Preparing files for print

>> If I place an EPS raster file (saved in Photoshop with a specific embedded profile) into Illustrator, its profile is not honored, meaning that the placed image's appearance is incorrect

You mean on the monitor, right?
>> Bottom line, the EPS format is to be altogether shunned in color managed workflows

Actually, I am using EPS specifically to take color management out of the job I already have my color the way I want it (my CMYK, my pixels and my vector) and don't want them messed with down stream.

Lou,

Thanks again, I need to absorb your latest post...I just don't trust people around here and simply want to have my CMYK numbers go to press which I think I get now (at least to handing off a good PDF).

But still, I've had printers drag my PDFs into Photoshop and print my vector jaggy.

Because these people don't know what a profile is, what their profile is, they are working in Adobe defaults or trying to "turn color management off".

The export Adobe PDF engine is a real monster...

Thanks, I didn't want to do the PDF, and I didn't watch them do it, so I don't know, but they said they did my no compression settings.

You are saying (when everything has already been Converted):

InDesign: Command+E

Choose Adobe PDF Preset: PDF/X-1A:2001

Choose Output tab> Color> Color Conversion: "Leave Color Unchanged"

That still leaves PDD/X> Output Intent Profile Name
Any idea what that does (since there is no Off option)?

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I will add my No Compression setting for anyone trying to follow this.

Choose Compression tab (in Export Adobe PDF dialog window).

Then Compression> Color Images: Do Not Downsample
Compression: None

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This is the first real look I've done into this.

Let's say I had big book with all AdobeRGB tiffs placed in InDesign and I wanted to setup the PDF to do all the conversions to Press CMYK.

Would I:

Choose Adobe PDF Preset: PDF/X-1A:2001

Choose Output tab> Color> Color Conversion: "Convert to Destination"
and Destination: Press CMYK

That still leaves PDD/X> Output Intent Profile Name
Any idea what that does (since there is no Off option)?

Gary (sorry if I got your name wrong...too much wine)

It just makes more (common) sense that if they have Sheetfed printing presses, they should be using Sheetfed CMYK color spaces because Web CMYK is not taking advantage of the machinery (limiting the ink to what, Web 240%? vs 320% Sheetfed?).

US Web Coated SWOPv2 is based on 300 TIL (240 TIL is typical of newsprint). US Sheetfed Coated has ink limits of 350%, which is generally a bit on the high side for even most sheetfed presses, and even that varies depending on the paper being used.

How Adobe handles color:

>If you place an UNtagged file into ID, then ID will ASSIGN it's default profile.

I can discuss HOW Photoshop handles color.

If you open an UNtagged CMYK file in Photoshop (Ps), Ps Assigns its default working RGB profile, true but only for source space-to-monitor Conversion (the actual CMYK numbers haven't been altered/changed at that point regardless of what CMYK profile I Assign and save).

There is no actual damage to my CMYK color until an actual Conversion takes place specifically to a print space (the Conversion to monitor space is irrelevant to my questions because the source profile is independent of monitor RGB and the monitor does not affect my original CMYK numbers, it is only displaying them).

The above is totally accurate.....BUT....if you have a CMYK file that was originally edited in US Web Coated SWOP space, save it UNtagged, then place that untagged CMYK file into InDesign, the file will be ASSIGNED the document CMYK space in ID. Let's assume the ID document is set to US Sheetfed Coated. No numbers are changed YET. But, if you send it to your service provider as is, they will have no choice but to assume your file's color space is US Sheetfed coated. And if you export to PDF, ID will tell Acrobat that the UNtagged file is US Sheetfed Coated. If you "leave colors unchanged", then the CMYK numbers pass straight through.

I'd rather place tagged files so ID isn't working blind. In fact, I'd prefer to place ALL images (PSD, TIF, AI, etc) tagged in the destination color space if I have a profile for the press. Let's assume that color space is US Web Coated SWOPv2. ID is set up with that profile and ALL components are in that space. If you export to PDF-x/1, you make sure US Web Coated SWOP is specified in your export settings, leave color unchanged, and all files will be sent, as is, to your PDF. The PDF will show the output intent as US Web Coated SWOP.

But the PDF color issue is a lot more mysterious, and I haven't seen where anyone has ever explained it in lay terms, link by link.

For example, in still other words:

1) I place untagged CMYK in Id (at Id default settings).

2) I Com+E (Export) PDF (at PDF default settings).

Have my CMYK "numbers" been changed?

For some strange reason I think not regardless if PDF mistagged my CMYK with its default profile the PDF still possesses my original CMYK numbers.

Well....you can set up Acrobat to leave colors unchanged, convert to profile, etc. Depending on your settings, you will get different results. If you DO place an untagged file into ID, just make sure the file was created using the same "default" CMYK setting, and you won't have a problem (at least in ID).

The most important thing is to communicate clearly with your printer. I'd ask what their ink limits are for the press and stock on which you will print. If it is less than 350, then the next question to ask is why they are using US Sheetfed Coated, which stipulates 350%. US Web Coated SWOP is the most widely used profile in this country, perhaps somewhat conservative for many sheetfed press conditions, but at least safe and fairly widely used. If you don't want your colors reseparated, tell the printer specifically. But make sure you are designing according to what they expect. And ALWAYS have them send you a full color contract proof for you to sign off on. That is your guide and theirs. They have to meet those colors (within tolerances set by SWOP, which are unfortunately, fairly liberal).

It gets complicated. Rick McCleary wrote a very nice book called CMYK 2.0, which addresses many of these questions. Gorgeous photography too. It's available from Amazon. It doesn't go into as much depth on color conversions as you probably want, but it is pretty clear. It also assumes you are dealing with a printer that isn't brain-dead or working the 'old way'.

Hope something here helps.

Lou

Gary,

If you export a pdf from ID at the default settings, there is no color conversion, but as soon as you choose PDF/X-1A, which is the setting you need for print, then it immediately defaults to convert your file - to whatever is loaded in the Output setting at the time. There is a dropdown menu there to choose from. It looks like it picks up your Color Settings from ID and uses that but I haven't tried enough combinations to know for sure. Since I always convert every element prior to importing to ID, there is never any question and I check the Output tab and change it to Leave Color Unchanged.

Unfortunately this is a "feature", this automatically converting files when choosing X-1A that comes back to bite people in the ass, and if you or your printer don't know about it, it's bound to screw up your project. Or not.

Thanks, Lou, I always read your posts with interest and appreciate the time you take to move people forward in their approach.

Web versus Sheetfed:

I (and many people) are stuck with Converting to an Adobe canned CMYK profile and handing it off.

Those of us (like me) that have only a crude awareness of a Web press or Sheetfed press may be mislead by the names.

For example, I go into a print shop, look at their Photoshop Color Settings and ask them if they know their CMYK is based on Web press standards I usually follow up with the fact they have Sheetfed presses...

It just makes more (common) sense that if they have Sheetfed printing presses, they should be using Sheetfed CMYK color spaces because Web CMYK is not taking advantage of the machinery (limiting the ink to what, Web 240%? vs 320% Sheetfed?).

Next I usually ask them about their Photoshop working RGB (why sRGB) and broken Color Management Policies (but I won't go there here, suffice to say they don't have a clue what is going with their color miss-management, and how Adobe apps actually handle color).

How Adobe handles color:
>>If you place an UNtagged file into ID, then ID will ASSIGN it's default profile.

I can discuss HOW Photoshop handles color.

If you open an UNtagged CMYK file in Photoshop (Ps), Ps Assigns its default working RGB profile, true but only for source space-to-monitor Conversion (the actual CMYK numbers haven't been altered/changed at that point regardless of what CMYK profile I Assign and save).

There is no actual damage to my CMYK color until an actual Conversion takes place specifically to a print space (the Conversion to monitor space is irrelevant to my questions because the source profile is independent of monitor RGB and the monitor does not affect my original CMYK numbers, it is only displaying them).

The problems with InDesign (Id) and Acrobat (PDF):

The biggest problem I have is handing over a 80mb CMYK .tiff and having some clueless genius run it through a PDF default to produce a 3mb .jpg (by Adobe default).

But the PDF color issue is a lot more mysterious, and I haven't seen where anyone has ever explained it in lay terms, link by link.

For example, in still other words:

1) I place untagged CMYK in Id (at Id default settings).

2) I Com+E (Export) PDF (at PDF default settings).

Have my CMYK "numbers" been changed?

For some strange reason I think not regardless if PDF mistagged my CMYK with its default profile the PDF still possesses my original CMYK numbers.

The problem doesn't happen until until an actual Conversion takes place.

What happens after the PDF to produce the metal plates is a mystery if the wrong profile the PDF Assigned to my CMYK will hose my color or if my CMYK will pass my original numbers through to the plates.

+++++++

The only way [my] pea brain is going to understand this is to break down the process link by link...if I understood the question better I could probably ask the question a lot clearer.

George,

I'm not answering your question, so I hope you will bear with me.

To me, EPS is more of a legacy encoding and I never use it for anything. As mentioned earlier, EPS tags are not respected when placing into Quark or InDesign; they're ignored (or perhaps unseen). If you set up all your Adobe Apps to use the same RGB and CMYK space, (ARGB and US Web Coated SWOP are good general defaults, especially when you don't know where the job is going, or if your service provider is clueless), you should be fairly safe.

I usually have color management turned on in InDesign. If I know the exact destination press, and if they have a profile, or if I know they adhere to a standard, then I set those as the document defaults in the ID document. Then I place tagged PSD or TIFF files from photoshop, and tagged AI files from Illustrator. You cange change the color settings of any individual placed image from within ID, so you can change rendering intent, etc. Any elements created from within ID iteself will be in the document's default color space (ARGB or US Web Coated SWOP, in the above example). I usually package this and send the ID file and links to the service provider. IF I export to PDF, I use ID's Export command, Press Quality, and "leave color unchanged", assuming I have all my elements in ID set to the destination CMYK. Or, you can convert to the destination CMYK (such as US Web Coated SWOP) in the PDF export and include the profile. This will make sure all elements are in a single space. Works fine.

If you place an UNtagged file into ID, then ID will ASSIGN it's default profile. That's why it is good to have all your Adobe Color Settings synchronized and in the same color space.

If color management is OFF in ID, then whatever numbers are in your file will be sent to the RIP at the printer. Tags will be ignored on placed files. Then, the commercial printer will do whatever they normally do at their end (plate curves, etc).

Another option, is to convert to PDF and select a single destination color space, be NOT include tags. When your printer opens this un-color managed file, they won't know what the profiles are, so they will likely pass the numbers straight through their system, and you will get whatever the numbers are (based on their workflow).

I usually get to select my commercial printer, and only work with ones that know how to handle a color managed workflow. Our proofs are always very close, and the press sheet is usually very close as well.

I also agree with Peter, 350 TIL is a LOT of ink, and few presses and papers will do well with that much, though some can do it no problem. 300 TIL is usually plenty, and if you notice it anywhere it will be in the deepest blacks and shadows. The paper will have more influence than anything once you hit 300% ink. If you are working with a GOOD printer, who has a good sheetfed press that is properly maintained and set up, running good process control, and good coated stock, you can probably assume 320 to 330% total ink. But again, it will be noticeable mostly in the blacks and shadows.

Hope this helps and doesn't just frustrate you, since I side stepped your question a little bit.

Regards, Lou

>> Who is the "they" who are exporting your ID files to pdf? If "they" are the printer, "they" should know better...

The printers here in San Diego don't even know what a profile is they ask for CMYK or RGB  they don't have a clue about what CMYK their workflow is based on.

I look at their Photoshop color settings and they are consistently on default.

Further, Acrobat PDF have always confused me, which is why I am asking the question.

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I use Photoshop CMYK .eps because I don't want them messing with the file I didn't use .psd because it gives them an open opportunity to mess with my file.

I don't know any reason why my basic Pixel/VectorShape layers Photoshop .eps would not work as long as I got it right.

I took the extra step and placed my .eps in InDesign.

I told them exactly where/how to turn off compression in the Adobe PDF process.

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I guess my question is still is:

I place a Sheetfed Coated Photoshop .eps in InDesign.

I Command+E export PDF from InDesign.

I turn off Compression (so my pixels are sent straight through).

I save the PDF.

Did my CMYK "numbers" go straight through?

If not, what application is making the Conversion?

Where is it picking up its default profile?

What profile is it Converting to?

+++++++

I understand how profiles work in Photoshop, I just can't follow the chain...Indesign> Acrobat.

My goal is simply to place my .eps file in InDesign and Export my PDF and not have my color changed.

+++++++

In this scenario, I did NOT check "Leave Color Unchanged" so I am especially interested in what's going on where the Assumption is taking place, what profile is being Assumed, and what target profile my CMYK is being Converted to.

An image, saved by Photoshop as EPS can have an
embedded (tagged) profile (choice in the save menue).
In Illustrator this EPS retains its profile if
the whole EPS is embedded and it loses the profile if
the whole EPS is linked.

Nowadays there is no reason to use EPS (except for
PostScript programs, my preferred application).

In an Adobe workflow use PSD or TIFF for raster
images, PDF for combinations of raster images and
vector graphic (PhS image+text layers,for instance),
and PDF also for plain vector graphic.
Illustrator PDF can be edited later by Illustrator,
if this option was chosen.

In InDesign a doc has a document color space set
(mainly RGB and CMYK).
But each image can have a different profile, if it
is already embedded (tagged), or if it is assigned
arbitrarily in ID.
A good style:
Convert all images to the same destination profile
and use this as document profile.
Also a good solution, after soft-proofing the RGB
images by Photoshop: use RGB images, make a PDF
and convert this globally into the destination space
by Acrobat Professional.

Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann.

Thanks a million! You've cleared everything up.