Skip to main content
Roei Tzoref
Roei Tzoref
Legend
April 17, 2016
Question

Wide Gamut Monitor and the path to Sanity

  • April 17, 2016
  • 15 replies
  • 29511 views

Yes... this again.

I promise that when I figure this out I am going to make a killer video tutorial

about this and help everybody who is still struggling with this.

I have read dozens of articles about this and still it alludes me.

read this insane thing (you'd think that a super expert,

when talking about color management, would have mercy on our eyes...)

read this very good thing

and read posts here and everywhere. still don't get all of it.

really, what's the point of working in a color managed environment

if you can only see it "right" in some specific color managed apps

while the majority of people will see it "wrong"?

Me

I do Compositing design for video.

My Workstation:

Windows 7

DELL 2408WFP Monitor. calibrated using x-rite i1displaypro.

Software:

Photoshop CC2015

After Effects CC2015

Chrome Browser

Vlc player

My Workflow:

  • in Photoshop I work in sRGB as a working space color space: the colors look less saturated - Like I want them.
  • when I save for web and embed the color profile: the photo looks fine in Windows photo viewer - since it's color managed.
  • Browse the files in my Os Windows explorer: saturated - since it's not color managed.
  • Watch it in my Chrome browser: saturated - since it's not color managed.
  • Import it to After effects for Compositing the image: it looks saturated - unless I change the color management project settings to sRGB - then it looks fine. o.k I get it - color management.... I can do this!
  • Export a movie from After effects and watch it in the ever popular VLC player: saturated - since it's not color managed. ARRGGGG

Why Bother?

it is supposed to be on the web so people are going to watch it in Chrome since the vast majority of people watch browse in chrome

if I send it to a client he is going to see it in Chrome. the movie is going to be watched in VLC Player since it's the most popular.

so basically everybody who's anybody is going to watch that stuff as too saturated. so why bother to work in a color managed environments? for geeks who only use firefox value 1? or use designated color managed apps??? (I am a geek no offense)

and if he watches it in sRGB Monitor or an sRGBcolor space profile in his OS - it is going to be saturated.

the only way I can keep my sanity for now is to set my color management profile in windows to sRGB

now everything is consistent - too saturated. but at least it's consistent.

what do you guys think?

and another thing:

btw is there a way to use x-rite to calibrate my monitor for at least to be a decent sRGB color space?

can't see how to do that...

thanks in advance

This topic has been closed for replies.

15 replies

Roei Tzoref
Roei TzorefAuthor
Legend
May 6, 2019

just an update the thread: I eventually bought Eizo CG247X Monitor, calibrated it to sRGB, bought another Dell U2415 adjusted it to match my Eizo. I sometimes work app managed and sometimes not. everything makes sense now. I have regained sanity.

kain19406534
kain19406534
Participating Frequently
May 6, 2019

Hi there Roei,

sounds good that you have regained sanity ^^.

Could you maybe elaborate a bit more on what exactly led to this?

I am just asking for a bit more information, but only if you have time for this

Cheeers!

    Roei Tzoref
    Roei TzorefAuthor
    Legend
    May 7, 2019

    Hey Kain, what led to this is that I had a credibility issue with my old Dell. it was showing different colors and I was not sure if it's a hardware problem or a software. turns out it was mostly a hardware problem since it was going yellow on me. but also software - because I could not calibrate it properly. the Eizo comes with a built in color calibrator and a very high reputation for color correction. I needed that kind of credibility for my clients. I then bought another Dell and I use them both. set my dell to display as best it can to my Eizo and I can now trust my monitor again to show me the right colors.

      T
      Test Screen Name
      Legend
      May 6, 2019

      You kind of have it. Certainly, if you set the monitor to sRGB you can just about get colour matching between your colour managed apps (Adobe) and on-colour managed apps. And, as you say, you are getting no benefit from the monitor.

      Far better is to say: this is a specialist monitor which shows correct colour only in colour managed apps. I won't use those other apps, because they are not suitable for this monitor. There is no bug in any app, they are all working exactly as designed. The design isn't necessarily what we want!

      I'd recommend such a monitor only for preparing work for print publishing, or as a second monitor.

      kain19406534
      kain19406534
      Participating Frequently
      May 6, 2019

      Hi there,

      thanks for answering!

      I understand that setting sRGB as monitor profile doesn't really get you any benefits from using a wide-gamut-monitor.

      But if using a custom calibrated and profiled profile, values should at least match inside and among various Adobe programs, right (because they are all color managed)? I also made sure that my color management settings are all synced between Adobe programs (using Bridge).

      BUT

      if you take a look at the thread I have posted above, color appearance and values differ INSIDE THE SAME program, namely Adobe Illustrator.

      HOW'S THAT POSSIBLE?? I CANNOT EXPLAIN :/

      D Fosse
      Community Expert
      D FosseCommunity Expert
      Community Expert
      May 6, 2019

      kain, can you please keep this in one thread? Having this spread over three separate threads is completely impossible to keep track of.

      Please state which of these three threads we should respond to.

      kain19406534
      kain19406534
      Participating Frequently
      May 6, 2019

      Hey Guys and Girls,

      i have been reading your thread till the end and have to admit that I am pretty sure I got the exact same problem as Roei Tzoref. It really strikes me as being utterly unusual to get such a behaviour inside my Adobe programs and therefore I have done some testing.

      The only way for me to get synchronized and expected RGB colors and especially values is to set sRGB as the monitor's profile in the OS (Windows 10 display profile) like Roei Tzoref has been pointing out several times in this thread. Therefore, if I have correctly understood the posts above, not really making use of the color management capabilities of a wide-gamut Eizo CS240. But at least color values match between Adobe and Web and especially inside the respective Adobe Programs:

      To further illustrate the testing I have done I have opened another thread which you can visit here:

      Help me out please! Colors seem to show wrong after monitor calibration?

      It would be interesting to get some feedback whether you guys get the same results when doing the same testing. If you DO get the same results, at least I can be assured that there is or most likely is no bug inside my Adobe programs but that it has indeed got to do something with a wrong calibration or corrupted profile.

      Would love to hear from you guys.

      Cya

      flylikeazipper
      flylikeazipper
      Participating Frequently
      June 8, 2017

      I too have been battling with the issue of creating web content on a wide gamut dell u27... I want to edit photos (lightroom/photoshop) in an environment that mimics what clients will see... When I export jpegs in sRGB from lightroom, there is an obvious color cast (red) to them when viewed on any device, in any program, including my monitor (which is set to sRGB mode)... On color managed or non-color managed apps alike (the various windows image viewers)! The solution I was using at first was to set the image tones with a green bias before export (very unscientific)... But then I changed the windows color management settings to standard icc sRGB (instead of the canned DELL profile) and now everything seems consistent. My exports (more or less) match what I see in LR/photoshop, in color managed and non-color managed apps alike, on multiple devices.

      Obviously different devices will render the exports differently, but said differences are far more subtle now, as to be negligible.

      Expert advice is duly noted, but "accuracy" is apparently impossible for consumer applications (printing aside), so makes no sense to try to achieve it. What we want then is a usable sRGB working space, and this seems to have done the trick on my monitor anyway.

      TheDigitalDog
      TheDigitalDog
      Inspiring
      June 8, 2017

      flylikeazipper  wrote

      When I export jpegs in sRGB from lightroom, there is an obvious color cast (red) to them when viewed on any device, in any program, including my monitor (which is set to sRGB mode)...

      Test this with a color reference image who’s RGB values are correct:

      http://www.digitaldog.net/files/2014PrinterTestFileFlat.tif.zip

      IF you see a cast, it’s your calibration!

      flylikeazipper  wrote

      I want to edit photos (lightroom/photoshop) in an environment that mimics what clients will see...

      That’s impossible! You can’t control what other’s see. That’s been covered here and why.

      flylikeazipper  wrote

      Expert advice is duly noted, but "accuracy" is apparently impossible for consumer applications (printing aside), so makes no sense to try to achieve it. What we want then is a usable sRGB working space, and this seems to have done the trick on my monitor anyway.

      This really has noting to do with color accuracy. Printing or otherwise. We can go there and discuss scene referred (accurate but often ugly appearing color). Work on pleasing color.

      Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"
      flylikeazipper
      flylikeazipper
      Participating Frequently
      June 8, 2017

      Hence why I placed "accuracy" in quotations... As I don't literally mean color accuracy, but merely color that is not so obviously wrong as to be comical. It is apparent from my post that I am aware I cannot REPLICATE what others will see (especially on my Adobe98esque monitor), why I said MIMIC it, which is obviously possible because there exists a standard in sRGB, which falls well within the range of color my monitor can display.

      I was writing to say that once I changed the windows profile to an ICC sRGB to match my wg monitor's crippled sRGB setting, my workflow behaves more predictably, without the red casts... DELL's generic software profile appeared to be the culprit.

      sukail77046130
      sukail77046130
      Participating Frequently
      May 6, 2017

      Amazing community and thanks to Roei who created this thread to help figure this out together along with so many talents.

      To thedigitaldog:

      Watched through your two-part youtube series about color management and it is EXTREMELY helpful. Very technical and informative. I need to take my word back on "The concept seems straight-forward..." because there are so much complexity in it I really thinks I still knows nothing about.

      To D Fosse and all:

      Read through all your discussions and I believe I have reached some sort of methods that I am going to approach with.

      1. Treat my Dell U2410 as a specialized tool, calibrate and profile as WG should to maximize the usable color space

      2. Change back the "advanced" system default profile (thanks D Fosse), and make my device default to my calibrated profile

      3. Ignore Windows Photo Viewer and Windows Photo or other crappy not-color-managed apps altogether. Focus solely on LR and PS on my edits.

      4. Export to Adobe RGB 1998 if I want to print physical, export to sRGB for digital usage

      5. View these exported photos on a separate PC/Monitor that mimics typical unmanaged client's PC's environment.

      -----

      Bottom-line: with the above method, I will know the work I am working on, under my particular environment only, is as true to its color as possible. Then understand there is no way to control what clients' will see on their screen, but knows that it won't be too far off since it will all be relative to how their system behaves.

      Hope this method can keep me sane for the last time.

      On the other hand, still don't understand why Windows Photo Viewer's color is different from the Windows Photo? If both apps are not color managed, what gives them to behave differently in a same system?

        Roei Tzoref
        Roei TzorefAuthor
        Legend
        May 7, 2017
        On the other hand, still don't understand why Windows Photo Viewer's color is different from the Windows Photo? If both apps are not color managed, what gives them to behave differently in a same system?

        windows photo viewer is color managed

        good luck sukail77046130

          sukail77046130
          sukail77046130
          Participating Frequently
          May 7, 2017

          Thanks. You are right, further studying showed that WPV is color managed but Windows Photo is not. However, WPV is managed not with the profile the monitor calibrated with thus the over saturation. I found a good picture managing app that can load the same calibration profile ones calibrated, its called fastpictureviewer and the free version works great

          Good luck to you too!

          T
          Test Screen Name
          Legend
          May 6, 2017

          I agree. But in the real world we want to do the best job we can for the large majority of people, rather than refuse to accept them as clients, customers or viewers because they have the temerity not to have colour managed displays. So far as I understand (and it may not be much), sRGB is about the best we can do for the great unmanaged. Whose expectations of accurate colour are, after all, lower than ours. At least until they return those garments they ordered online.

          T
          Test Screen Name
          Legend
          May 6, 2017

          I think the reasoning goes like this: (1) I want to see how other people will see this (2) they won't have my fancy monitor or software (3) they will have system default photo viewers (4) so if I use the system default photo viewer I will see what other people see. (5) it looks different from Photoshop on my computer (6) yet I want everyone to see the same thing (7) and Photoshop is supposed to be professional software (8) but it can't even do this simple thing. Photoshop is therefore junk. It is quite hard to accept that almost all other software, computers, systems and monitors are junk (from a colour point of view) especially if your starting world view is that clearly a professional tool can make a good image that everyone will see correctly.

          TheDigitalDog
          TheDigitalDog
          Inspiring
          May 6, 2017

          https://forums.adobe.com/people/Test+Screen+Name  wrote

          I think the reasoning goes like this: (1) I want to see how other people will see this

          Stop right there. You can’t do this. You have no control over what other’s see. If they have a calibrated (how?) and profiled display. If they use color managed browsers. IF they have these conditions met, you’ll get closer but in no way can you know what they are seeing and if it matches what you see. So #4 above isn’t true.

          You can control what you see on your system(s). That requires color management and color managed applications.

          Now if and when you can provide a color reference display system to everyone in your audience and they load a calibration target (settings) and use the same colorimeter along with a color managed application, #4 will be true. Don’t hold your breath on that ever happening!

          Ever walk into an electronics store with 25 TV’s all getting the same RGB signal? Ever see them all match? No. So forget about #4.

          Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"
          T
          Test Screen Name
          Legend
          May 6, 2017

          And you CERTAINLY can't make any monitor behave like a different monitor by using the profile for that other monitor. It doesn't work that way, any more than writing a different model number on the label would.

          D Fosse
          Community Expert
          D FosseCommunity Expert
          Community Expert
          May 6, 2017

          https://forums.adobe.com/people/Test+Screen+Name  wrote

          And you CERTAINLY can't make any monitor behave like a different monitor by using the profile for that other monitor. It doesn't work that way, any more than writing a different model number on the label would.

          Yeah. Let's just sum that up too, in, er...very simple terms:

          A monitor profile needs to be an accurate description of the monitor's actual, current behavior.

          That's the one, basic requirement that needs to be met. It's just like any other profile: adobeRGB1998.icc has to be an accurate description of the Adobe RGB (1998) color space, as defined.

            T
            Test Screen Name
            Legend
            May 6, 2017

            On an sRGB monitor yes. But you said you had a wide gamut monitor. Has anyone said you can turn that off and make it behave like a normal monitor to both managed and non-managed apps?

            Roei Tzoref
            Roei TzorefAuthor
            Legend
            May 6, 2017
            https://forums.adobe.com/people/Test+Screen+Name On an sRGB monitor yes. But you said you had a wide gamut monitor. Has anyone said you can turn that off and make it behave like a normal monitor to both managed and non-managed apps?

            Test Screen Name you do know you can edit your comments to add all in one right? I mean if you are referring to one post, it's just more easy to follow.  just making sure. appreciate your input all the same of course. just seems irregular way of posting to me. be yourself of course.

            I know some monitors allow sRGB mode in the hardware. it made sense to me that the software could limit the color range as well. in any who, this was the way I saw it was implemented in my news channel studio so I picked it up from there. that is, the sRGB fake/bad/inconceivably wrong profile in color management for WG Dell monitors. I don't mean to step on any toes here, just stating the visual result where photoshop and my screen and other screens produce more or less consistent results once I change/ruin/work completely wrong the the monitor to sRGB. when doing so, seeing the result in my home computer dell monitor was visually the same as seeing it in iMac displays which were sRGB. I figured this madness would be over when I buy my new sRGB monitor but hadn't felt it was the time yet. waiting for my screen to crack open or something... thank you all for all your dedicated posts.

            https://forums.adobe.com/people/D%20Fosse  This stuff "just works", if people would just leave it alone. Run the calibration, done. It will basically work at default settings. Photoshop will handle it correctly at default settings. Windows color management will handle it correctly at default settings.

            you should understand by now that I did not mess with my settings because I get a kick out of it. a kick in the gut maybe... I wish this was true for my situation. as I said, I guess the monitors that I have been using are so screwed that only sRGB faux profile could actually work. no one will calibrate these professionally in my work studio, and in my home I tried to work with the i1display pro and set a profile and it was still not clear to me what image should I trust more since photoshop was way off anything else. in my home and everywhere else.

            T
            Test Screen Name
            Legend
            May 6, 2017

            There isn't an easy way to know which apps are colour managed, and Microsoft even change it beteween releases. My recommendation is to use only Photoshop, none of the others can do you any good at all. If you want to see what other people see, use a different computer and normal monitor, nothing on your screen will tell you that.

            TheDigitalDog
            TheDigitalDog
            Inspiring
            May 6, 2017

            It’s rather easy to know which applications are color managed: They match the color from applications you know are color managed like Photoshop, Lightroom C1 and (not to rub it in) a slew that come free on Mac’s.

            Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"
            Show more replies
            Terms & ConditionsAccessibility statement
            Using the community Terms of use Privacy Cookie preferences Do not sell or share my personal information ad choicesAdChoices