What I don't like in upgraded Forum

[Guest]

Dear Uncle Adobe,

I regret to inform you that some features in new Forum look upset minor amount of users.

Personally I have nothing against how a User's Stuff is displayed and am convinced that embedding 'Correct' answer into original post possesses promising future, but felt it my duty to report about a few complaints.

Although some of your team already interfered, trying to calm a crowd with a promise to turn 'embedding' feature off, the rest issue is not reconciled.

Hope we would be able to agree on some filters that would allow to sort User's Stuff according to

- threads started by a user (all ones, not just 'answered' or 'open' questions);

- time a user participated in (not just time of latest update by someone responded in a thread a user ever participated).

Yours faithfully,

Fuzzy Barsik

[Semaphoric]

I see there's an "unmark as helpful" button. Maybe there could be an "unmark as correct" button.

[the_wine_snob]

Guess that I need to do more original posts, that are questions, to see some of the changes there. Even in beta, that was not something that I tried. Maybe some useful stuff there?

Thanks,

Hunt

[Jacob Bugge]

I agree with Claudio about the seriousness of the OP embedded (supposedly) Correct Answer issue.

When the fair forums were replaced two years and a half ago, I decided to entirely ignore everything about points/correct/helpful answers, apart from observing their effects and reporting back to this forum, and keep posting just (as sillilly) as I always had; and I said so then.

Consequently, I have kept reading threads that I might contribute to and posting answers that I hoped could help the OPs, even time consuming ones with long detailed instructions and images/screenshots, regardless of answer status.

In my experience, the Correct Answer has cut many threads short of what they should/could have been, even before it became embedded in the OP.

Now it is far worse.

Even I, despite my firm determination, now find that the OP embedded (supposedly) Correct Answer makes it hard to persevere: I now sometimes find myself thinking twice before even entering a (supposedly) answered thread, and thrice about contributing.

The obvious effects of the three main points I have raised earlier about it have been very well stated in this thread.

1) It actually/effectively says: Stop. Go no further. All has been said.

2) It breaks the rhythm for anyone actually reading the thread.

3) It separates the answer in question from its context which may be crucial.

[Phillip_M_Jones]

Why not instead of "answered". Just have "helpful" only. That way  additional suggestion could go on.

[Ann Bens]

It even gets worse.

One can award a helpfull answer to ones own post.

http://forums.adobe.com/thread/901868?tstart=0

[Guest]

Not just 'Helpful' but also 'Correct'.

Guess, it's not a problem. The problem is that it doesn't increase one's points... <img src="http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/standart/cray.gif">

[Claudio_González1]

But it shouldn't matter, according to some. We seasoned participants can quickly learn to ignore all this rubbish. Although, as Jacob says, it's not so easy with "solutions" embedded in the opening message.

[the_wine_snob]

Yes. My biggest concern would be that others coming to the thread later (now that Search seems to have been fixed), and seeing ONLY the one embedded answer, and ignoring great material further down the thread. However, similar issues have existed from the old layout, where many later readers would skip over early replies, and focus only on later ones. All too often, the skipped replies had the solution.

Hence the frequent, humorous reply, "Nobody ever reads Post ____ !"

Guess that there is no iron-clad perfection.

Hunt

[Claudio_González1]

Bill Hunt wrote:

Yes. My biggest concern would be that others coming to the thread later (now that Search seems to have been fixed), and seeing ONLY the one embedded answer, and ignoring great material further down the thread. However, similar issues have existed from the old layout, where many later readers would skip over early replies, and focus only on later ones. All too often, the skipped replies had the solution.

Hence the frequent, humorous reply, "Nobody ever reads Post ____ !"

Guess that there is no iron-clad perfection.

Hunt

Bill, I know this has been getting worse since the great change of some years ago, but this last straw is not a straw, it's the full trunk of a gigantic tree. And it worries me to see some participants minimizing this problem and even ridiculizing it on the grounds that "we'll soon get used to it". Maybe we will, but newcomers will only see that prominently displayed message embedded in the opening one and implying that it is the correct answer to their problem, when we all know that for non trivial questions there is rarely a single correct answer.

I very much fear that this new feature will encourage newcomers to never learn to take full advantage of the forums.

[the_wine_snob]

Ann,

I just saw the same thing in one of the PrElements threads. That was news to me!

Hunt

[Claudio_González1]

You mean, embedding helpful answers within the opening post? I am afraid that I don't like the idea any better...

[joe_bloe_premiere]

Why not instead of "answered". Just have "helpful" only. That way  additional suggestion could go on.

Phillip, I think you're on to something.

Maybe...

the OP should be only able to designate 'Helpful' answers (maybe increased to 3),

but the OP can mark the thread as 'Answered' (without specifying a 'Correct' reply).

At that point, a moderator could go in and specify a particularly succinct

and complete response/solution as the officially 'Correct' reply (if one exists),

that would then be embedded into the original post.

I could live with that.

[the_wine_snob]

Joe,

Sounds like a good plan there. That might force others to read ALL of the "useful answers."

You two have got my vote.

Hunt

[Phillip_M_Jones]

If the upper crust wants a button that has been answered they could change to "question was answered", and not tied it to specific reply. I still like my other idea better.

[~graffiti]

Have we always been able to delete a response or is that new?

I wouldn't be surprised if it's always been there and I just haven't noticed it.

[Jacob Bugge]

Deleting an answer is new, grafitti; deleting an OP was possible while still unanswered. I have created a first post in vain quite a few times over the years, only to find that there was no longer a thread.

[Claudio_González1]

~graffiti wrote:

Have we always been able to delete a response or is that new?

I wouldn't be surprised if it's always been there and I just haven't noticed it

I am sure that it is new, but unless every deleted message is replaced by a note stating who deleted it, when, and why, it can be more dangerous than beneficial.

[~graffiti]

I was thinking the same thing to some degree. I've seen it misused in the old forums. There wasn't officially a delete button but for those in the know, you could delete posts.

But I never saw it misused in the forums I frequent now. Just in one particular one a long time ago in a galaxy far away.

[~graffiti]

It would come in handy for a fumblefinger like me who may be giving a Windows specific answer in the Mac forum or vice-versa.

[Phillip_M_Jones]

Claudio González wrote:

~graffiti wrote:

Have we always been able to delete a response or is that new?

I wouldn't be surprised if it's always been there and I just haven't noticed it

I am sure that it is new, but unless every deleted message is replaced by a note stating who deleted it, when, and why, it can be more dangerous than beneficial.

No this is something new. We have been able to edit, but only in the window between posting and when someone replies to your specific question or answer.  But never ever have we been able delete post. I like the concept of being able to delete a post. when you posted a dumbheaded question or answer. But so many people here post replies almost by the time it shows up. So despite the possible embrassment. I don't think we should have it . Or if we keep it. should come up with a message when you click replay that says this post as been withdrawn.

[Jacob Bugge]

I am strongly against any labelling of an answer as Correct (or even Helpful) by anyone other than the OP: it can only make things worse, there is no way to know what the OP finds correct/best, and often a thread may rest for quite a while, sometimes months, before the OP returns. And what about the poor souls receiving emails?

Any intervention may cause dispute, and (in itself or through dispute) disturb (the flow of) the thread.

It is also against the open and friendly way of the forums where moderators never or rarely have to do anything. Let us keep it that way.

I have seen no signs of moderation in the Illustrator (Windows) forum since Len Hewitt retired as host by the end of 2007. There was never much to moderate, and everything happened and happens in a friendly, helpful, and free, way.

[Peter Grainge]

Just sometimes in the categories I work in we see someone trying to be helpful and suggesting an action that varies from being a bit wrong to being downright dangerous in that it can break many things causing hours of work. The moderator or someone else can point that out and in an ideal world the OP would change the label. That's not always going to happen though.

We rarely step in wearing the moderator hat but I prefer that moderators can moderate when it is necessary to stop others being led into an unintended trap.

[Jacob Bugge]

You point out another danger, Peter, which has become worse with the embedding in the OP.

Obviously, it may be necessary to intervene, but the utmost restraint should be exercised; and in any case, it may be too late for the OP in question.

[the_wine_snob]

Jacob,

In the previous Jive, that potential existed, but now could be amplified with the embedding.

Though not potentially "dangerous," I will cite an example, where the info was just wrong for the current version of an Adobe product. Poster had a question, and several of us answered it (myself included), based on earlier versions of that program. I went into detail on some limitations of a particular operation, based on my experience and reading of that operation in all previous versions. What I was unaware of, was that Adobe had changed things, and in some big ways. As this was an operation that I seldom used, I had not encountered it in the new version. Our MOD was quick, and kind to point out that things had, indeed changed, and that the OP COULD do what they wished, with no limitations. If my response had been marked as "Correct," and embedded into the OP, I would have wanted it removed ASAP, since it was now incorrect. Having the ability for one with a MOD console (many employees have those, along with the actual MOD's) is a great feature, even if it does create the potential for more work for them.

I also completely agree on the intervention considerations. Sometimes, it is a tough call to intervene, and I feel fortunate to participate in forums, where the MOD's use great restraint, but still do a wonderful job - usually totally thankless.

Hunt

[Semaphoric]

> I feel fortunate to participate in forums, where the MOD's use great restraint, but still do a wonderful job - usually totally thankless.

Totally agree. I've been to some discussion boards with trigger-happy mods, and it does seem to stifle things.

I'm a mod on another board (which is sadly dying), and there's usually a lot of discussion on the private staff-only area before the hammer comes down.

Except for spammers, of course.