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Inspiring
September 16, 2022
Question

Wrong color settings, assigning wrong color profiles

  • September 16, 2022
  • 4 replies
  • 1373 views

Some people claim that the color management in all of the Adobe apps should be set to Adobe RGB (1998), cause this profile has a wider color gamut and its for professionals. Some people don't even think about it - if its set like that by default, they just leave it that way.

 

But is that a right thing to do? Most of the time they work with sRGB content, not with Adobe RGB content. Most of the images on the web or in our PCs, cams and phones are sRGB. If an RGB image is untagged, the safest bet is that it is sRGB.

 

So these people are seeing wrong colors all the time, am I correct?

 

When you view untagged sRGB images with your color management set to Adobe RGB, they look more vibrant, which is cool, but is it accurate? Were these images originally meant to look like that? If the camera that took them was set to sRGB, why you look at them 'through the prism' of Adobe RGB? I'm confused here.

 

And now comes a related question: is it very wrong to intentionally assign wrong profiles to images for creative purposes? For example, you have some sRGB images that look a bit dull, so you assign them the Adobe RGB profile, so that they look more vivid.

 

And let there be no misunderstandings - this post is not about Adobe RGB vs sRGB. Adobe RGB is used by many pros, but that's something else - its an informed choice. They know what they are doing, they set all of their software and hardware to that profile, they are using it in a proper way.

 

Thanks for your opinions

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    4 replies

    NB, colourmanagement
    Community Expert
    Community Expert
    September 20, 2022

    "And now comes a related question: is it very wrong to intentionally assign wrong profiles to images for creative purposes? For example, you have some sRGB images that look a bit dull, so you assign them the Adobe RGB profile, so that they look more vivid."

    It's not wrong, it can be part of a creative process. In fact Joseph Holmes the fine landscape photographer makes and sells working spaces with 'nested' variants - the purpose being to assign those to add or remove stauration. Over my career I've found those to be super useful

     

    p.s. its not setting Adobe RGB that’s the issue, it's opening untagged files and ignoring the fact.

    If we are set to Adobe RGB and an untagged sRGB file arrives there should be a warning if colour settings are set up right. My advice would be for the user to ignore the warning dialog's options, simply open, view and now consider assigning a different ICC profile (such as sRGB) to see if it corrects the appearance.

     

    Of couse ALL of this relies on good display calibration and profiling 

     

    I hope this helps
    neil barstow, colourmanagement net :: adobe forum volunteer:: co-author: 'getting colour right'
    google me "neil barstow colourmanagement" for lots of free articles on colour management

     

    sd5e8aAuthor
    Inspiring
    September 16, 2022

    @TheDigitalDog  and @Bob_Hallam, thanks for your explanations. But you seem to be pro photographers (or something along those lines) and you know exactly what are you doing. Most people (including me) do not (fully) understand all this.

     

    So to put it in layman's terms: should I also set my color management to Adobe RGB or not?

     

    Now it is set to sRGB as a 'safe choice'. Most of the content that I work with is identified by the apps as sRGB (or in case it is not tagged, the safest bet is that it is sRGB). I do not work with super-duper photographers and RAW files, that's too deep for me.

     

    I'm into prepress (books and stuff). I'm not a super-pro, but it works. If the color management is set to sRGB and the content is not tagged, it will be displayed "through the prism" of sRGB. I guess that's the "right prism" in this case. sRGB will also be set as a source profile for conversion to CMYK.

     

    So you have images originally created with sRGB in mind, they are displayed as sRGB and they convert from sRGB to the CMYK profile required by the printer. The situation is clear.

     

    But if I set all the apps to Adobe RGB, then Adobe RGB will be a source profile for converting to CMYK and if that's wrong - the CMYK images will be wrong, cause they will be based on something wrong.

     

    And this might also mislead someone that there's something "wrong" with the images and he might want to edit them in order to "fix them".

     

    I hope you understand what I mean. There must be some kind of logic in this. But if there're no rules - then fine. I will set the color management to whatever pleases me visually, like Wide Gamut RGB or ProPhoto RGB, so my (originally sRGB) content will appear saturated and shiny and it will "look cool".

     

    I understand that we can break some rules occassionally, but generally, I doubt that this is a good idea.

     

    Sure, you can convert from one profile to another if necesary, but I think that the right term here would be assigning or maybe color-managing and that's something different.

    TheDigitalDog
    Inspiring
    September 16, 2022

    @sd5e8a wrote:

    Most people (including me) do not (fully) understand all this.:

     

    Time to understand it if you want to move forward.

    We ALL have to learn basics be it image processing, color management or driving a car at some point; none of us are born with such knowledge.

     


    @sd5e8a wrote:
    So to put it in layman's terms: should I also set my color management to Adobe RGB or not?

     

    That's a new question. The answer is Yes, No or Maybe. So start here on this forum with a recent post that is similar in nature. And at this point early in the discussion with a white paper published by Adobe on the subject, peer reviewed, published and up since 2006::

    https://community.adobe.com/t5/color-management-discussions/which-color-profile-to-use-for-digital-media-adobe-x-srgb/td-p/13172904

     

    There are no perfect RGB working spaces
    In a perfect world, there would be only one RGB working space that was ideal for all uses. An
    ideal RGB working space would be one that could fully contain all the colors from your capture
    device or the gamut of the scene, and the gamut of all your output devices.

     

    The author attempts to make it clear from the start, no such answer to "what must I use" is clear cut! 

     

    Keep in mind this quote, it's really important in terms of 'ideas' floating around web forums (including this one) if I can be so kind: ("Some people claim that the color management in all of the Adobe apps should be set to Adobe RGB (1998), cause this profile has a wider color gamut and its for professionals"): 

    ”The reason there's so much ignorance on the subject of color management, is that those who have it are so eager to regularly share it!” - The Digital Dog

     

    Need a true experience in testing Working Spaces for output, here is one video for that:

    The benefits of wide gamut working spaces on printed output:

    This three-part, 32-minute video covers why a wide gamut RGB working space like ProPhoto RGB can produce superior quality output to print.

    Part 1 discusses how the supplied Gamut Test File was created and shows two prints output to an Epson 3880 using ProPhoto RGB and sRGB, how the deficiencies of sRGB gamut affect final output quality. Part 1 discusses what to look for on your own prints in terms of better color output. It also covers Photoshop’s Assign Profile command and how wide gamut spaces mishandled produce dull or oversaturated colors due to user error.

    Part 2 goes into detail about how to print two versions of the properly converted Gamut Test File file in Photoshop using Photoshop’s Print command to correctly setup the test files for output. It covers the Convert to Profile command for preparing test files for output to a lab.

    Part 3 goes into color theory and illustrates why a wide gamut space produces not only move vibrant and saturated color but detail and color separation compared to a small gamut working space like sRGB. [/i]

    High Resolution Video: http://digitaldog.net/files/WideGamutPrintVideo.mov
    Low Resolution (YouTube): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLlr7wpAZKs&feature=youtu.be

     

    Without Color Management, the prisms you speak of do not exist. Also discussed in the previous post referenced.

    Yes, I was indeed a professional photographer, long before Photoshop and ICC profiles existed. 

    Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"
    sd5e8aAuthor
    Inspiring
    September 16, 2022

    Thank you for the reply and the video, I appreciatte it. I noticed these things in the video:

     

    - At 18:07, the video says: "Assign profile command - using it incorrectly shows incorrect preview of the numbers".

     

    That's exactly what I'm talking about from the very beginning - one should not view the content through a wrong "prism". And these "prisms" obviously exist.

     

    As the video confirms, asigning a wrong profile is basically lying that X is Y. Its like putting a label "banana" to an apple.

     

    Then why should my content (originally encoded as sRGB) be viewed through the Adobe RGB's "prism" - as some people suggest? It makes no sense to me.

     

    When the image has no embeded ICC profile, its role is assumed by the color setting of the app (Photoshop, Acrobat...). So if I'm not wrong about it, its the same as embedding / assigning an ICC profile. So why should I set my color settings to a wrong profile - as some people suggest?

     

    If you view a narrow gamut image with a wide gamut profile - the colors will appear saturated, which might look "cool" to some, but its wrong. And if you view a wide gamut image with a narrow gamut profile - it will look dull, which is equally wrong.

     

    As I said, one should assign only the right ICC profile to the image. If it was encoded as sRGB (or it is assumed to be that) - then you assign sRGB. If it was encoded as Adobe RGB - then Adobe RGB.

     

    - Another thing: at 1:40, your video says: "All photographic images started from raw data".

     

    So the experiment began with RAW images, which could be converted to a wider gamut profile (ProPhoto) or narrower gamut profile (sRGB). And then the results could be compared on the screen and they could be printed and compared on paper. But I don't have such an opportunity. I only have sRGB files. I must work with what I have.

     

    This means that the RAW data in my images has already been converted to sRGB (by the camera or by some software) and I assume that during the process some data has been discarded. If I'm correct about that, then the damage is done.

     

    Then why should I view my images in a wider gamut (Adobe RGB), when they were encoded in a narrower gamut (sRGB)? Its like forcing the image to show something that is not there. Correct me if I'm wrong.

     

    And of course, I understand that preparing images for printing from a wider gamut RGB would be better than from sRGB. But the experiment in the video started from RAW and I can't start from there.

     

    Thanks.

    Bob_Hallam
    Legend
    September 16, 2022

    It is not wrong at all.  ICC profiles are created and used for different purposes.  sRGB for internet use, and larger gamut profiles for printing.   The assigned and embedded profile provides the correct appearance for the file.  If you are the "artist" then the correct appearance is yours to decide.  When files are converted from Raw camera sensor information, the photographer makes many choices to determine how an image should appear.  Then those pixels are created in the color space or container profile.  If you choose a different one as in your example where you choose the larger gamut Adobe RGB instead of sRGB.  Just remember to convert it back to sRGB for internet use if that's how you want to use it.  That will preserve the color profile choice you made.  

    ICC programmer and developer, Photographer, artist and color management expert, Print standards and process expert.
    TheDigitalDog
    Inspiring
    September 16, 2022

    @sd5e8a wrote:

    Some people claim that the color management in all of the Adobe apps should be set to Adobe RGB (1998), cause this profile has a wider color gamut and its for professionals.


     

    Who says such nonesense? Here's what I'd tell someone making such a statement: 

    "All generalizations are false, including this one." -Mark Twain

    And no, I find no usefulness for converting my raw data into Adobe RGB (1998), its gamut is too small for my needs. 

    Outside color managed applications, sRGB is meaninless. The 'raw' RGB values, who's scale is unknown, is sent directly to the display. On an sRGB gamut display, that may look fine (but different for all users). On a wide gamut display, it will look awful. So sRGB without color management isn't useful. This is true of all RGB color spaces. 

    No camera produces sRGB or Adobe RGB (1998). They all produce some raw data which has an undefined color space. They can use their proprietary processing (their internal raw converter if you will) to convert that into a JPEG that is either sRGB or Adobe RGB (1998). There isn't anything that stops the camera makers from producing any other RGB color space from the raw. 

    Yes, it is fundementally wrong to intentionally assign the wrong color space. Just as if you asked me how tall I am and I said 6 meters instead of 6 feet. 

    You have an sRGB image that looks 'dull': why? OK, it is one, you want to boost saturation 'blindly', there isn't harm in assinging it something else but that's mainly a solution in search of a problem. Is it dull because it isn't being color managed? That's a real issue. 

    None of this has anything to do with accurate color. It has everything to do with pleasing color (desired color). Accurate color is often very ugly to view! 

    http://www.color.org/scene-referred.xalter

    As for "most images" on the web are sRGB, keep in mind it doesn't matter when the browser uses color management and there are millions upon millions of wide gamut displays using color management today. 

    Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"