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lwmsmd
Inspiring
February 20, 2023
Question

Apple Pro XDR Display color gamut P3-65

  • February 20, 2023
  • 3 replies
  • 5329 views

When using this display and color space above, is it best to convert a photo taken in the Adobe RGB 1998 space to an image with the profile "Image P3" to match the gamut of the monitor? Or is it best to leave the photo in Adobe RGB and expect to have some "clipping of colors?" I have read that the profile P3-65 represents about 85% of the colors available in Adobe RGB. This appears to especially confusing when I try to print an image.

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    3 replies

    Conrad_C
    Community Expert
    Community Expert
    February 21, 2023
    quote

    When using this display and color space above, is it best to convert a photo taken in the Adobe RGB 1998 space to an image with the profile "Image P3" to match the gamut of the monitor? Or is it best to leave the photo in Adobe RGB and expect to have some "clipping of colors?"

    By @lwmsmd

     

    If your largest concern is printing, your reference is the print, not the display, so there is no need to convert the file to serve the display. Edit it as best as you can within the display’s color gamut, and then when you print it will be subject to the limitations of the ink + paper color gamut.

     

    Although you can be concerned with clipping, keep this perspective in mind: Although a P3 display might not cover all of the same colors as Adobe RGB, both P3 and Adobe RGB cover a much larger gamut than the roughly sRGB displays that professionals edited print jobs on for decades. So a P3 display is still a huge improvement over the past.

    quote

    I have read that the profile P3-65 represents about 85% of the colors available in Adobe RGB. This appears to especially confusing when I try to print an image.

    By @lwmsmd

     

    An important thing to remember is that percentage comparisons of color gamuts are not very useful. The reason is that the 3D shape of real world color gamuts is not uniform, not a perfect sphere or cube. Their shapes are highly irregular. One misinterpretation from reading that percentage is to conclude that P3 covers fewer colors. But that is not true, or at least it’s incomplete, because it goes both ways. The irregular shapes mean that it is also true that Adobe RGB covers less than 90% of colors in P3. 

     

    In the 3D comparison below, you see that neither gamut fully covers the other, so what they really do is cover different similar gamuts. P3 D65 is shown in gray, so you can see that over some colors it falls short of Adobe RGB, but in other colors P3 D65 extends further than Adobe RGB. So actually, neither is fully superior to the other…both are great wide gamuts.

     

     

    Another major problem with a percentage comparison is that it doesn’t tell you which colors are missing in the percentage they don’t have in common. How much do those missing colors matter? Are they mostly purples, but your images don’t use purple so the difference doesn’t matter? Or does the color difference affect colors in your landscapes or product photos, so it does matter?

     

    Also, a percentage comparison tells you nothing about how well the display color gamut covers matches up with the gamut of the ink and paper combination you will use. What you see below, left to right are: First, a common CMYK print gamut (Coated FOGRA39), then how much that print gamut is covered by P3 D65, then by how much that’s covered by Adobe RGB. What you see is that both P3 D65 and Adobe RGB cover almost all of that Coated FOGRA39 print gamut, and both can’t reproduce a small portion of Coated FOGRA39 extreme blues/greens (the little bit shown in gray). What you don’t see is that if these were rotated, on the other side both P3 and Adobe RGB can reproduce all of the warm colors in Coated FOGRA39. 

     

     

    In general, what this tells you is that Adobe RGB can reproduce slightly more print colors than P3. But whether that difference is important depends on what colors are in your images, and what printing conditions you need to target. For example, this comparison has different results when compared to uncoated FOGRA39, and different again when compared to the color gamut of my inkjet printer.

     

    Most of the time you’ll find P3 D65 is just as good as Adobe RGB, and depending on the colors in the image and the print color gamut, maybe sometimes better.

    lwmsmd
    lwmsmdAuthor
    Inspiring
    February 21, 2023

    Thanks, this is really helpful, along with the other reply posts here for this thread. Can I assume then, that going through the View> Proof Set Up > Custom > Device to simulate (with choice of the ICC profile associated with your paper choice) is the best way to preview how the image will appear in print, realizing that there may be some surprises based on the limitations of the monitor and the paper.

    Conrad_C
    Community Expert
    Community Expert
    February 21, 2023
    quote

    Can I assume then, that going through the View> Proof Set Up > Custom > Device to simulate (with choice of the ICC profile associated with your paper choice) is the best way to preview how the image will appear in print, realizing that there may be some surprises based on the limitations of the monitor and the paper.

    By @lwmsmd

     

    Yes, that’s correct, and it’s a realistic attitude. You’ve got a high quality wide gamut display, so soft-proofing should be more accurate than on most displays.

     

    On the Apple XDR displays, the Reference Mode preset you select controls how the display reproduces color; for print, some good choices are Photography (P3-D65) (which sounds like what you’ve selected) and Design & Print (P3-D50), depending on the proofing standard your printing company follows. The only difference between those two Reference Mode presets is the white point (D65 vs. D50). If you customize a copy of either preset, typically the only thing to change might be lowering the luminance from the default of 160 nits.

     

    If soft-proofing is set up properly, now you have the best available (though not perfect) simulation of what the colors will look like in print, and you can edit while Proof Colors is on.

    NB, colourmanagement
    Community Expert
    Community Expert
    February 20, 2023

    @lwmsmd As DigitalDog wrote, it's up to you. Personally I'd leave the image in its original colourspace because every transformation between colour spaces is potentially damaging (even if only slightly). There's no real advantage in having the document colour space match the display colour space.

    If you're eventually making an image for web then save the original. make a copy, convert to sRGB + embed the profile 

     

    I hope this helps
    neil barstow, colourmanagement net - adobe forum volunteer - co-author: 'getting colour right'
    google me "neil barstow colourmanagement" for lots of free articles on colour management

    lwmsmd
    lwmsmdAuthor
    Inspiring
    February 20, 2023

    Thanks. I'm primarily interested in best way to match monitor image to what comes out of the printer. I'll find your articles referenced above and dive in. 

    TheDigitalDog
    Inspiring
    February 20, 2023

    Short answer; doesn't matter. You've got some RGB working space and it is tagged; you're done. If you need to post it to the web and the browser isn't color managed, convert to sRGB (no guarentee of proper viewing but the safest option). The less conversions, the better. 

    Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"
    lwmsmd
    lwmsmdAuthor
    Inspiring
    February 20, 2023

    Thanks. I'm most concerned with print accuracy. Matching what I see on my monitor versus what comes out of the printer. I'd love to see your article referenced "Color management for photographers..." and " "Photoshop CC Color management". Can you point to their locations? Thanks again. 

    TheDigitalDog
    Inspiring
    February 20, 2023

    If your concern is printing:

    The benefits of wide gamut working spaces on printed output:

     

    This three-part, 32-minute video covers why a wide gamut RGB working space like ProPhoto RGB can produce superior quality output to print. 

     

    Part 1 discusses how the supplied Gamut Test File was created and shows two prints output to an Epson 3880 using ProPhoto RGB and sRGB, how the deficiencies of sRGB gamut affect final output quality. Part 1 discusses what to look for on your own prints in terms of better color output. It also covers Photoshop’s Assign Profile command and how wide gamut spaces mishandled produce dull or oversaturated colors due to user error. 

     

    Part 2 goes into detail about how to print two versions of the properly converted Gamut Test File file in Photoshop using Photoshop’s Print command to correctly setup the test files for output. It covers the Convert to Profile command for preparing test files for output to a lab.

     

    Part 3 goes into color theory and illustrates why a wide gamut space produces not only move vibrant and saturated color but detail and color separation compared to a small gamut working space like sRGB. 

     

    High Resolution Video: http://digitaldog.net/files/WideGamutPrintVideo.mov

    Low Resolution (YouTube): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLlr7wpAZKs&feature=youtu.be

     

    Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"