Why are we still moving threads?

Advocate ,
Aug 19, 2009 Aug 19, 2009

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The thread "New to Adobe Flex" which was posted here is now in the Flex forum.  Wouldn't it have been less confusing to the OP if it was just left here with a note saying to post in the other forum?  Who knows if they'll see their answers now..  if the OP had asked for it to be moved that's fine but is moving a thread and leaving no indication it was here such a good idea?

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correct answers 1 Correct answer

Engaged , Aug 19, 2009 Aug 19, 2009
We all know the reason... the high-handed, i know what's best attitude. There was a wrong post here by some poor dude, yesterday or the day before, with a question on Premiere. i replied pointing him to the right forum... poof! the entire thread was shifted...The deterioration of these forums with the introduction of Jive is matched only by the deterioration of the quality of moderation...

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Advisor ,
Aug 19, 2009 Aug 19, 2009

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I cant speak for all Hosts, but when i move a thread, I PM the OP with a link to the thread in its new location.

I wasnt invloved in the thread you mention, but based on the title it seems the flex forum is the logical place for it,.

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LEGEND ,
Aug 19, 2009 Aug 19, 2009

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Curt Wrigley wrote:

I cant speak for all Hosts, but when i move a thread, I PM the OP with a link to the thread in its new location.

PM-ing people, especially newcomers, doesn't mean much.  It took me several weeks to find out that when Your Stuff is glowing slightly orange, that I had a PM.  Even now that I know, it is very easy to overlook when it does.

Moving topics to the right place seems to be a good idea to me, but only if a "shortcut" is left in the original forum, with a pointer to the new location.  Every forum software that I have ever used can do that.

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Engaged ,
Aug 19, 2009 Aug 19, 2009

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We all know the reason... the high-handed, i know what's best attitude. There was a wrong post here by some poor dude, yesterday or the day before, with a question on Premiere. i replied pointing him to the right forum... poof! the entire thread was shifted...

The deterioration of these forums with the introduction of Jive is matched only by the deterioration of the quality of moderation...

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Advisor ,
Aug 19, 2009 Aug 19, 2009

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So you are suggesting its wrong to move threads when they are in the wrong forum?

The premiere thread I moved to the premiere forum where it belongs.  I PMd the OP with a link to its new location.

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LEGEND ,
Aug 19, 2009 Aug 19, 2009

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I wouldn't say it is completely wrong; but I did say that I think it is less confusing. Just reading the puzzled first sentence of this message is better than any reason iI could give: 3.

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Engaged ,
Aug 19, 2009 Aug 19, 2009

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Curt Wrigley wrote:

So you are suggesting its wrong to move threads when they are in the wrong forum?

The premiere thread I moved to the premiere forum where it belongs.  I PMd the OP with a link to its new location.

You're being over helpful where it's not called for. You could see there was already a post redirecting the OP. There was absolutely no need for you to butt in and add to the confusion. as it occurred to you that people will access that thread with the post redirecting to the same forum and wonder what the hell is going on? Has it occured to you that the others who saw the reply to the OP may wonder why the thread vanished?

The answer is no. Because there's no thought from your end.. just a knee-jerk reaction where it's not called for. As a moderator, perhaps your time would be better served by telling Adobe how the present forums stink and how they're losing regulars... the ones who are the serious contributors. But will you do that? No... you're happy running around, deleting threads and posts, moving posts aimlessly and replying with completely meaningless statements as in your replies in either the 'Joke...' or '14 posts...' threads.

Please do not take this post as abuse aimed at you personally. It is a critique of the large number of moderators floating around nowadays.

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Advocate ,
Aug 19, 2009 Aug 19, 2009

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Well it wasn't Curt that moved this one.  Sending a PM definitely does help and doing that shows you're at least being thoughtful about it, which is good.  But I do agree with the others that it can still lead to confusion (of others, or very new users who may not notice the PM feature of the forums right away) and that it's "overly helpful when it's not needed".

I suspect the problem will solve itself as our mods get burned out from doing so much stuff, but look at it this way-- leaving it there (maybe posting a link to the correct forum) is less work!  What we need are lazy mods that only do the bare minimum moderation, when action is blatantly required.

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Advocate ,
Aug 19, 2009 Aug 19, 2009

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JayJhabrix wrote:

The answer is no. Because there's no thought from your end.

There is lots and lots of thought about this. Both as to how it is supposed to work, and as to how we can best work within the constraints placed by the software and enviroment.

How it is supposed to work is that people enter their question just anywhere. As they type, their message is analyzed and keywords are extracted. For instance names of products, operating systems etc. Together they for the tags for that particular post. Obviously users get the option to alter the automatically generated tags. Then when the message is posted the tags are finalized. Users can subscribe to tag clouds, either predefined or clouds they create themselves. They get notified of any post that matches their tag cloud. As they respond, they add their own tags thereby altering the tag cloud for the thread. As a consequence, the thread moves. It is still possible to combine this with a traditional forum approach, threads just appear in the forum that is closest in the N-dimensional space of the tag cloud.

Take the 'New to Adobe Flex' thread. When posted that would have the default tags "Adobe Flex Multimedia business applications intranet exams database interactions". That would make it end up somewhere near Flex-space, because as the only mentioned product name that would weigh heaviest. Then somebody provides an answer with a link to some documentation, and the thread moves through space in the direction of the Learning resources-space.

Unfortunately, it doesn't really work that way here. There are some limitations in the software (tags exists, tag clouds exist and you can even subscribe to them), but there is no N-dmensional space calculation. And then the configuration provided by Adobe took away the tags, tag clouds and tag cloud subscriptions. So if we want to nudge a thread in the right direction we can't just post and thereby not just answers, but also tags. The only thing way we can do is move the thread. So should we?

There is no reason to presume the OP is less likely to find his message. If he was aware of a forum structure in the first place, he wouldn't have posted in the wrong forum. Moving a thread changes neither its URL, nor the URL of any post inside it, so there is no effect on bookmarks, the links in the OP's profile or email notifications.

There is a chance of confusion for others. Both in the source and the destination forum. In the source forum that goes for unsubscribed users who have seen the thread and have not responded. Subscribed users or users who have responded have the link available to them. In the destination forum there is the chance there may be confusion by subscribed users (did I miss notifications?). Some of that can be mitigated by posting a note with an explanation, some of that can not.

Then on one hand it is extra work (though that can be significantly automated), but on the other hand it has the long term benefit of less duplication and better search results. (If only people would search before asking.)

So weighing that all I typically move them unless:

- the OP has asked the same question in multiple places (note + lock)

- the OP has already started a thread in the correct forum (point to other thread + lock);

- the OP is guided to the correct forum by name and link more then 2 hours old (ignore, lock if the thread continues offtopic).

The move process typically consists of a move, post an explanation (after the move so email notifications in the new forum get triggered) and unsubscribe from the thread. I am still working on adding an automated PM to the OP if he isn't subscribed to his own thread (I can see who is subscribed to what through the webservices).

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LEGEND ,
Aug 19, 2009 Aug 19, 2009

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My experience in these forums indicates that the until now usual practice of directing lost newcomers to the correct forum is simple enough, needs no further implementation, is very effective in most cases, and helps newcomers in orienting themselves in the forums.


I find the idea of automatically functioning forums, in which messages are gradually moved by software to increasingly more relevant sub-forums, in which messages are deleted and threads locked according to fixed rules, and the such, to be frankly terrifying. Specially considering that the present version of the forums isn't even capable of managing much simpler tasks, that manifest software errors cannot be solved after several months of being detected, and that some problems that are said to be solved are not available because the forums are still inexplicably using version 2.5.7 of the software.


In my personal opinion, it would be much better to concentrate efforts in making these forums fully and correctly operative than in devising new and not really necessary schemes that could eventually make the forum even less operative by overtaxing the software and the personnel in charge of it.

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Community Beginner ,
Sep 13, 2009 Sep 13, 2009

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jochemd wrote:


There is lots and lots of thought about this. Both as to how it is supposed to work, and as to how we can best work within the constraints placed by the software and enviroment.<deleted... exceedingly verbose>

Hmmm...

"Verbosity is the refuge of the imprecise thought..."

Sorry... that was a misquote... the actual quote is:

"Verbosity is the ultimate refuge of the imprecise thought..."

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Advocate ,
Sep 14, 2009 Sep 14, 2009

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I'm not sure how "N-dimensional space of the tag clouds" etc relate to moderators moving threads and confusing people.  I've never cared for "tags" and definitely not "subscribing to tags", MOST especially if they're automatically generated from some stupid computer algorithm.  It's just some bored developers trying to figure out a way to improve the wheel when we've already got one that works fine.

Kinda given up trying to figure all this out anyway, what's the point?

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Mentor ,
Sep 14, 2009 Sep 14, 2009

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Kind of like a tag line I have on my signature I have in my email signature. It isn't grammatically correct (intentional) but it gets the point across.

"If it ain't broke, Don't fix it!"


ain't is a mountain colloquialism that orignally was a contraction for am not if following the word I. But can also mean is not if it follows the word it.

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Advocate ,
Sep 14, 2009 Sep 14, 2009

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PjonesCET wrote:


ain't is a mountain colloquialism that orignally was a contraction for am not if following the word I. But can also mean is not if it follows the word it.

Unfortunately many times software people use the excuse of "improvement" to "fix" things that work fine.  And sometimes it really is better, but... often not.  Which is why you don't commit to the change until after you're certain it's better.  AFAIK we didn't even get to see a beta/test version (did we?), the forums were simply jived up one day with no turning back.  No rollback contingency plan at all?  Nothing at all could be done? 

It was a huge, huge mistake to "fix" WebX leaving NO PATH OF RETREAT to go back if Jive turned out to be the disaster it is. 

If Adobe was an army, we'd all be dead in the fields right about now.

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Advocate ,
Sep 14, 2009 Sep 14, 2009

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There was indeed quite a busy test version. Most of the points that have been made since were made then, pretty vociferously. I really don't know why anyone bothered to set it up.

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Advocate ,
Sep 15, 2009 Sep 15, 2009

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Well that much is good at least.  Kinda sad that I even had the impression it wasn't even done (just goes to show how much good it did), and I still think the exit strategy of "stick with Jiveware under all circumstances with no possibility of return" is a mistake.

Was the login timeout bug even found during the beta?  If it was--wow.... just, wow..

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LEGEND ,
Sep 15, 2009 Sep 15, 2009

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Well, if one may call "beta" the preview we had previous to the implementation of the new forums... You may want to take a look at old threads such as this:

http://forums.adobe.com/thread/294122?tstart=900

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LEGEND ,
Sep 15, 2009 Sep 15, 2009

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An ominous quote from February:


"Same old same old. It ain't broke, so let's fix it.....


This login farce is just a portent of things to come."


You could find a similar reference from that time to everything that is still wrong with the forums.


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Advocate ,
Sep 15, 2009 Sep 15, 2009

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That thread is actually some good comedy, although a bit depressing at the same time, but all I can do is laugh this whole fiasco now.

Yeah I guess 'beta' implies they intended to fix the problems before the release, so obviously that's a poor choice of words. 

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Advocate ,
Sep 15, 2009 Sep 15, 2009

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LATEST

UUUUUUUUUUGH I mean, who made the decision to go ahead with a completely broken authentication process????  This pisses me off (sorry if that pee-pee word get's *'ed by the JivewarePoliceFilter©) the more I think about it.

Can't we... test a little before we do things?  And... actually perhaps even react to problems found?    How could that happen with a large company like this?

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Mentor ,
Aug 19, 2009 Aug 19, 2009

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Curt Wrigley wrote:

So you are suggesting its wrong to move threads when they are in the wrong forum?

The premiere thread I moved to the premiere forum where it belongs.  I PM'd the OP with a link to its new location.

The problem with the moving of post, is like what happened to me yesterday. I was reading a thread here in this forum. Next time I went to thread I was unceremoniously dumped into the Adobe Premier Forum. I had to post to find out why I was there. And then unsubscribe from the thread. Only the person needing the moving should end up in the moved location not everyone else.

Met a nice fellow that was eveidently one of the regulars or the moderators named WineTaster. His picture shows two glasses of wine. welcoming me to the group then ROBO-Cop came in and explained what happened/ Then I unsubscribed.

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LEGEND ,
Aug 19, 2009 Aug 19, 2009

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Wow, so I've now earned the name of RoboCop!

I tend to agree with Curt. I don't find it confusing whatsoever to move a thread to where it really belongs. After all, if the user wound up posting in this forum to begin with, it's rather obvious to me they are totally confused and don't know where they are. So how will they find their way back here later?

I know there are lots of Jive haters here and I fall into what appears to be a minority with my affinity for the new format, but one of the really cool things is that when you post or reply to a post, you are automatically subscribed to that post. This means any replies come to you via E-Mail. So it shouldn't matter if the thread were moved to Martha Stewart's house. Replies will get to the OP.

I know if I were to accidentally post in the wrong forum I'd much rather see someone move my thread automatically to where those that can help me will possibly answer it. I would find it a bit on the rude side and feel chastised to simply be advised I was in the wrong place and to go post again in the correct place. I would feel it was imposing a penalty on me for being in the wrong place to begin with.

And for those of you that are thinking about suggesting that E-Mail subscriptions can be turned off, so what if the user does that? How will they find their way back then? I'll just say that if they are lost enough to be posting in the wrong place, it's highly unlikely that they are savvy enough with the forums to have figured out how to unsubscribe. Heck, even some of us that have been here for a while don't seem to fully understand how the subscription process works.

Cheers... Rick

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Advocate ,
Aug 19, 2009 Aug 19, 2009

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Wow, so I've now earned the name of RoboCop!

I tend to agree with Curt. I don't find it confusing whatsoever to move a thread to where it really belongs. After all, if the user wound up posting in this forum to begin with, it's rather obvious to me they are totally confused and don't know where they are. So how will they find their way back here later?

The thread I have seen that was copied was still active in the Forum Comments and in the forum that it was moved to. You could post in that thread in either location and it would show up both here and there. I agree the threads need to be moved to the correct place. I don't know about other users but I hate the email subscriptions and do not use them (to me they are no better than spam), however...I do go back to the forums and follow up on topics that I have read. I think that if a thread is moved the OP needs to be notified via email, pm, etc. But I also think that it needs to be posted in the thread that it has been moved. On the thread that I mentioned above, it was showing up in BOTH places...so people were still telling the guy the go post in the correct forum when in fact he was already there (it was just showing up here as well).

Another thing that may be causing all these misplaced posts is the whole design of this wonderful forum.

I go to the Photoshop Mac forum, hit New and this is what comes up :

Picture 1.png

Now you tell me, why are all these new users posting here? This is not user friendly. There is NO reason that I need to be asked where to post, it should automatically go to the forum I am in period.

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Advocate ,
Aug 19, 2009 Aug 19, 2009

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Ozzwoman9 wrote:

Now you tell me, why are all these new users posting here? This is not user friendly. There is NO reason that I need to be asked where to post, it should automatically go to the forum I am in period.

You are 100% correct, the Jiveware interface here is completely stupid.  (And don't you just love how it animates the box, all slow, specifically to waste another second of your time?)

But, as a tip-- try clicking the "Start new discussion" or whatever it's called link in the right column, that won't make you choose a stupid forum.  Of course this fact does nothing to help new people.

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Advocate ,
Aug 19, 2009 Aug 19, 2009

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But, as a tip-- try clicking the "Start new discussion" or whatever it's called link in the right column, that won't make you choose a stupid forum.  Of course this fact does nothing to help new people.

Honestly I surf the web at work so I have my window shrunk left to right and I hardly ever look to that side. Perhaps if that were moved... Although it would seem that the function does exist to go straight to the forum you are in, so why/who is the one that decided to make the top bar option different?

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