Known Participant

Question

Are there 2 conflicting interests with Dreamweaver's intended use?

Forum|Forum|9 years ago
December 9, 2016
13 replies
9515 views

I have an idea posted here

Here are 2 supplemental videos packed with evidence and elaboration on that idea ^

1500 Reasons why Dreamweaver CC 2017 is not ready for full stack developers - YouTube

7 things that would have made Dreamweaver CC 2017 useful to developers - YouTube

I seek to start a discussion here based on the following premise:

I suspect there are only 2 types of users for DWR and they need 2 different pieces of software

User Type A: Coders who use code view 99-100% of the time <- (this is me)
- we stopped using BBedit right around 2005, (v 8.2 or so) when we found Macromedia's version of Dreamweaver
- we manage sites, write code all day, and use DWR as our launchpad, development and site management suite
- we don't care about the design view one single bit
- we often fire up SSH to change file Perms when the right click "set file perms" options does not work in DWR
User type B: Designers who are not 'afraid of code', but pretty much shy away from it
- they likely use the design view and occasionally swap a color HEX value.
- they likely think responsive design and CMS system websites can pass web standards by using a GUI like Photoshop + DWR design view.
- they likely call Type A often when things need to be done right, and that's OK, nothing wrong with that.
- they likely have never typed "cd" into an SSH window.

"Following Adobe's acquisition of the Macromedia product suite, releases of Dreamweaver subsequent to version 8.0 have been more compliant with W3C standards" [snip Adobe Dreamweaver - Wikipedia ]

=> This natural evolution seems to have stopped with the release of CC 2017 where as a clear conflict of direction and purpose has become evident. As a "Type A" user I loved almost everything about Dreamweaver CC 2015... till CC 2017 came out. Adobe fixed bugs and made improvements on each release while:

Keeping all of the past features
Improving on existing features
Adding some new features.
while managing to never ruin the original intent of the software

That dream has now ended.

I don't know whats going on over there at Adobe, but as a user on the front line using DWR every single day it is pretty clear to me that something internal has happened. Maybe the old development team is gone? I don't know, but I do know something really bad has happened with CC 2017 and I suspect a great many others have noticed this as well. I hope to bring attention to that fact by writing this.

2 weeks ago I updated to DWR 2017, and to my horror I realized I was not using a standard upgrade from a version 2.0=>3.0, no indeed, I was using a piece of mostly untested software with a great many well tested and very useful features removed, features that I used on the daily.

A harsh assessment of DWR CC 2017 could be stated as follows:

"It's as if a graphic design team with no coding experience or prior knowledge of the Dreamweaver family or CC 2015 release was turned loose and allowed to brutally gut out and molest everything - from the intuitive language of interface design to the very core features and functionality itself: CC 2017 has been ruined. Imagine using a Phillips-head screwdriver, and one day someone deciding to replace the tip of the Phillips-head with a hex key and expecting you to believe that it's an improved version... your not going to be fooled."

"Dreamweaver from Adobe is the industry-leading web development tool that lets you efficiently design, develop and maintain standards-based websites and applications. Dreamweaver 8 provides a powerful combination of visual layout tools, application development features, and code editing support." [Adobe]

=> I feel that application development features and code editing support have been ignored in CC 2017 and fear that they will continue to lose support unless we communicate to Adobe that CC 2015 was in the right direction and CC 2017 is the wrong direction for Full Stack developers.

There are easily 1000+ ideas and 300+ bugs in the "feature request forum" that should not even exist as feedback.

Adobe Dreamweaver: Bugs: Hot (308 ideas) – Adobe Dreamweaver CC: Feature Ideas

Mind you, nearly all of these things in that forum ^ worked fine in CC 2015

What do you think?

Has Adobe decided to simply abandon a progressive version based release model for Dreamweaver?

The other apps (premiere, photoshop, illustrator, ect...) work mostly like they used to and have improved but on examining Dreamweaver CC 2017, the answer seems to be yes...

Do you think that the direction of Dreamweaver for full stack development in the CC 2017 release is an improvement, or a step backwards?

As a full stack developer I think that

CC 2017 is a step backwards
CC 2017 lacks important features that existed in 2015
some of the new CC 2017 features do not belong in Dreamweaver and should be in Adobe Muse instead
Features from Dreamweaver 2015 should be re-instated
Dreamweaver should continue to be a developer tool, or split it into 2 versions

Closing thought: trying to build 1 vehicle that fly's, swims and drives usually ends up doing none of those things very well which is why its better to just have a plane, a boat and a car...

This topic has been closed for replies.

zagarskasAuthor

Known Participant

Update: As of today looks like DWR CC 18 is useful as a development tool again (like 2015 was)

Since this original post and the release of 2018 i've done the following:

Yelled at the screen, complained to peers, posted bug reports, posted ideas, made videos, tried to bring attention to the issues here on the Adobe Forums
Uninstalled 2018 and reinstalled once a week, every week, waiting for it to work
While waiting I considered switching to:
- blumentals PHP, CSS and HTML editors
  - https://www.blumentals.net/
  - conclusion: annoying and not robust enough
- UltraEdit suite (studio, ftp, comapre, edit, ect...)
  - UltraEdit | The Original Text Editor
  - conclusion: almost what Dreamweaver 2018 should have been.., almost
    If Adobe pulls this kind of nonsense with DWR again, UltraEdit is where i'm heading
- PHPstorm, RapidPHP, Netbeans
  - conclusion: they do not integrate with Adobe workflow "seamlessly"
    - annoying things like having to use the ancient "Windows Tree" to assign files and folders. bleh...
    - the FTP process is annoying verity of missing features
      - (mostly psychological, I suspect they may have had features like DWR but I was not intuitively finding them, for example, pressing shft+ctrl+U to upload or ctrl+W to close only the file your on, ect...)
- None of which "fit like a glove" when looking for a replacement for DWR 2015
The GOOD news
- I watched about 140 bugs get patched here:
  - Adobe Dreamweaver: Bugs: FIXED (141 ideas) – Adobe Dreamweaver CC: Feature Ideas
  - including the "FIND" feature which is now split into "ctrl+F" and "Shft+ctrl+F"... finally...
- This guy pushed out an AWESOME code coloring pack that is what Adobe should have done to start
  - Dreamweaver CC 2018 / light and dark themes
  - note: its not quite the same, but it's close...
- 2018 does indeed have GIT integration (kind of... lol)
- It's installed and actually working - without crashing.
TO DO
- I don't understand why this feature does not have 1M+ votes...
  Built-in SSH Client – Adobe Dreamweaver CC: Feature Ideas
  (please consider up-voting this)
- There are still core features "missing" (that 2015 had) such as this:
  Pressing a letter in the keyboard when FILES SITE drop menu is open should continue to filter through the list. – Adobe …

In conclusion:

It seems to me that Adobe has listened to allot of feedback and implemented it (about 75%).

I can actually use DWR 2018 to get some work done once again.

Now, as long as they don't let designers touch this program, ever again, all will be well...

B i r n o u

Legend

after reading this long long... very long thread... what result in it is that Dw is split into continuous interest source...

Developers / Designer
Marketing feature / User real needs
Native feature / rely on external application (including open source and extensions)

it's complicate to satisfy each groups... and makes Dw responding to something really usable

- coders look for coding environment and designer for easy drag and drop intuitiv tools... which both doesn't follow the same goal, or needs

- marketing just need new killers title on the box and users sometimes just need to polish and debugging existing feature

- including open source often block the real use (version, library type or gem, and so on) and extensions often cost extra money, that's is completly normal, and I agree but added to the CC subscription it makes the tool more expensive

having a real gouvernance team made of designer, architect, accessibility specialist, web integrator, pure coders, plugins developers, UI/UX technicien, SEO referer, marketing CC products, Dw engineer, dummy new bie, client for final products... and so on... and being only involve in a CAB prerelease... and listen by folks @adobe

because, now

whatever the users profile is... the web site or app produce, always need the same requirement... the site must be based on standard, stay responsive whatever the device, get a usability on top of the current user experience, keeping in mind that it must be fast to create, deploy and maintain it...

well... we all look for the perfect tool and IDE for production environement...

well thought there is some requirement...

this environment must be easly usable from non coders, like I am.... because I don't know HTML/CSS, and won't have any time to learn it

concerning, JavaScript ... I've heard the term once, it is the language used by Java isn't it ... ?

how do you say, PHP... euh is it something running on Android ?.... or exclusive dedicate to Macintosh for iPhone ?

DataBase... do I need a data base ?... for what ... my office rely on Mongo ... is it correct ?///... or perhaps it is Mingus ?

Does the version control Subversion works on GIT... because I've got a book on control version and it is about Subversion... and now I red on the box that Dw use GIT

well I could continue.. but I'm sure that most the people will feal as if was assaulting every non coders ... and believe me... I'm hundred miles from it.... and I'm not in this mood... I'm just trying to get the real bottom line if we need to split DW in two section ?....

so I could take an other sample...

I'm happy, I've got my new tool box for my car repairs... and that's fun, because, now I will be able to rebuild evry trouble, what ever they are... and luky am I ... I won't have to learn any mecanical rules... the new build it yourself in 21 days will do the job.... it is wrote on the tool box

pziecina

Legend

First Birnou, i always select the 'like' feature when something makes me smile, (and would select it twice if i could when something makes me laugh). That is not to say that i think what you say is wrong, but this part did made me laugh -

https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u wrote
having a real gouvernance team made of designer, architect, accessibility specialist, web integrator, pure coders, plugins developers, UI/UX technicien, SEO referer, marketing CC products, Dw engineer, dummy new bie, client for final products... and so on... and being only involve in a CAB prerelease... and listen by folks @adobe

90% of those advising the Dw team on Dw's future, have no idea what is happening in the web development world, and most of the subjects listed have no place in deciding what or how features should be included.

As for cab and pre-release, get rid of them, or at least make the criteria for joining relevant to web development in practice.

Note: The question to ask about anyone advising the Dw team on requirerments and how something should be implemented is -

"would you employ that person to build and manage a project for a site costing between £10000 and £20000?"

If the answer is no, then get rid of them.

Paul-M

Legend

zagarskas, I really do not understand the logic in splitting Dreamweaver into two programs, set up your panels and workspace up to suit how you work but do not look to penalise other users who use a large portion of Dreamweaver features and do not want to be jumping between two different programs.

Dreamweaver was supposed to be a good all-rounder, if anyone else has another big or radical idea god knows where it’ll end up. So splitting into two programs, as simple as it sounds, no thanks!! If you're a coder and not interested the other features of Dreamweaver then go use brackets, sublime, atom etc. If you're not a coder, no need to use code view but I do think Dreamweaver is a good learning tool for beginners and intermediates for transitioning from a WYSIWG environment to coding.

The last big idea was shoe-horning Brackets into Dreamweaver. I’m pretty sure it took the developers quite a few versions to fix bugs and restore lost features as a result of the poorly planned Brackets integration and I’m not sure they are there yet, linting seems to be a pile of dooh dooh!! I was never a big fan of the Brackets thing, IMO one of the worst decisions, the time and effort wasted on (a) integrated brackets (b) fixing problems c) restoring and building back in features lost as a result of it. SURELY time could have been better spent??

I think in recent years, Adobe has had some bad ideas of what Dreamweaver should be, badly conceived, poorly planned and poorly executed. The biggest culprit IMO is the person or persons responsible for the roadmap and big decisions, maybe the developers have zero say in this but that doesn't excuse them being implemented with all the bugs and problems in each new version.

I would urge the Dreamweaver developers to think carefully before considering another big transformation or feature, instead:

1) Fix

2) Tidy Up

3) Minor Tweaks

Paul-M - Community Expert

zagarskasAuthor

Known Participant

Energize,

the whole point here is that in DWR there are features designers like to use that are useless and annoying for development, and for Full Stack development there are design features that are ruining the usefullness of DWR as a dev tool.

An analogy:

Putting doors on a pedal bike to make it safer. Thats dumb, just make a car and for anyone riding a bike make a helmet, no need to make a "bike with doors"

for example, these 7 things would have made DWR the ULTIMATE full stack development tool in my opinion:

7 things that would have made Dreamweaver CC 2017 useful to developers - YouTube

youtube.com/watch?v=RJxmBJqiXuo

What do you think?

Paul-M

Legend

I've got a really GREAT idea ... if you want to code and don't like all the other stuff that Dreamweaver has to offer, why don't you try eeehhmmm BRACKETS!! Yes that's right the very same editor that's was integrated into Dreamweaver, except with standalone Brackets you'll get a heap more features plus the options of a shed load of add ons.

This idea of splitting it into two when users have been using the all round tools In Dreamweaver for years would be a final kick in the teeth for long-time Dreamweaver users.

Paul-M - Community Expert

haleyt88803336

Known Participant

I agree there are two types of basic users for DW, I also agree or think that Adobe has taken DW and gutted, cut, reworked and for the most part lost a highly motivated core audience in its progression since DW 8.2 ( I know a long time ago). They bought a market at that time that was less than professional coders, not really true designers but could provide basic application building via PHP (specifically the Kollection extension ( i know old, antiquated and hard to keep updated) but it worked and it allowed many people to provided basic development for the average business owner without deep pockets.

DW is and always has been a intermediate step below hard core coders, thats a given fact. DW will never be for hard coders we all know that. DW is what it is, and in the past it worked great. DW now is basically becoming just a layout program something like Quark for the Web. In going this route they are throwing away the base and that made Dreamweaver useful to 70% of the web page development marketplace in my estimation. sitestorepro.com keeping saying that Adobe is talking with them to add a collections like extension but those talks have been going on for 4 years now. If they have this they should release it to hopefully recapture some of what DW once had as a client base or ricks losing 80% of the clients they have now I think. Just my 2cents

pziecina

Legend

Whilst i can understand users frustrations with the removal of SB's, and the discontinuation of web app building extensions, I can also understand why Adobe discontinued them and are reluctant to offer users a replacement.

Many users would continue to use them if it was possible, with a number of users still complaining that they cannot do so to maintain old sites, (some wanting to even build new sites with them). This would place Adobe, and the creators and owners of the sites in a dangerous situation, as the Dw user i am certain would use those extensions to create shopping carts and collect a sites customer information.

I don't know what the legal situation is where you are, but in the U/K and the rest of the EU countries, there is a not so small matter or the data protection act, and the sale of goods act. These mean that all collected data must be securerly protected, something that anything using the old mysql php connection cannot do, as its major flaw was in its password feature, (it was unsecure).

The sale of goods act, also applies to the creation and sale of web sites, in that they must be fit for purpose. If you were to have created a site in the last few years and used the mysql connection, there is a very strong chance that the site would be considered as being unfit for purpose at the end of next year. This could allow your client to claim the costs, (or at least partial costs plus legal fees) of the site back from the developer, as it is considered that the developer should know what they are doing and be aware of any and all upcomming developments. Including the fact that php 5.6 will no longer recieve even security updates after the end of 2018, and will effectively become a 'do not use' server side tech -

http://php.net/supported-versions.php

The only argument against Adobe removing the SB's and extensions from Dw, would be that they should have updated them to use pdo, and stored procedures, for which everyone could file a feature request, (i did about 6 years ago, with no answer from anyone).

Paul-M

Legend

pziecina with that argument then nobody should ever build a website ever again for a another party for fear of being sued in 5 years time, at some point they all become outdated to a degree but that does NOT mean they that critical security issues are ignored, they should always be patched immediately.

Unless we all decide to work for free for our clients and update without charge ever single aspect as and when a new version or the latest 'recommended' practises are introduced then there will be and is plenty of ‘older’ code out there. You'll have a hard job on your hands convincing clients to spend £100s or £1000s on a refresh a lot of the time, that’s the reality of it, its just not practical or do-able all of the time, regardless of what you think.

I think you'd be more likely to get sued for not living up to your obligations in the accessibility department in the UK. To scaremonger over the mysql extension is wrong too, with the lack of prepared statements yes the onus was on the developer to be vigilant and audit code. I 100% wouldn't advocate building a new site with the mysql extension but lets not go too far and turn it into the devil all of sudden, a large portion of the internet was built on the mysql extension for some time and I’m pretty sure we got by and I’m pretty sure there are plenty of sites still using it that could ideally do with being updated, that doesn’t mean they are wide open security risks.

Why are people so keen to condemn old features that may be needed from time to time, the SB panel is available as an extension anyway, if you don’t need it, don’t install. But better it it’s available for those that need it on an odd occasion. Also some developers built MySQLi extensions that utilise the SB panel.

Paul-M - Community Expert

Paul-M

Legend

For those that work in a code environment and don't need design view/live view maybe take a look at RapidPHP / Webuilder. It has a lot of features and extra plugins including an Emmet and SASS plugin:

Blumentals Software - HTML editor, PHP editor

BTW it also has FULL customisation of code colouring

Paul-M - Community Expert

BenPleysier

Community Expert

For those that work in a code environment and don't need design view/live view maybe take a look at RapidPHP / Webuilder. It has a lot of features and extra plugins including an Emmet and SASS plugin:

Although I do have some sympathy for some of your on-going criticisms, you have lost me with the above statement, especially when it provides a background to going to another piece of software.

The parts that I do not understand

the sudden unnecessary design view/live view after an elaborate thumbs down!
where is ADDT and the server behaviours panels in the proposed software?
why prefer Emmet and SASS plugins to Dreamweaver's built in support?

Anyway, enjoy your new software and, with a bit of luck, we will be rid of a lot of verbal garbage regarding Dreamweaver CC2017.0.1

Happy New Year!

Wappler is the DMXzone-made Dreamweaver replacement and includes the best of their powerful extensions, as well as much more!

Paul-M

Legend

I think you'll find I;m going nowhere, if you like you can post one of your pathetic, immature photos again!! How old are you again? You seem to have the emotional maturity of a 5 year old, you don't like people having a different opinion to you .... so what, get over it and get over yourself. You'll find a lot of people are not happy with DW 2017, if you don't like my forthright opinions ... tough!!

Unfortunately you my friend seem to be a lot more interested in getting people to click the little 'helpful' or 'like' icons next to your posts than actually making a real difference to where the software goes, years ago the Macromedia Dreamweaver community was full of very clever, knowledgeable people, now we just have people like you trolling the forums ... enough said and no wonder Dreamweaver will be gone in a few years!!

You're arguments are very strange ... Looking at Dreamweaver's current state the Bluementals software is worth looking at as an option for people who work mainly in code view and may seek an alternative to Dreamweaver

Paul-M - Community Expert

Paul-M

Legend

Its was supposed to be an all round tool - this pigeonholing is probably where it all starting going wrong. Firstly when Adobe made a decision on how it would fit in their product line and clearly decided they were going to drop a lot of the server side tools like ADDT and built-in support for PHP/MySQL which eventually was so out of date it was a convenient excuse to drop support rather update with MySQLi or PDO.

Adobe either doesn't grasp or doesn't care that people build there workflow around programs like Dreamweaver and when they start ripping the guts out of it then it makes our lives difficult and costs us a lot of time. Yes we have to move with the times but I still have to work on many websites that ideally need replacing by complete new ones but clients cannot be forced into these decisions.

My final point is that its becoming extremely embarrassing for Adobe that they keep making a mess of Dreamweaver. Live View is and always has been disaster imo, instead updating design view would have been a better option and the latest Brackets integrations is the final straw. No logic to it whatsoever, it's a mess and if people want Brackets I'm sure they will use the FULL standalone Brackets with all of its extra features.

The 2017 version of Dreamweaver removes more features and creates a lot more problems, the existing code editor was solid enough and a few tweaks would have sufficed and freed up more time to add a few more much needed features, instead they wasted god knows how many hours on the Brackets crap so they could make a big announcement, Adobe has totally lost its way with Dreamweaver and is slowly killing it (maybe that was the intention all along )...Freehand, Fireworks, Dreamweaver!!

Paul-M - Community Expert

Nancy OShea

Community Expert

And there is User Type C:

People who want to use DW to build HTML Emails, a hybrid document with tables, inline CSS and a bunch of other stuff that's not technically W3C compliant.

Nancy

Nancy O'Shea— Product User & Community Expert

davidhelp

Inspiring

I am type D

D for Dave

Paul-M

Legend

The whole point of Dreamweaver was that is was a good/solid all round tool especially when Ultradev/DW merged into one tool years ago - You could build your workflow around it from prototyping in the companion program Fireworks to design/layout and development in DW. Adobe stopped support for Fireworks and ripped out a shed load of features from DW and gave us not very much in the way of new/useful features, what they do add tends be glitchy, have performance issues, sometimes seems to be a complete waste of dev time and leave you scratching your head.

I think Adobe will do what ever the want with DW they have demonstrated since buying Macromedia they either don't understand DW or don't care what users want.

Paul-M - Community Expert

Rob Hecker2

Legend

How can a development environment be geared to coders if it doesn't include debugging tools? There is no such thing as a coding IDE that lacks debugging tools. That is why you will never see a review of PHP IDE's that mentions Dreamweaver.

HTML and CSS don't need debugging. The W3C markup validation service is all the debugger needed. Javascript needs a debugger, but there are Javascript debuggers built into browsers. PHP, on the other hand, requires debugging tools in the development environment.

I'm not criticizing Dreamweaver. I'm just pointing out that the product cannot target serious coders due to the lack of PHP debugging tools, and a few other features one finds in an IDE.

I see DW as a tool for front-end development. The integration of linting, preprocessors, and even bootstrap, and the fact that the database tools were dropped, all indicate that the DW development team shares this view.

zagarskasAuthor

Known Participant

Rob Hecker

Thank you for your input, but when I debug I do so in the following way:

Live testing server, push files, password protect htaccess
- for me: DWR is a suite for managing and developing, not debugging
Chrome inspector for CSS and JS
- real browsers are used - no sims ( literally 20+ browsers installed via virtualization)
  - only rarely is browserstack used
- real devices are used - no sims (literally 30+ devices on stands some using Reflector2)
  - only rarely is a sim used
PHP will most always tell me where the problem is error_reporting(-1);
error_logs and server side tools do the rest

I find that this method shows me 2 important things that simulators and other IDE's have not in the past:

what users actually see on the live site
what hackers might actually try on the live site

Sound insane? To some, im sure... but consider that my server environment changes constantly, Windows, Apachie, Linux... heck i've got a client that is still using ColdFusion and another one that runs PHP right along site "classic" ASP.NET.

When I debug any of the accounts listed in my site manager they could be drastically different on a daily basis. For me the best way to do that was to dev in DWR, upload, refresh Chrome and open the inspect element tab, then download the error_log right into DWR and simply read it...

DWR does indeed do some debugging, it shows convenient little red "x" on certain lines when it detects a brace is missing or other minor things in PHP and JS which is helpful in debugging a human syntax error. Ultimately, I have never really had a problem debugging a live site in a test environment letting the log tell me where the problem is and personally prefer it to jEdit or PHPstorm...

Maybe I should not be using Adobe DWR anymore to dev and manage sites when faced with that kind of stack? That said if you have some suggestions as to another IDE I should consider using please feel free to elaborate what you might do in that situation.

Rob Hecker2

Legend

DWR does indeed do some debugging

Well. . .I think you are unfamiliar with debugging tools. There are two main debuggers for PHP. Xdebug and ZendDebug. I think ZendDebug used to be open source but no longer is. It is packaged with Zend Server, which is the web server I use. Xdebug is open source.

Debugging tools allow you to do such things as set breakpoints and view the state of variables at different stages of the script. IDEs like Eclipse / Zend Studio provide an interface for these functions, but use the Zend debugger or Xdebugger underneath.

There is a fantastic PHP debugging tool included with Zend Server call Z-Ray. After a script runs, it allows you to view extremely useful information which you could not easily access otherwise. For instance, it shows you how a prepared statement populated with bound parameters looks when it goes to the database, revealing missing parameters or parameters populated differently from how you expected. Z-Ray also lets you see the state of all $_SERVER, $_SESSION, $_COOKIE and $_POST variables.

BenPleysier

Community Expert

This is going to be interesting, so far (not including myself):

2 x constructive/positive
1 x destructive/negative

Wappler is the DMXzone-made Dreamweaver replacement and includes the best of their powerful extensions, as well as much more!

osgood_

Legend

BenPleysier wrote:
This is going to be interesting, so far (not including myself):
2 x constructive/positive
1 x destructive/negative

Sadly Ben the truth hurts .....we all know you don't like to hear the truth. Any reasonable web-developer, although it may be difficult to initially prise themselves away from their beloved choice of editor, would do so if it was failing their expectations. Seems like a positive move me.

Personally I think DW should be a bare bones editor with optional extensions for stuff like Bootstrap, Css Panels etc if you require it. That would appease both those more point and click operators and those that prefer to code. All this nasty included stuff, in the eyes of some operators, just 'dirties' the software.

So yeah, I agree with the OP there should be 2 versions which we know is not going to happen BUT wait a minute it has - Brackets.

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