This discussion is entirely unhelpful...

Enthusiast ,
Oct 12, 2009 Oct 12, 2009

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This thread:

http://forums.adobe.com/message/2308051#2308051

was locked by Jochem van Dieten as per his explanation here:

http://forums.adobe.com/message/2309043#2309043

While i agree that the thread had probably become quite unhelpful to the OP, i disagree with locking it. It was a discussion on how best to help people who wander in here by mistake or ignorance or whatever. It is possible that a continuation of the thread would have led to some kind of consensus, amongst some fairly knowledgeable people, as to how to deal with the problem. This is, after all, a problem that deal with the Adobe forum in general as well as this Forum in particular.

I suspect that Mr van Dieten is taking a rather narrow perspective on the name. When this forum was dubbed Forum comments, i doubt very much that it was meant to apply only to this forum. After all, why create a forum to just comment on yourself? It was meant to comment on the forums in general. Probably the name should have been "Forums Comments". Or "Forums' Comments". ???

I also feel that this forum, or rather these forums, are an interface for Adobe to relate with existing and potential customers. Despite the nomenclature, now gone, of them being "User-to-User" forums the fact that they are now "Forums" reinforces this belief and no longer absolves Adobe of responsiblity. In fact, it increases the burden of that responsibility.

Consequently, cold and arrogant behaviour refelects negatively on Adobe. People wander in... they don't know where they are... they don't know how they got here... in many cases, their English is not good enough to help them find their way. Additionally, for an inexperienced user, the Forum Home Page can be quite bewildering and confusing. Add to that, the fact as evidenced earlier, newbies get thrown into all kinds of forums...

I can only wonder why, while actual users are being helpful to these lost folk, some moderators or Community Experts, who should be the most caring and solicitous, are not only the coldest and rudest, but also castigate the helpful users and block threads that are trying to arrive at a viable solution to helping the 'lost souls'.

Strange... very strange...

ShunithD

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Advocate ,
Oct 12, 2009 Oct 12, 2009

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And when one of them unusually, makes a polite request and says please, I applaud him for it without a hint of sarcasm - and get deleted for abuse!!!!

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LEGEND ,
Oct 12, 2009 Oct 12, 2009

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I get the feeling that most of the people who are defending the present state of affairs have little or no knowledge of what has been destroyed.


They certainly weren't participating in the earlier WebX forums under their present screen names.


It is all very sad.

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Mentor ,
Oct 12, 2009 Oct 12, 2009

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Mr. Lock'em Delete'em strikes again.

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LEGEND ,
Oct 12, 2009 Oct 12, 2009

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My sincere apologies folks.

I feel I may have stirred that pot a bit by replying to Claudio and others to continue the conversation. My intent was simply to point out how in some cases it may actually make some sense to move a thread instead of simply advising the user where they should post.

Cheers... Rick

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LEGEND ,
Oct 12, 2009 Oct 12, 2009

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Captiv8r wrote:

My sincere apologies folks.

I feel I may have stirred that pot a bit by replying to Claudio and others to continue the conversation. My intent was simply to point out how in some cases it may actually make some sense to move a thread instead of simply advising the user where they should post.

Cheers... Rick

My only participation in the mentioned locked thread was this post saying that the poor lost soul had also posted the same request in another unrelated thread: 3. I did not take any part in the ensuing discussion because it was just a repetition of what already been discussed in a previous thread and was therefore a completely useless repetitive exercise. Plus being completely unrelated with the OP.


And I don't consider it very ethical for a moderator to bait users into re-opening an off topic "conversation". If you wanted to discuss the matter of moving threads, you should have opened your own new thread. We mere users are constantly reminded of this.

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LEGEND ,
Oct 12, 2009 Oct 12, 2009

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LOL - I know you see things through your own perceptions, but had you not posted what you did, there would have been no further discussion as there would have been nothing to discuss. You decided to point out the person was still lost. I simply advised it underscored why moving a thread may have been more helpful in this case.

I know you don't like me. I'm not sure why, perhaps you have the same attitude and opinion as Ann and it's the CE badging. But I can live with that. I don't expect everyone to like me and it doesn't define who I am or diminish any other accomplishments.

In thinking about it, by posting what you did, you yourself could be construed as baiting, no? Instead, you choose to claim I'm at fault because I pointed out that the user wouldn't have posted in yet another incorrect location if the thread had been moved instead.

Cheers... Rick

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LEGEND ,
Oct 12, 2009 Oct 12, 2009

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I know I'm wasting my time trying to argue with an expert in twisting things, but... The link I gave was to a message posted before the one been answered in that thread. As I said when I posted the link: "He posted here first:".


And I have nothing against "Community Experts" as such, and have never said or implied anything of the sort. If you want to refer to something I have said, please quote me. As I am quoting you here for the second time (emphasis added by me this time):

I feel I may have stirred that pot a bit by replying to Claudio and others to continue the conversation.

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LEGEND ,
Oct 12, 2009 Oct 12, 2009

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Claudio,

He already apologized for leading it off topic. Everyone makes

mistakes (even "experts")...

Your comment was ever so slightly off topic. He reacted to your

comment (which in itself was probably fine). His comment caused things

to go really off.

Harbs

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LEGEND ,
Oct 12, 2009 Oct 12, 2009

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A "conversation" about moving posts/threads was completely off topic there, and deserved opening a new thread. As it's asked of us.

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LEGEND ,
Oct 12, 2009 Oct 12, 2009

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Yes, which is why he apologized. Whatever...

Harbs

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LEGEND ,
Oct 12, 2009 Oct 12, 2009

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The point is that he not only led the discussion off topic; he also participated actively in the new/old discussion he had re-opened in that thread. But, as you say, whatever. I'm obviously wasting my time.

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LEGEND ,
Oct 12, 2009 Oct 12, 2009

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It looks like, when a "community expert" is getting the worst of a volley of criticism from the cheap seats, they call in reinforcements. 

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Enthusiast ,
Oct 13, 2009 Oct 13, 2009

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John Joslin wrote:

It looks like, when a "community expert" is getting the worst of a volley of criticism from the cheap seats, they call in reinforcements. 

I think at Phillies games when they do that, the fans throw "D" cell batteries onto the field...

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LEGEND ,
Oct 13, 2009 Oct 13, 2009

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LOL, nope. No "Send three and four pence, we're going to a dance." here.

No reinforcements were needed nor called. So any expression that would seem that way is by pure coincidence alone.

Cheers... Rick

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Explorer ,
Oct 13, 2009 Oct 13, 2009

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Whether or not re-inforcements were called in, the result is the same.

The one thing you are succeeding in doing is creating a huge wall of division, resentment and outright animosity between long-term Adobe Customers (some of us are Customers of more than 20-years standing who started by purchasing Adobe's PostScript Type long before Adobe acquired Photoshop) and Forum Users (who have supported and helped in these Forums since their inception some ten years ago); and the newly-arrived cadre of  "Community Experts".

I have only seen support for the position that the "Moderator" and the "Community Experts" have adopted by two other Users (both of whom are comparative newcomers to the former Adobe Forums) — from everyone else there has been a unanimous and rising crescendo of fury at the way we are being treated.

Any posting that is in the least critical of a Moderator, or one of the "Community Experts", is immediately suppressed. This is dictatorial but cowardly bullying of the worst type because we have no redress except to abandon these Forums.

But then that appears to be your intention. Virtually none of the people who previously posted anything worth reading are posting in the Forums any longer. You have even dropped the "User to User" name of the Forums and it would seem that the "Community Experts" are deliberately trying to suppress any input from the Users.

We USERS are Adobe's Paying Customers (the people who are keeping them in business!)
and you are NOT serving Adobe's interests in any way by treating us and our concerns with total disregard, downright aggression and rudeness.

Removing Posts that are justly critical of the failings in Forum procedures is not only discourteous to Adobe's Paying Customers, it is also an extremely cowardly thing to do because it indicates that you are more interested in protecting your "Community Experts" status (and access to free software?) than in actually making an effort to repair the damage that has been done to these Forums.

Never before have I witnessed anything like the devisiveness and animosity that exists in the Adobe Forum Comments Forum between Users, on one side, and the Moderators, on the other; in any other technical or professional web site — except perhaps for that of Quark XPress.

When QXP was losing market-share (mainly because of their atrocious Customer Service) they attempted to muzzle and suppress all adverse comment on their Forums until they actually closed their forums because the outrage being expressed by their customers was over-whelming!

And look what happened to sales of Quark XPress!

(They even had to resort to manning a Boiler-room Tele-sales campaign — but it was too late and they lost most of their market anyway.)

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LEGEND ,
Oct 13, 2009 Oct 13, 2009

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You are barking up the wrong tree. You need to be barking at Adobe, not a fellow user that has had nothing whatsoever to do with what you are referring to.

Cheers... Rick

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Explorer ,
Oct 13, 2009 Oct 13, 2009

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My post was a direct response to your remark: "No reinforcements were needed nor called. So any expression that would seem that way is by pure coincidence alone."

And your response to me exactly epitomized the rudeness by Moderators and "Community Experts" towards Users of these Forums of which I complained in my message.

You are NOT answering in your capacity as a private "User" — you are operating here with your own agenda as an identified "Community Expert" so my remarks definitely do apply to you.

However, I am taking up this matter with Adobe as well — as you suggested

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LEGEND ,
Oct 13, 2009 Oct 13, 2009

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Just so I'm understanding correctly here...

You decidedly pontificate with yet another diatribe as you have on many other occasions and basically say that Community Experts are to blame for all the forum (if not the world) woes, then you are offended that my response is brief?

Cheers... Rick

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Advocate ,
Oct 13, 2009 Oct 13, 2009

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You decidedly pontificate with yet another diatribe as you have on many other occasions and basically say that Community Experts are to blame for all the forum (if not the world) woes, then you are offended that my response is brief?

I don't think she is pointing blame on just you, I think she is meaning that the way the Experts and Moderators are "using their powers" is conveying negatively on Adobe itself. It seems, as I believe I already pointed out, that there are far more better fits for Experts and Moderators than the ones that have been appointed.

However, I am taking up this matter with Adobe as well — as you suggested

Good luck with that. I have already contacted several Adobe forum members and got nowhere when I asked who was responsible for actually appointing the Moderators and Experts. It seems that it is a top secret committee that even employees know little about. Perhaps it needs to be brought even higher up the chain to someone of management stature.

And Rick, no offense, but it seems as though you might as well stop while you are still somewhat ahead. The longer you continue to plead your case the bigger the hole you seem to be digging.

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Explorer ,
Oct 13, 2009 Oct 13, 2009

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I don't think she is pointing blame on just you, I think she is meaning that the way the Experts and Moderators are "using their powers" is conveying negatively on Adobe itself.

Exactly!

And this is exactly the sort of behaviour in their User Forums, coupled with atrocious Customer Service, which led to the downfall of QXP — once the only accepted page-layout program in the publishing industry but seldom encountered these days.

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LEGEND ,
Oct 13, 2009 Oct 13, 2009

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I understand that Ann isn't pointing at me directly. However, as I am a member of the Community Experts group, I do feel it reflects upon me. Since there aren't many of us that visit here, I feel a certain responsibility to try and lay the facts out and advise that it has nothing to do with a group that has earned recognition for being helpful.

See that's the whole issue right there and the reason why I keep fruitlessly digging myself deeper into the hole. Ann so easily dismisses the entire Community Experts program and blames all Community Experts for the current forum issues and "destruction". That's the part that doesn't sit well with me. It conveys that an entire class of helpful folks she has no clue about other than the fact they are a member of a special group are to blame for all the forum issues when likely none of them had anything whatsoever to do with the issues. From my vantage point it is unfairly misplaced blame and misdirected anger. Why she is so angry I cannot say.

It was not the Community Experts that made the forum selection. It was Adobe. I recall seeing among the CE community that there was lots of vocalization and anguish among the CE community over the loss of NNTP. So what she is lashing out about was not something the CE community recommended.

On a personal note, simply because I've expressed my own views that overall the Jive software was an improvement from my standpoint, I stand up to constant ridicule and admonition. Never once have I suggested to anyone that from their standpoint it's an improvement and should be viewed that way. But it is what it is. We can choose to make the best of it and by doing so help with its improvement, or we can continue to harrass and lash out at every turn.

What I honestly fail to understand is why any discussion here has to turn ugly and cannot be simply discussed in an adult manner. That's what I thought a "discussion forum" was intended to do. Instead, it seems that most threads are simply pounced upon with jeering and goading. No listening or mature thought. Only replies with meanings such as, you are an idiot if you think that or feel that way. And most that are guilty of that behavior are then apalled and shocked when Jochem tries to bring order by locking and deleting threads. As I've said earlier, I've only seen locking and deleting threads in this particular forum. In the other forums where I participate, this never occurs and is not needed. Discussion occurs and different viewpoints are openly expressed without any fear of ramifications, jeering and goading by others.

Perhaps I'm expecting too much of this forum. Certainly it's not the place to discuss forum issues. It only seems to be suited for bashing Adobe and anything Adobe related. So congratulations all, you may count this as your own personal victory. I'm going to step away and unsubscribe now and only participate where I can be helpful to others. After all, that's my purpose for visiting and participating in the forums.

Jochem, good luck!

Rick

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Participant ,
Oct 13, 2009 Oct 13, 2009

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On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 11:01:16AM -0600, Captiv8r uttered:

  What I honestly fail to understand is why any discussion here has to

turn ugly and cannot be simply discussed in an adult manner. That's

what I thought a "discussion forum" was intended to do. Instead, it

seems that most threads are simply pounced upon with jeering and

goading. No listening or mature thought. Only replies with meanings

such as, you are an idiot if you think that or feel that way. And most

that are guilty of that behavior are then apalled and shocked when

Jochem tries to bring order by locking and deleting threads. As I've

said earlier, I've only seen locking and deleting threads in this

particular forum. In the other forums where I participate, this never

occurs and is not needed. Discussion occurs and different viewpoints

are openly expressed without any fear of ramifications, jeering and

goading by others.   Perhaps I'm expecting too much of this forum.

Certainly it's not the place to discuss forum issues. It only seems to

be suited for bashing Adobe and anything Adobe related. So

congratulations all, you may count this as your own personal victory.

I'm going to step away and unsubscribe now and only participate where I

can be helpful to others. After all, that's my purpose for visiting and

participating in the forums.   Jochem, good luck!

Rick you gave up; That's what the inmates trying to run the asylum want!

I wouldn't let the abusive rants from the few bother you. They aren't

representative of most people that use the Adobe Forums.

Stay here -- It's been interesting to see how your reasoned points are just

ignored. It says far more about them (we all know who you are) then it does

you. Hang in there champ!

end

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LEGEND ,
Oct 13, 2009 Oct 13, 2009

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then than

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Enthusiast ,
Oct 13, 2009 Oct 13, 2009

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John Joslin wrote:

then than

zoo?

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