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July 5, 2013
Question

Laptop: 95% NTSC TN vs 60% NTSC IPS for my use?

  • July 5, 2013
  • 2 replies
  • 42113 views

I'm fairly new to photography, got a G3 in December 2011. Had nothing  but compacts prior. Bought Lightroom 4 and started shooting RAW a year  ago. Upgraded to a G5 last fall and just upgraded to Lightroom 5. I  shoot family and vacation photos, and in particular a lot of photos of  our toddler. I export to JPEG on a shared drive which I stream to a  couple of HDTVs for viewing. I rarely print, and if I do, it's to frame a  photo that came out particularly well at 4x6 or 5x7 or to stick it on  the fridge. In short, it's all personal / hobby, nothing professional /  paid / critical, although I like to do the best job I can with my  limited skill set.

Historically I've been using my desktop PC w/ 23" 72% NTSC matte IPS  monitor calibrated with Spyder4Pro and it's been fine.  However, life  changes when the baby starts walking, and I no longer have the time to  camp out in the basement developing photos. After getting further and  further behind, I started shopping laptops that I could use as a desktop  replacement as I roam around the house watching my son, and also while  traveling. Based on this, the laptop screen needs to be suitable for  editing, and not rely on an external monitor.

I was looking at the Sagers with 95% NTSC matte panels. Then they  released a Haswell-based model with IPS screen. I emailed Sager about  color gamut, and it's only 60% NTSC. I thought that may be subpar since  it doesn't even cover sRGB, so I ended up with a model with the 95% TN  screen, which I've calibrated with Sypder4Pro which is stating 91% NTSC.

The laptop is nice, and has the nicest display of any laptop I've ever  owned. However, vertical angles are still somewhat limited. I'm  wondering how important 95% color gamut is when I don't know at exactly  what angle I'm actually seeing the colors at their most accurate  rendering.  I believe that the slight shift I see within a reasonable  range of viewing angle will probably not create any severe problems when  the finished JPEGs are viewed on the TVs, but I'm wondering if the 60%  NTSC IPS screen would have been a better choice.

I'm not making fine adjustments to color, I don't even know how to any  real degree. I apply the Huelight Standard G5 profile on import.  I  might tinker with bringing out some blue in the sky on a landscape shot,  or add a touch of vibrance, but that has to do more with the amount of  color, not whether the color is accurate.  I'm not moving tone curves  around and stuff like that. I do adjust white balance, but I don't know  if a reduced gamut would impact my ability to do that. It's more a  matter of warmer vs cooler than whether this shade of blue meets aRGB  specifications.

I've got a couple weeks of no-questions-asked return window left.  On  one hand, I've spent a lot of time getting all my programs installed and  set up just the way I want, Lightroom is running fast, and an exchange  and re-setup would be a fairly significant hassle.  On the other hand,  I'd like to make the purchase last on the order of 5 years, and I could  justify an extra day or so if there's a compelling reason to do so.

So, does anyone have an opinion to offer?  For my particular use, does a  cheap IPS panel that doesn't cover sRGB make more sense than a high end  TN panel that almost covers aRGB?  My guess is that I could make either  one work for what I'm doing, and there's probably not enough reason to  switch at this point, but I'd like to hear from those who are more  knowledgeable about it.  Has anyone actually done any editing on a low  gamut IPS monitor and what was your experience?

Thanks!

Steve

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    2 replies

    PayodPanda
    Participating Frequently
    August 18, 2013

    Steve, can you let us know which display you finally opted for in the end, and if you're happy with your decision?

    I am considering buying a Sager (NP7352 based on Clevo W350ST) as well with the 95% NTSC Gamut TN panel, it's the AU Optronics B156HW01 V.4, and I've heard good things said about it. Which Sager model offers the IPS display option? I only see the standard 60% gamut TN panel and this 95% NTSC gamut TN panel.

    Based out of India, it won't be possible for me to return the product once I buy it, so I need to make a very informed choice.

    Also, I am about to enter a design school, studying graphic design - so I'll be in the professional field after college. What would you guys suggest as a display for me? Low gamut IPS or high gamut TN panel? A very high quality (read - expensive) display is not in my budget right now.

    Any and all help much appreciated. =)

    Thanks!

    Participant
    August 20, 2013

    I decided to try the IPS.  Unfortunately, it had a problem unrelated to the screen, so I had to return it for repair and don't have it back yet.  In the short time I had it, I took the time to compare to my desktop 72% NTSC IPS monitor.  It was able to display red properly and without any calibration looked close to my calibrated desktop monitor.  While I didn't get to use Lightroom with it, I don't believe I will have any problem doing so.  There appeared to be sufficient shadow detail to be able to properly adjust the exposure sliders.   I did try to calibrate it with my Spyder4Pro, two attempts, both resulted in extreme red push.  It looked much better out of the box.  However, I did find an article on using the Spyder4Pro with laptop displays, and some of the steps are different than what I did, so I'll be giving it another try once I have the laptop back.  As far as gamut, the calibration results showed 78% sRGB, which I believe is somewhat less than 60% NTSC.  However, as far as I can tell, this LG panel is the only one being made for 15.6" models, so it's what you're going to get for IPS no matter what make/model you buy.

    I think for college you will be more satisfied with the IPS than with the TN.  Having used the 95% TN panel, I can say it's the nicest TN panel I've ever used, great colors in managed applications and much better viewing angles than a typical low to mid grade laptop screen.  However, there is still a noticeable shift in color/contrast when adjusting your seating position, and I had already bought a mechanical viewing angle gauge to attach to the lid before I returned the Sager w/ TN for the Asus with IPS.  As a student you will be working in various places and at various hours, a great variety in lighting conditions and viewing angles, and the IPS panel will be more forgiving in that respect.  If your professors are viewing your projects on laptops, they won't be using a screen any better than yours so there's no point in worrying about color gamut.  By the time you graduate you'll be in the market for something newer.  If you're doing it professionally you probably won't be doing it on a laptop at all.

    The Sager NP4650 and NP6652 have 15.6" IPS panels.  As I mentioned, I would expect these to be the same panels as in the Asus.

    Participant
    September 13, 2013

    for IPS displays, what are the highest gamuts (also 8 bit vs. 10 bit) available in laptops

    Most laptop displays in the market right now are 6-bit, with or without HiFRC (achieves 8-bit via dithering). True 8-bit (16.7 million colours) and 10-bit (10 billion colours) will cost you a LOT, besides I don't know of any laptop that come with display panels with such high bit depths. This was why I shied away from opting for the high gamut display on my Sager.

    Here follows a rather lengthy explanation, feel free to skip this paragraph. The visible spectrum of the human eye has a much wider gamut than what any display technology, at least for commercial usage, can reproduce right now. The next widest gamut you can work in is the ProPhoto, then comes adobeRGB, and last is sRGB. The standard panels that we get nowadays generally cover 95-105% of sRGB. Now let's consider these color spaces as triangles, the visible spectrum to the human eye being the largest (refer photo: in this the visible spectrum is a horseshoe shape instead of a triangle (which is how it should be)). The three corners of the triangle are the colours red, green and blue. The ProPhoto is a smaller triangle, adobeRGB inside that, and sRGB the smallest triangle fits inside the adobeRGB space. So, for example, the most saturated green in the adobeRGB space is greener than the most saturated green in the sRGB space. So, you can say that a higher gamut will have a higher colour contrast.

    Note: in the image the "wide gamut RGB" is actually ProPhoto RGB.

    http://www.arthousehq.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/colourspaces.gif

    This is where the display bit depth kicks in. A higher bit depth will be able to show more number of colours on the screen. 8-bit means it can show 2^8 = 256 colours per channel. That gives you 256^3 =  16,777,216 (16.7 million) colours as a combination of the RGB channels. 6-bit, on the other hand, can only show 2^6 = 64 colours per channel, or 64^3 = 262,144 colours as a combination of RGB channels. So if you buy a high gamut display with, let's say, a 6-bit colour depth, then you will see banding very clearly since a higher range (of the high colour gamut) is represented by a fewer number of colours. Gradients will look like bands, sort of like cell shading.

    A high gamut display (in my humble opinion) would only be useful if the display can reproduce a 10-bit colour depth. Then, the higher range will still be divided such that banding won't be discernible by the naked eye in normal circumstances. So if I need a high gamut display I'd look for a dedicated monitor for the same (and make sure your laptop has a display port connection for video output, that is the only port which outputs 10-bit colour).

    An analogy can be established with the display size and the screen resolution. The display size (in inches) is analogous to the colour gamut, and the screen resolution (in pixels) is analogous to the display bit depth. If you buy a 40" screen with 800x600px resolution, you will be able to see pixels on the screen very clearly. If, on the other hand, you buy a small screen (let's say a smartphone) with FHD, then there is no way you would be able to distinguish between individual pixels. There is a sweet spot in the PPIbeyond which you can't distinguish between individual pixels, I think this is 300PPI. This gets me thinking, if a similar sweet spot exists for the colour gamut and bit depth as well. =)

    how do we decipher which mfr's are using which displays, given their proprietary terminology in their marketing info

    Well if you have the laptop with you, you can use a system info software and look under the display in hardware info. If you don't have the laptop, then I guess Google is your best friend. You might not be able to find out the display panel for some laptops, you might have to crawl forum posts, and you must know which forums to look at. For gaming laptops you have NotebookReview. Notebookcheck.net lists the display model generally IF they review a laptop - but they generally do so for gaming laptops and ultrabooks, I'm not sure about workstations.

    Who should I be looking at MSI, Dell, Sony, HP ???

    MSI makes gaming laptops. All the gaming laptops use the same screens (most of the time), from what I found out from two months of painstaking research. The 17" default is a ChiMei, the 15" and all high gamut displays are AU Optronics. I don't know about 14 inchers though. If you want a good display, don't look at gaming rigs.

    I've personally had a bad experience with HP myself. But it might have been a one-off case. They do generally have battery / heating / power brick failure problems.

    I've never owned a Dell or Sony so can't comment on them from first hand experience, but from what I've learned from friends, Sony is good but expensive. If I were you and these were the only four companies I had to choose from, I'd go with a Dell. Although I would've also had a look at Lenovos and taken that for the durability - you already own one and you know how rugged they are. I'd rather have an okay display with a tough rugged body which would last, than a good display (since awesome displays don't exist for laptops) which might not last as long. As for Sager, I've heard they're tough as well. I haven't yet seen one though (my Sager will be delivered to my brother in the USA who will bring it along to India in December), so I can't compare them to a Thinkpad.

    Your priorities might of course be different though, so make up your own mind. =)

    Hope this helps you out in making an informed choice.

    Best,

    Payod


    Sorry for the delay in response.

    The info was a bit overwhelming (good stuff) for me to digest, so I had to step away from it for a bit.  I still need to digest it, but wanted to say thanks for the info guys.

    Even without going through the volume of info yet, I'm wondering if I simply need to be looking for an antiglare, IPS with a gamut approximatley equal to aRGB (rather than the need for 95% gamut) ... wondering at available 14" IPS, antiglare laptops options.  Again, I still need to digest the info, but wanted to say thanks, lest you think otherwise.

    Okay ... so I got through the video and it would seem that it still suggests that if we are working in ProPhoto, we aren't able to necessarily see what we are doing if our display is only sRGB capable with regard to ProPhoto areas that are outside of sRGB.  This puts me back to the perspective of 95% gamut for display in order to see what we are working on in "full".

    Also, the concept that gamut can be greater than 100% (DreamColor reports 120%) is also confusing.  The short of it is that I'm capturing RAW, in my case from Kodak SLR/C most often and bringing it into PS.  What display targets/parameters @ gamut will most show me the full color of my image?  I spoke with Lenovo earlier today, they said they make no 14" anti-glare IPS displays.  But then, the rep also said the T430 had no gamut.

    Why does this issue of IPS and gamut have to be such a secretive parameter.  Add to that the % Area vs. % Coverage vs. NTSC vs. ??? this is a pain to figure out.

    Why can't it be simple like 100% of CIE = human vision, 90% of CIE = ProPhoto, 70% of CIE = aRGB, 50% of CIE = sRGB (or whatever the numbers actually are).  This is such a convoluted issue, I don't know how anyone can discern from one mfr's data to another. if they are using differing parameters @ Area vs. Coverage vs. NTSC vs aRGB, etc.

    Anything that can provide objective/equitable clarity would be appreciated.  It seems as there has been no industry standard established and they can spec (or largely omit spec) without specifying which reference spec they are actually using.

    Anyway, thanks, but I'm still no closer to really knowing the objective diff @ one MFR's monitor than another.  All I want to have is a display that I can trust (once calibrated) to show me what I'm working on accurately ... is that too much too ask?

    D Fosse
    Community Expert
    Community Expert
    July 6, 2013

    If you can return it, do so. Color gamut is really the least of your concerns - a good standard gamut display beats a mediocre wide gamut one any day.

    I'm  wondering how important 95% color gamut is when I don't know at exactly  what angle I'm actually seeing the colors at their most accurate  rendering.

    You hit the nail on the head. This really sums up the whole question. TN panels are not suitable for photography work, they're for gaming and office use.

    I have wide gamut at work and standard gamut at home, and I work between them without missing a step. Wide gamut is nice as an added bonus, but by no means necessary. The important thing is that you calibrate, so that the colors it can display are accurate.

    Participant
    July 18, 2013

    Found an sRGB graph of the IPS panel in question. 

    I'm not that familiar with these color graphs but this doesn't look that great.  I did have a chance to use the 95% NTSC TN panel, and it was workable.  Some vertical color shift, but far better than any other TN screen I've ever used.  Very bright, calibrated to 91% NTSC.  I can buy a mechanical viewing angle gauge that attaches to the side of a screen to make sure I'm looking at it straight on.

    So, with this additional info, would you still recommend this particular IPS panel, or would the 95% TN panel do better?

    D Fosse
    Community Expert
    Community Expert
    July 21, 2013

    Viewing angle isn't about where your head is. It's about the top of the screen being too dark, and the bottom washed out. Don't even consider TN as long as you have a choice.

    As I said, and I repeat it here, gamut is the least of your concerns. And that goes for any display.

    Calibrate (and calibrate to a workable luminance, somewhere around 100 - 120 cd/m2), and you'll be fine.