years in the thread that was specially created for receiving them. A less than half cooked implementation, more than ten times slower than the previous one, full of bugs and features that don't work as they should or simply aren't where they should be (for example: still no button to go to the last message).


The last and perhaps most successful step of this campaign was the nomination of a new kind of hosts/moderators, who share an absolute indifference for the opinions of the users, and who cannot be convinced of acknowledging any error in their actions or opinions, perhaps because they are convinced that it is impossible for them to make any mistake. Unfortunately, some of them are even not ashamed of openly lying to defend their actions or opinions.


Dave, it was a pleasure to interact with you from this remote corner of the world. Adiós (which is really the shortened version of the very ancient "A Dios encomiendo tu espíritu", I entrust your soul to God) and good luck.

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LEGEND ,
Sep 08, 2009 Sep 08, 2009

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Claudio,


You are so right in what you say. I would say a little more along those lines myself except that I know it would be treated with bland indifference by our new masters.

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Community Beginner ,
Sep 08, 2009 Sep 08, 2009

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Just lost a long reply thanks to this effing logging in/out... too complicated to rewrite it all... so eff it...  These forums really smell rather odious...

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Advocate ,
Sep 08, 2009 Sep 08, 2009

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Only thing left for advanced users is Google.  I've been dealing with that fact for months.

The only thing this place is really good for now is blowing off steam, and killing time at work in between waiting for a program to load, compile, restart, etc on my other workstation.

Thanks Jive, thanks Adobe.  Good luck keeping up with your competitors.

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Community Beginner ,
Sep 09, 2009 Sep 09, 2009

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Ansury wrote:

Only thing left for advanced users is Google.  I've been dealing with that fact for months.

??? Grateful for elaboration and elucidation... do you mean joining a Google Group?

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Valorous Hero ,
Sep 09, 2009 Sep 09, 2009

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My own guess is that what was meant was to use Google to locate information in previous posts instead of the spotty forum search.

Cheers... Rick

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Community Beginner ,
Sep 09, 2009 Sep 09, 2009

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RoboWizard wrote:

My own guess is that what was meant was to use Google to locate information in previous posts instead of the spotty forum search.

Thanks, that's what i thought initially as well... but got the impression, he was talking about participation, not just search...

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Advocate ,
Sep 09, 2009 Sep 09, 2009

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There's no quality advanced content here anymore, so Google wouldn't turn up anything relevant in these forums.  I wasn't talking about participation--that's pretty much gone, unless you count blog posts or 3rd party forums hosted elsewhere on decent software.  I now use Google for 100% of my "Adobe product" research-- wasn't always like that, but ah well.

If you use Photoshop I'd suggest you google 'photoshop forums' or some such, I did find what appeared to be a relatively active community run on what looked like working forum software when I looked before (i.e. it wasn't Jive).  No sense staying on the Titanic when there's a life raft available, but at least there is one for Photoshop.  Most other stuff I guess you're stuck with Google which is more like a hot air balloon--very little control or interaction allowed.

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Community Beginner ,
Sep 09, 2009 Sep 09, 2009

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LATEST

Free NNTP server here:

freenews.netfront.net

alt.graphics.photoshop

comp.graphics.apps.photoshop

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Community Beginner ,
Sep 08, 2009 Sep 08, 2009

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I am logging in only because I see that Dave has apparently decided he, too, has had enough.

In all those years i have never come across the sheer hostility, arrogance, blinkered thinking and knee-jerk reactions that seem to be the hallmark of the moderators in this forum.

Nope, me neither. It is almost as though someone has said to these moderators (of whom Jochem van Dieten is by far the worst) "Go ahead, do what you want. Treat all those troublesome (and even the not troublesome) old-timers with maximum disrespect and hostility. Show absolutely no professionalism in your conduct in any way whatsoever: we shall not call you to account or discipline you in any way." It is astonishing.

The behaviour of Mr. van Dieten especially is repugnant. I would suspect him of being a machine, he is so without humour or anything faintly resembling human warmth, except that machines are not childish, pompous, or vindictive as he has repeatedly shown himself. While I generally don't hold with wishing ill upon people, it is still tempting to wish that he should come down with some affliction that is painful, disfiguring, and eventually fatal.

Anyway, for any old timers who are left, I suggest you ditch this place. Adobe corp obviously does not value your contribution.

For myself, I will always be thankful that there was a community here at a time of my life when I needed it; I mourn the loss.

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Advocate ,
Sep 08, 2009 Sep 08, 2009

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For some reason the word hemorrhoid pops into mind

I too agree. The only reason I still patrol here is because I kill time while at work. If I were allowed to be on Facebook at work I would be there instead.

And to top things off, I didn't change the subject line when posting, but it now reads "yreas" on my post ????

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LEGEND ,
Sep 08, 2009 Sep 08, 2009

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Ozzwoman9 wrote:

....

And to top things off, I didn't change the subject line when posting, but it now reads "yreas" on my post ????

Don't you dare to suggest it wasn't your fault. It must have been; there is no other possible explanation. The client/user is always the culprit here.

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LEGEND ,
Sep 08, 2009 Sep 08, 2009

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Wow, why is it that so many posts are simply confrontational? Geez!

Perhaps Ozzwoman9 is seeing something that may be related to why others have reported that some messages suddenly obtained a really long subject line.

Cheers... Rick

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Contributor ,
Sep 08, 2009 Sep 08, 2009

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Captiv8r wrote:

Wow, why is it that so many posts are simply confrontational? Geez!

Robo/Rick,

I see from your profile that you have been with the forums since 2005, though I have no way of knowing if your profile has been shortchanged as many of ours have been.  I've actually been here for 10 years, regardless of my profile statements.  Perahps you haven't really noticed (though I feel one would have to have blinders on to miss it) just how confrontational the moderators have been, especially towards us "old-timers", but they have been.  A person can only be dealt with that way for so long, before they begin to fight back.  What you are seeing now is the culmination of all the issues we have had to deal with since April.  The treatment has gotten progressively worse, to the point that long timers like dave milbut are giving up.  He's just one of many.  As Claudio and others have stated, he is letting you know of his frustration, many others simply gave up the ghost.

It's a HUGE loss.  And no one seems to care.

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LEGEND ,
Sep 08, 2009 Sep 08, 2009

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Hi Hopper

Yep, I was an occasional user prior to Y2K but Y2K forward saw me getting into fora heavily. My forum route began with Microsoft Newsgroups where I became a Microsoft MVP, then to the Blue Sky Software/eHelp forums where I was also an MVP and once was MVP of the year. Then MacroMedia absorbed us and made us Team MacroMedia (TMM) and after Adobe absorbed MacroMedia I'm now in Adobe forums.

I'm sure any loss of experienced folks that help out is bad. I totally agree and that makes sense.

About the time I became aware of this particular forum and began observing things, there was some guy here known as Ramon. I have to admit that Mr. Ramon's behavior seemed appalling at best. I was a bit surprised that his behavior hadn't gotten him banned. I know my own first dealings with him left a very sour taste in my mouth. I had simply tried to help a lost user and made an obviously grievous mistake of parking a thread temporarily in this forum until I could figure out where it was supposed to end up. And I recall thinking to myself at the time that if someone like Ramon had pounced on a new user how unwelcome they must have been made to feel.

After observing interactions between Ramon and a few others and Jochem, it seemed to me that Jochem was simply trying to bring some order to the wild wild west and folks such as Ramon were simply out of control.

I suppose there were probably many months of history leading to those events that I was oblivious to.

I do recall the Adobe folk discussing the new fora with the Community Experts group. I also recall sort of a failed test many months ago. I was happy to see they rolled back after the failure and based on where I came from and what the former test was like, the Jive forums seemed a nice alternative.

Now perhaps I'm wrong with this next bit but in the miniscule fora I'm a participant in, most of the support is provided by Community Experts. Sure, there are a few typical users that visit regularly and contribute, but by and large it's the experts in the trenches so to speak. So I sort of figured that is the way most of the other forums worked here. Looks like my perception of that may be skewed. I was shaking my head in disbelief that so many Community Experts would be turning their backs on the fora simply because they disagreed with the forum software. So part of my perception on that was that if someone was a Community Expert and simply turned away, they should lose that status and be replaced by other knowledgable folks that stand by the users seeking answers.

It's an odd feelig that one has wandered into an active and very sensitive mine field. One that is advertised to be intended to discuss forum issues. Then be blasted and told you are an idiot if you express an opinion on how you see that operation should occur. There was clearly no open discussion, only heated statements of how what was happening was wrong.

Cheers... Rick

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Contributor ,
Sep 08, 2009 Sep 08, 2009

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Rick,

please re-read dave milbut's post (#3) and Claudio's post (#5) for a more clear historical perspective.

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LEGEND ,
Sep 08, 2009 Sep 08, 2009

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I suppose there were probably many months of history leading to those events that I was oblivious to.

Yes, years in fact.


As far as I can remember you were not around in the Photoshop forums. They basically evolved from the Compuserve days and John Cornicello is one of the few links to those days who is left. After the Compuserve forums went to the web, many of the Photoshop users migrated to that brave new world and others continued with NNTP. There was a definite community spirit in those days and, although there were fights and disputes and even bannings, things went on in a generally happy way. There were rough diamonds like Ramón but although he didn't suffer fools gladly, and even upset the tolerant and much respected moderators, his contribution in terms of help to thousands of users was incredible.


Although it probably made sense from a commercial point of view, the  merger with Macromedia was a dubious step from a software point of view and a disaster for the forums. I will refrain from saying more but, apart from the obvious difference of forum software there was a difference in culture.


The term "community" had not been bandied around in the Photoshop world much and now it is ubiquitous. It was seen by the people who did Photoshop and photography as an attempt to discipline a bunch of creative types and, since creative types don't like discipline and order, they have been leaving in droves since April when the last link with the old days was lost and the "community" moved in.


You people just don't understand what has been lost, since you never had it.

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