Coldfusion 8 (I want it)

That metaphor is lost on the people who are of the mindset that any given web project can consist of only one platform.

In today's internet, you can use CF for what it does best, and use .NET, javascript, PHP, etc for what it does best (whatever that is), and comfortably co-exist.

There is no reason for your development to be a one trick pony, unless you find a platform that supports everything you need.

Now, as soon as I encounter a project that CF cannot accomodate, I will walk the talk and implement one of those other technologies. In the meantime, I will keep being productive with CF.

This is not an "all or nothing" scenario.

Thanks Michael,

I just needed to facts not all this fighting. Using the word 'better' is subjective and there are so many variables that are different from case to case. For my specific need Coldfusion is the option. I am not developing enterprise architecture, or ERP systems, or crazy things like that. I am building web applications some are so simple that it is insane to even consider .NET. On the other hand, I create a lot of C# console apps where I can take full advantage of the technology (file handling and such). For example I would not use Coldfusion to crunch through 1.5 million XML files and consolidate them...

IMHO, ASP.NET has a lot more work to do on the 'web front' to convince me that it is competitive with Coldfusion. It would basically have to provide everything that Coldfusion 8 provides. And when I say that, I mean that one individual can do everything from design, development, troubleshooting, administration, etc.

Adobe empowers people by making them more productive. Coldfusion empowers me as a developer and an administrator of Coldfusion websites. I don't feel that when I use Microsoft technology. I mean I can't be the only one that feels this way, right?

Again thank you for supporting me in this discussion.

^ same dude (my god you are a sneak)...I mean supporting your own comments as if you were a second person. Nice. You still don't have a leg to stand on. So I guess you should move along ;)

re: you will find that databinding and
gridview/formview or whatever control you are using begins to lose its
purpose.

I sometimes wonder what world some of you guys live in. Databinding has a
purpose, and serves it really well. Less code, faster apps.

re: then programmatically create a connection string in your web.config

I don't know anybody who creates connection strings in web.config! If they
do, they clearly don't know asp.net. The second you use a grid view, object
datasource, or any of hundreds of data aware components, a wizard generates
the connection string in web.config for you. Its foolish and error prone to
do this by hand. I have no clue at all where you are getting your
inforamtion from, but its the opposite of the reality.

re: Then you have do the code behind page, call the connections and actually
do something with the form variables, like insert or update.

This is quite amusing - you act like you have no idea about the grid view
(and other controls) abilities to handle all of this for you with zero code.
Or how, if you want, you can 'plug in' via events to take complete control
of all or some of the process. It's like you don't know about databinding or
item templates. I suspect this is becuase you don't know a single thing
about any of this!

re: You can't in 'real world' 'practical scenarios' say that ASP.NET is
faster, or
better looking than CF.

Far more, as in millions upon millions more, people believe you are wrong,
and have chosen asp.net. Most chose it becuase of the very strengths you
seemingly have no idea about. Technically, you don't really know what you
are saying. Its clear that you are speaking based purely on your 'feelings'
or 'emotions' and thats just a little silly.

re: And Mister Compag how can you compare that to the cfform were
everything can
be set like the default values, error handling, messages, etc.

How can I compare? Easy, asp.net does all this and far more. It's one of the
major areas to choose when wanting to demonstate an asp.net strength over
CF, classic asp, and php. Did you genuinely not know that asp.net has errror
handling, validation, auto edit/insert/read, databinding, item templates,
built in ajax support and generally lots more features than CFFORM? I
suspect you had no idea about any of this when you made that comment.












"frank_tudor" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:f8rhg1$esn$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Campag you give the perfect world example. But if you go into any
> practical
> application development with ASP.NET, you will find that databinding and
> gridview/formview or whatever control you are using begins to lose its
> purpose.
> So then you are forced to drag form elements and then coding the
> form/error
> handling, then programmatically create a connection string in your
> web.config
> file. Then you have do the code behind page, call the connections and
> actually
> do something with the form variables, like insert or update. Then you get
> something that looks and feels more familiar to asp classic. Don't forget
> you
> postback to either hide the form variables and say thank you or redirect
> the
> user to another page.
>
> And Mister Compag how can you compare that to the cfform were everything
> can
> be set like the default values, error handling, messages, etc. Then
> skipping
> all the database crap (since it is registered with the server), and then
> creating a simple cfif statement for the form submission response and
> insert/update cfquery code.
>
> You can't in 'real world' 'practical scenarios' say that ASP.NET is
> faster, or
> better looking than CF. Unless you are a Microsoft paid operative here to
> cause trouble...If that is the case, you should really spend your free
> time
> helping the poor suckers on the asp.net forums figure out how to run their
> $300
> copy of Visual Studio to over their new $150-$600 copy of Windows Vista.
>

Campag you give the perfect world example. But if you go into any practical application development with ASP.NET, you will find that databinding and gridview/formview or whatever control you are using begins to lose its purpose. So then you are forced to drag form elements and then coding the form/error handling, then programmatically create a connection string in your web.config file. Then you have do the code behind page, call the connections and actually do something with the form variables, like insert or update. Then you get something that looks and feels more familiar to asp classic. Don't forget you postback to either hide the form variables and say thank you or redirect the user to another page.

And Mister Compag how can you compare that to the cfform were everything can be set like the default values, error handling, messages, etc. Then skipping all the database crap (since it is registered with the server), and then creating a simple cfif statement for the form submission response and insert/update cfquery code.

You can't in 'real world' 'practical scenarios' say that ASP.NET is faster, or better looking than CF. Unless you are a Microsoft paid operative here to cause trouble...If that is the case, you should really spend your free time helping the poor suckers on the asp.net forums figure out how to run their $300 copy of Visual Studio to over their new $150-$600 copy of Windows Vista.

Thank you DueNorth2007...

And that brings up a good point. As I was learning .NET, I was amazed at how quickly I was out there looking for things, CFX/UDF equivalents, saying to myself "someone must have done this before". I found them, but they all wanted cash money let me give you an example.

In one of my projects, my boss wants me to provide pie charts. I agree pie charts would communicate ideas effectively. But then I don't know the system draw stuff in .NET nor do I have the time to dick with it. So I found a package that could solve the problem...

Here is what I found: http://www.dotnetcharting.com/?gaw for $395 (one website) or $995 for a server license so you can use it on more than one IP.

Hmmm.. Coldfusion includes this with there server package. And I just use the cfchart stuff to build it..and it works and is beautiful. I don't know how dotnetcharting works or how you filter information to it.

Ok next. I need an O/R mapping tool. Basically a crud/rad tool that allows fast development of your forms (most common development excersise in the web world).

Great I go out and found tierDeveloper, which was a useful tool. The cost $1,500 plus maintance and support for $800.

So the price goes up.. Of course, but VS express version are free. Yea...not really there are limitations to the free version, and to use the tools above you need to have Standard or Professional installed. $300.00 plus I need a server license for Windows 2003 (web edition is $400) on new egg currently.

Then you get into your database problems. SQL Server 2005 Express Edition cannot import or export database or tables. So you have to get the Standard version of that. This is a cost I cannot get around because I like SQL Server however it is 5 grand (sheesh)

What about the design side of things. Basically the websites that are generated from VS look just like crap. To get things to look nice you have to go into the properties screens for everything. My god you could make yourself insane to get things just right.

Microsoft has a solution for you but it just out of beta RC candidate 1.0 and it is called Silverlight...Great...

Well I'm going to stop here. You can see where I am going with this.

Out of the box, the cost for solutions is cheaper both in man hours, and price. I will cough up the $1300 for Coldfusion 8 any day.

But guys come on. I think the best part of Coldfusion are the developers and the Adobe relationship to its community. Head over to asp.net forums and submit something to there 'moderated' forum. If this forum was moderated like theirs Campag would have more difficult chance of causing flame wars.

They do that for that very reason. They just filter the questions and make sure they are worded just right and it goes to the right place. It so nice and beautiful and friendly...gosh...

Well if anyone else wants to give me more examples or reasons 'BESIDES' Campag I would love to hear it...

And don't forget Railo...the 2.0 RC is wicked fast! And cheap to boot. It may end up being one of the best options for low-cost RAD available. And I've been really impressed by how compatible with CFMX code it is...but the speed is what really gets your attention.

Get CF version of Blue Dragon. It is from Atlanta software.
They had servlet exec...i used before all App server came to market...it was great.

i head Blue Dragon is better than Java version of CF.

Cuz .NET rocks...Java go no ware.....Damm slow....Millions of line of code to do little things.

Actually I did a report on .NET vs CF, and we went CF since there is no .NET developers at their location and since the backend here is JAVA base (IBM WebSphere). Going CF is a no brainer.

Here are the points which won the case:

- .NET is good but to get all the components separately (e.g. Verity search engine, dynamic image generation, WYSISYG HTML editor) ... they would be components which would need to be purchased separately which would add up to the .NET cost (making it closer to CF). Also they would likely be from various 3rd party companies which would be harder to integrate vs having it coded into a TAG already for you to use.

- The amount of code in most cases should be less with CF. This of course depends how well you are coding but overall CF requires less lines of code vs .NET (database connections, form generation, etc.).

- .NET is pretty much MS based and you will be stuck with Microsoft. With CF can support more platform then .NET natively.

- On the flip side, .NET can be more powerful but for presentation (Flash, PDF generation, AJAX, forms), it definately loses to CF and if you don't really need to code the backend stuff (if it is already done or are applications already), then CF would be the FASTER way to get a project from concept to live.

As for a .NET and CF collaboration demo, find a backend (or even front end) .NET application they have and basically make a new front end in using the new CFLAYOUT/CFWINDOW/CFPOD tags to display the information within a few hours (or a day if you need more time). The boss will be surprised on how fast it was done and how nicely it is presented. To push the point further, after you present it and he likes it, allow it to be converted to a PDF document with a few more tags. You all know how upper management loves reports. The development speed and the nice presentation will be the key in pushing your point across.

Hope this helps and good luck.

re: Beside as
far as making a great looking site CF wins

You are wrong. Even most people here would agree on that. CF doesn't play
any part in your site "looking great". It's almost like you don't yet know
what coldfusion actually is.

re: Have you ever been able to get your site map
> and controls to match perfectly?

Of course I have, why wouldn't I? Thats the whole point of the control. I'd
have to go out of my way to make them not match!! (Which, by the way, you
can do by responding to its events) Either MS made a control that doesn't
work, or you just don't know how to use it.

re" > The .NET controls for gridview and formview do odd things and
generates a
> <table> structure not <div>s

Tables are often used to presnet tabular data. Div's are rarely used for
this and with good reason, tables are , oddly, for presenting tabular data.

You tak like CF is a good design tool, makes your site look great, and
compare it to CSS. Let me just say that I think you are lacking some
fundamental understanding of what CF actually is.

re: > You know I read somewhere that Microsoft development products actually
kill
> the innovative thinking of designers and developers.

Thats some product to be able to do that!! Actaully, that comment was made
years ago and it was made about Visual Basic 6. This was true to some
degree, but this has nothing at all to do with dot net and VS.Net. So again,
incorrect.

re: Coldfusion at the end of the day is so fun to use and so fast!!

Maybe fun, but slow, so terribly slooooow!!



"frank_tudor" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:f8n9pq$5on$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Campag, you kind of created a flame war. NOT what I was looking for.
> Beside as
> far as making a great looking site CF wins. .NET design stuff is
> cumbersome
> and set in Properties windows. Have you ever been able to get your site
> map
> and controls to match perfectly? Because I haven't...ever...
>
> The .NET controls for gridview and formview do odd things and generates a
> <table> structure not <div>s I don't have any granular control and
> everything
> comes of feeling half baked. So when you say oh the IDE this the IDE
> that.
> The VS IDE is a tremendous pain in the ass and on the design level it is
> like a
> mouth breathing swamp beast compaired to the natural human mind Coldfusion
> and
> CSS.
>
> You know I read somewhere that Microsoft development products actually
> kill
> the innovative thinking of designers and developers. Why must it be this
> way.
>
>
> Coldfusion at the end of the day is so fun to use and so fast!! I develop
> fast, it performs fast. I feel less frustrated and WAY more productive.
>
> I can list out dry business reasons if you want, but I am running late to
> work.
>