Legend

Question

How to get what the client is seeing on her monitor to print

Forum|Forum|16 years ago
August 6, 2009
5 replies
24386 views

Hello again!

I'm still working on these childrens books, and here's where I'm at.

I calibrated and profiled my monitor and the client's monitor.

The client has been merrily filling in the black outlines of her drawings in Photoshop. She picks the CMYK swatch that looks good on her monitor and fills in the drawing.

Now, I have on my computer a copy of her monitor profile. When I open her PSD images (which are in CMYK mode, with a generic coated SWOP profile), it seems to me that I should:

(a) discard the attached profile, preserving the CMYK numbers

(b) convert the image to the RGB profile of her monitor

(c) convert the image to the CMYK profile of the printing press (or perhaps back to a generic CMYK profile, since we don't yet know where we're printing).

Is this correct?

Or perhaps, when I open her PSD images, I should

(a) use the embedded profile (US Web coated SWOP)

(b) convert to the destination profile of the printing press

Any guidance appreciated,

Ariel

This topic has been closed for replies.

NB, colourmanagement

Community Expert

TaW,

Yeah Real World Photoshop is hard to absorb, I agree. It’s the bible, sure, but its not an easy job to absorb it. In your situation, rather than needing a degree in colour ;~} I think you just need to know about the bits that affect YOUR (and your clients) situation.

You've had some good advice here, CMYK settings are very relevant of course (and SWOP is outdated and totally irrelevant for European print). You client's monitor profile is not of any use to your computer.

I think there's one other thing that's really important that you need to consider.

How well does her screen show colour compared to a good printers proof? You need to know!

Calibration parameters can be badly chosen,

screens can be less capable than needed,

the room light can influence perception significantly.

Some of those can be optimised by adjustment.

How can you be sure of appearance?

Have a look here: http://www.colourmanagement.net/products/icc-profile-verification-kit

The printed work / proof should (must) be viewed in fairly bright daylight, in the print world that’s usually artificial daylight in a light booth.

The screen should be viewed in subdued neutral light.

You can't view a print next to the screen without a desktop light booth, because those 2 lighting requirements are incompatible.

And those requirements are inescapable.

Decent screen, good accurate calibration, proper viewing environments for 1:; screen and for 2: print and proof.

I hope this helps

if so, please "like" my reply

thanks

neil barstow, colourmanagement.net

[please do not use the reply button on a message in the thread, only use the one at the top of the page, to maintain chronological order]

Anonymous

Hi Ariel,

All the responses you are getting are correct, but really it comes down to this - A monitor is light (RGB) ink in paper is CMYK. Monitors should never be used to "Pick Colors" they can only simulate ink on paper. In my 30 years in color reproduction I seen many a client who has been bitterly disappointed and spent time and money correcting proofs because "it didn't look look that on my screen..."

If color selection is critical get a CMYK Pantone Books then you and the client will have a common reference to compare colors.

You then keep the CMYK % as prescribed by the Pantone Book.

I know its old fashioned but it works.... thats why Pantone is the success it is.

Printer_Rick

Inspiring

Wayne Pincham wrote:
If color selection is critical get a CMYK Pantone Books then you and the client will have a common reference to compare colors.
You then keep the CMYK % as prescribed by the Pantone Book.
I know its old fashioned but it works.... thats why Pantone is the success it is.

I understand this logic but it falls short. CMYK numbers alone do not define colors. They produce different results in different print conditions.

Ask any printer to proof a page of Pantone CMYK chips. Maybe a close match but not exact.

Even the books themselves are inconsistent.

Any CMYK swatches used in graphic design need to be evaluated in a color managed environment. This translates the CMYK numbers back into the destination CMYK color space, which is based on Lab values. Lab is the only color space that describes all the colors we see.

You can get away with choosing swatches in a book as a starting point, but the colors need to be proofed. Only then do you have a reliable color reference.

Printer_Rick

Inspiring

Lou beat me to it, his advice was very good.

It may very well be that leaving them US Web Coated SWOP v2 is the best route. When you mentioned a press profile, I assumed that the printer had supplied you with one. If that is the case then a CMYK - CMYK conversion is in order, as I mentioned before. DO NOT go back to RGB.

Whatever you do don't follow that first sequence. You mention discarding the attached profile, that's not a good plan. And don't use her monitor profile, that has no meaning on your machine.

You also mentioned:

The client has been merrily filling in the black outlines of her drawings in Photoshop. She picks the CMYK swatch that looks good on her monitor and fills in the drawing.

Please elaborate on "CMYK swatch" Are you referring to a physical swatch book, or swatches in Photoshop?

TᴀWAuthor

Legend

Rick,

Thanks for you response.

I loaded up the Focoltone library into her swatch palette, and she's picking colours from there and using them in her artwork, based on the way they appear on her screen.

Since her monitor is calibrated and profiled, this should be fairly accurate?

Printer_Rick

Inspiring

This depends on 3 things I think:

1. Her monitor is accurate and room viewing conditions are ideal.

2. She is in CMYK mode, or in RGB with Proof View enabled, so she sees a CMYK rendering

3. US Web Coated SWOP v2 closely describes the print condition you will use

There is great, great debate on CMYK - CMYK conversions, which I mentioned earlier. Technically when following good color management practices to the T, all color information should be converted to the press profile that accurately describes the final print condition (press, paper, ink, screening, etc)

But to be honest there aren't many people who do that. I am a printer, and most of what I get is CMYK. Probably 90% is US Web Coated SWOP v2. This is the "Generic CMYK". Please understand there is really no such thing as a generic CMYK, I call it that because it is the Adobe default and it's what almost everyone uses. Yes, extremely color conscious designers do not do use this default. But most designers and print buyers I know are more concerned with turnaround time than with color (sadly enough).

My dilemma as a printer is, do I convert this CMYK, or no? The answer is a resounding no, unless the customer specifically requests it. The reason I cannot, must not convert, is because if a color issue arises, it's on me. I have taken ownership because I changed the file. Not only that, but it is an extra step in the prepress process. It is treating CMYK just as you would RGB. RGB is a red flag in the print industry, if you start treating everything like RGB then everything is a red flag, which is completely counterproductive.

The print industry standard is to preserve incoming CMYK numbers in all circumstances, unless there is specific, special instruction not to do this, or if there is a concern with Total Ink Limit. This arises depending on the paper being used – uncoated paper cannot receive as much ink as coated paper. So if that is a concern then yes, I have to convert the customer CMYK to my uncoated CMYK, otherwise the whole job prints wrong and we have to reprint.

I am very glad to see you are concerned with color. As I stated most of the time these days it's all about how fast the job can get out the door. Any focus on quality is preferable to rushing jobs through. These days I don't deal with a lot of color issues, and to tell the truth I kind of miss that.

Technically, when you perform a color conversion, there is a loss of quality in the pixels of the image. This may not make sense, but it is true. This is another reason that as a printer I can't go converting CMYK - CMYK. Many times the damage is not at all noticeable, so the concern for accurate color may outweigh the slight hit to the gray levels in the channels. I must stress – do not take the files back to RGB, then to CMYK again. One conversion of a file is always the best workflow. That's why I mentioned earlier than it would have been best if you had received the source RGB from your client.

But don't worry about that too much, from another perspective it is good that she converted to CMYK. The reason I say that is, if she had been working in RGB, the chances of her always remembering to turn on Proof View every time she opened an image are slim to none. This is a major flaw in the Photoshop application, the fact that you cannot save a file with Proof View enabled.

Bottom line, if US Web Coated SWOP v2 is not your exact printing condition, then you may want to convert to the proper press profile for the most accurate color result. Please check with the printer, thoroughly describe your situation. They may say "just leave it US Web Coated SWOP v2". Or they may say "yes, definitely convert to our press profile".

If you do perform a CMYK - CMYK conversion, remember the principle behind this course of action. Yes, your client did not see the final conversion, or the final destination CMYK on her monitor. However, the idea behind the final conversion is to preserve appearance, in the true print condition.

When you convert to to the final CMYK, you should not see a huge color shift, the color should be mostly preserved. That is color management, working just as it is supposed to. If for some reason you see a drastic color change when you convert, let us know we will try to figure out the problem.

I apologize for rambling on and on, I get carried away sometimes.

Printer_Rick

Inspiring

Arïel wrote:
(a) discard the attached profile, preserving the CMYK numbers
(b) convert the image to the RGB profile of her monitor
(c) convert the image to the CMYK profile of the printing press (or perhaps back to a generic CMYK profile, since we don't yet know where we're printing).
Is this correct?
Or perhaps, when I open her PSD images, I should
(a) use the embedded profile (US Web coated SWOP)
(b) convert to the destination profile of the printing press
Any guidance appreciated,
Ariel

Your 2nd choice is better, much better.

Best case scenario would have been only one conversion, RGB - CMYK. But since it's already been converted to CMYK, it is best to do a 2nd conversion, to the profile that describes the true printing condition (the press profile you mention)

Lou Dina

Known Participant

Ariel,

If you want control over your color, you are going to have to learn the basics. Sorry, but there is no good way around it and it takes some study. I will try to give you a little guidance for now, but you need to read a good color management book, like Real World Color Management to get your arms around the concepts.

1. First, I will assume BOTH you and your client have properly calibrated monitors and that they are calibrated to the exact same parameters. If not, game over. You will never see on your monitor what she sees on hers unless this is true.

2. Your client needs to specify a CMYK working space to give the CMYK numbers color meaning. If she does not do this, then find out what her "default CMYK" is set to in Photoshop. If she has not picked a CMYK space, Photoshop will assume what is set under "Color Settings". Ideally, she would save her files with the CMYK profile embedded in the file. This makes it clear what she is using.

3. Once you know what flavor of CMYK she is using, then you should "Assign" that same exact CMYK profile to it when opening. If the file has the CMYK profile embedded when saved, you will know exactly what she is using, even if she doesn't know. Now, if all of the above have been done, you should see on your monitor what she saw on hers.

4. Until you know where you will be sending the file for output, leave the profile set to what she used. You should ask your printer for their specifications for file preparation....ie, color profile, resolution, ink limits, etc. After you have found out from your printer what they want, then you can address conversion, if required. They may want you to supply US Web Coated SWOP v2 files, and if that is the space you are using, then you should be done. Of course, you need to check resolution, verify that ink limits are below their maximum, etc.

Sadly, not all printers know what they are doing. Some are clueless about color management, profiles, dot gain, ink limits, etc.

Get the book or study the subject on internet sites. If you don't understand the principles, you will continue to struggle and your jobs may not turn out well. One other thing....insist that the printer provide a color "contract" proof of the job BEFORE it goes to press. If it looks terrible, something is wrong and you can catch it early and figure out what needs to be changed. If it looks great, then it is the printer's obligation to match the proof on press, within reasonable tolerances. Once you sign off on the contract proof, it should be set in stone (for both of you).

Lou

TᴀWAuthor

Legend

Lou,

Thanks for responding.

First off, I have borrowed and read a copy of Real World Color Management 2nd edition. It's still on my shelf, and I'm trying to figure it out. But this stuff is confusing (and I have two degrees from a top British university -- but not in color management).

1. The parameters of our monitors are close, but not identical. I couldn't get her cheaper monitor dark enough. But anyway, our viewing environments are

pretty different. So I suppose I should just ignore what I'm seeing on my monitor (I'm not doing colour adjustments, just the layout etc.).

2. Her files are being saved with the default US web coated SWOP.

3. Okay, this is making sense. I think I went on a wild goose chase by asking her for her monitor profile. After all, when she chooses a CMYK number + a CMYK press profile (the default), we now have an "objective" colour defined (I guess that means a specific Lab colour?) And because her monitor is profiled, Photoshop knows what to do to get her monitor to produce that same Lab colour. And when I open that image on my computer, since my monitor is also profiled, Photoshop should know what to do to get it to produce that same Lab colour. So, if what I'm saying here is correct, the only thing I don't understand is why you said I won't be seeing the same colour on my monitor as she is on hers. And the only answer I can think of (please correct me if I'm wrong), is that our viewing environments are different.

So to summarize: I should simply let Photoshop "use the embedded profile".

Let me know if I'm not understanding this properly.

Thanks,

Ariel

Lou Dina

Known Participant

Ariel,

Yes...it is confusing at first. If you will be doing a lot of this, it is worth understanding. If this book is a one time shot, then maybe not.

I said IF your monitors are both accurately calibrated to the same parameters, you should see the same thing. But, if hers is calibrated to very different parameters than yours, you will see a different interpretation of the numbers on your screen than she does on hers. Yes, ambient lighting environment can have some impact, so it would be best if you both worked in a moderate to dimly lit environment.

Photoshop, being a color managed application, will see the monitor profile in the loop automatically and will instantaneously adjust colors as they are being sent to your monitor (and hers). So, all you need is an accurate monitor profile, and Photoshop will get the colors right. And yes, Lab is operating silently in the background as the universal translator. Your CMYK numbers, PLUS a correct color profile, are enough to identify the exact hue, saturation and brightness of a given color. Even though you may have a CMYK file on your screen, Photoshop is silently keeping track of everything in the background in Lab terms. Lab is the only color space on your system that is "device independent" and unambiguous. It doesn't need a profile, since it IS the standard. A given set of Lab coordinates always means a specific color, regardless of the monitor, printer or press used for final output. But that is not true of CMYK or RGB...they need a profile in addition to the numbers.

So, I think you have it now. Yes, let Photoshop use the embedded profile IF one is embedded. If one is not embedded, you need to find out what your client used, or what the default setting is in their Photoshop program, so you can ASSIGN the same profile to the file. You want your CMYK numbers AND your CMYK color space to match hers. Clear?

Lou

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