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zagarskas
zagarskas
Known Participant
December 9, 2016
Question

Are there 2 conflicting interests with Dreamweaver's intended use?

  • December 9, 2016
  • 13 replies
  • 9515 views

I have an idea posted here

Here are 2 supplemental videos packed with evidence and elaboration on that idea ^

1500 Reasons why Dreamweaver CC 2017 is not ready for full stack developers - YouTube

7 things that would have made Dreamweaver CC 2017 useful to developers - YouTube

I seek to start a discussion here based on the following premise:

I suspect there are only 2 types of users for DWR and they need 2 different pieces of software

  • User Type A: Coders who use code view 99-100% of the time <- (this is me)
    • we stopped using BBedit right around 2005, (v 8.2 or so) when we found Macromedia's version of Dreamweaver
    • we manage sites, write code all day, and use DWR as our launchpad, development and site management suite
    • we don't care about the design view one single bit
    • we often fire up SSH to change file Perms when the right click "set file perms" options does not work in DWR

  • User type B: Designers who are not 'afraid of code', but pretty much shy away from it
    • they likely use the design view and occasionally swap a color HEX value.
    • they likely think responsive design and CMS system websites can pass web standards by using a GUI like Photoshop + DWR design view.
    • they likely call Type A often when things need to be done right, and that's OK, nothing wrong with that.
    • they likely have never typed "cd" into an SSH window.

"Following Adobe's acquisition of the Macromedia product suite, releases of Dreamweaver subsequent to version 8.0 have been more compliant with W3C standards" [snip Adobe Dreamweaver - Wikipedia ]

=> This natural evolution seems to have stopped with the release of CC 2017 where as a clear conflict of direction and purpose has become evident. As a "Type A" user I loved almost everything about Dreamweaver CC 2015... till CC 2017 came out. Adobe fixed bugs and made improvements on each release while:

  1. Keeping all of the past features
  2. Improving on existing features
  3. Adding some new features.
  4. while managing to never ruin the original intent of the software

That dream has now ended.

I don't know whats going on over there at Adobe, but as a user on the front line using DWR every single day it is pretty clear to me that something internal has happened. Maybe the old development team is gone? I don't know, but I do know something really bad has happened with CC 2017 and I suspect a great many others have noticed this as well. I hope to bring attention to that fact by writing this.

2 weeks ago I updated to DWR 2017, and to my horror I realized I was not using a standard upgrade from a version 2.0=>3.0, no indeed, I was using a piece of mostly untested software with a great many well tested and very useful features removed, features that I used on the daily.

A harsh assessment of DWR CC 2017 could be stated as follows:

"It's as if a graphic design team with no coding experience or prior knowledge of the Dreamweaver family or CC 2015 release was turned loose and allowed to brutally gut out and molest everything - from the intuitive language of interface design to the very core features and functionality itself: CC 2017 has been ruined. Imagine using a Phillips-head screwdriver, and one day someone deciding to replace the tip of the Phillips-head with a hex key and expecting you to believe that it's an improved version... your not going to be fooled."

"Dreamweaver from Adobe is the industry-leading web development tool that lets you efficiently design, develop and maintain standards-based websites and applications. Dreamweaver 8 provides a powerful combination of visual layout tools, application development features, and code editing support." [Adobe]

=> I feel that application development features and code editing support have been ignored in CC 2017 and fear that they will continue to lose support unless we communicate to Adobe that CC 2015 was in the right direction and CC 2017 is the wrong direction for Full Stack developers.

There are easily 1000+ ideas and 300+ bugs in the "feature request forum" that should not even exist as feedback.

Adobe Dreamweaver: Bugs: Hot (308 ideas) – Adobe Dreamweaver CC: Feature Ideas

Mind you, nearly all of these things in that forum ^ worked fine in CC 2015

What do you think?

Has Adobe decided to simply abandon a progressive version based release model for Dreamweaver?

The other apps (premiere, photoshop, illustrator, ect...) work mostly like they used to and have improved but on examining Dreamweaver CC 2017, the answer seems to be yes...

Do you think that the direction of Dreamweaver for full stack development in the CC 2017 release is an improvement, or a step backwards?

As a full stack developer I think that

  1. CC 2017 is a step backwards
  2. CC 2017 lacks important features that existed in 2015
  3. some of the new CC 2017 features do not belong in Dreamweaver and should be in Adobe Muse instead
  4. Features from Dreamweaver 2015 should be re-instated
  5. Dreamweaver should continue to be a developer tool, or split it into 2 versions

Closing thought: trying to build 1 vehicle that fly's, swims and drives usually ends up doing none of those things very well which is why its better to just have a plane, a boat and a car...

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      13 replies

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      O
      osgood_
      Legend
      December 9, 2016

      Whilst I appreciate your very insightful and well versed post - what decent developer cares about DW?

      If you write code mostly by hand then use some other editor. Don't be a muppet to the Adobe hierarchy who seem to be clueless and mostly only care about how many rounds of golf they can get in. They lost the plot long ago. Anyone who has frequented this forum long enough have made that clear on numerous ocassions.

      The more developers that shift away from DW the better then just maybe they will finally wake up and start listening to those people who use it. For my part unless I'm desperate I will never upgrade DW again as its too bloated for my purposes, now packed full of stuff I'll never need and never use.......so I have largely moved away, mainly to Brackets which is also an Adobe creation BUT for dedicated coders its sweet, lean and lightning fast. Yes, it lacks good file managment but from what I've read it is still being developed going forward. For the past 9 months the Brackets team has largely been occupied by integrating it into DW. I dont quite know what they have shifted across and how good it works within the DW environment.

      I only hope they do not abandon Brackets to concentrate on its devlopment within DW BUT I would not be surprised - why would Adobe waste time on further developing  a FREE editor, some would say much better than their paid for one,  when others are paying for it - it don't stack up.

      zagarskas
      zagarskasAuthor
      Known Participant
      December 28, 2016

      in response to osgood_)

      I do buddy, indeed I do. I prefer Adobe because it fits into my workflow. I deal with a number of clients (firms and company owners alike) who send Adobe resources constantly.

      Adobe products have made my life much easier. I don't come here to post ideas in the Adobe forum to mindlessly troll the company about its product and complain, I come here because I want these tools

      ...and whats more, I want them to work well.

      On any given day I am receiving Adobe Kuler color profiles, a layered PSD file from the designer with links to Adobe Stock, links to CC download assets, fonts from TypeKit, a non-working landing page done in Adobe Edge and some junk they attempted to mock up using Adobe Spark. That is fantastic. Now my job is to take those "pieces" => launch a VPS with a firewall, build a Magento eCommerce store, layer on an AdWords campaign, tie in some landing pages, install funnels and tracking, pass speed scores, validate the SCHEMA, ensure OG:metta is working and then test it all on 10-15 devices and maybe an HD monitor or 2.

      For me, that means using Adobe Software in my workflow.

      Know whats AWESOME about that? It's tripped my business for 2 reasons:

      1. First off it acts as a bridge between my systems => for example:
        • manage webfonts for text on screen directly in DWR
        • exporting images from PSD into the skin/frontend/default/ folder for a custom Magento theme
        • double click em in DWR and hop back over to PSD
        • retype some text ensuring the right 'designy' font is used
        • adjust a graphic from the stock library,
        • make sure the colors match the Kuler profile
        • save it, export it, code up the CSS and PHTML files as needed, (still in DWR mind you)
          • maybe drop a custom plugin in, do an F&R over the whole app/code/core library to patch a Magento bug
        • complete the theme, push it live
        • hop over to the iPad G1, 2, 3, and minni for a REAL preview using Edge Inspect, (and occasionally Reflector2 or Virtualised OSx with xCode)
      1. Second, it acts as a bridge between the customer and me = > This is 2 fold:
        • It shows the client they "cant" do this on their own, but they CAN show me exactly what they want
        • It allows them to deliver assets to me in an efficient way, (especially when multiple teams of people are involved.)

      Bottom line: From 2001 to 2007 that was hard to do... in 2008/09 without THAT ^ workflow in place a custom Magento site and campaign of that scale would have been 25-50k (With easily 50+ hours of file, asset, approval and project management BS) a 6 to 9 month project maybe 4 months if I subcontract a couple guys. If I wanted to do a crap job I could go buy a template, but years of experience have proven that to be really dumb...

      With the workflow I now use I can pump out that SAME campaign for 8-16k in sixty to ninety days.

      (note: graphic design not included)

      Now if you think that somehow "does not make me a decent developer" then I suppose the IRS and my client list would disagree with you, but maybe you are right, maybe i'm not a "decent developer"? Maybe I am a good freelancer, and guess what? I use DWR to build Apps, CMS themes,  launch web based campaigns and support them 24x7.

      I love my job. I love that clients can "rent" Adobe software and bridge the gap between us, or at the very least learn why hiring a pro is effective. I do not like what is happening to a tool that helps me enjoy my work. I want my voice to be heard, I have "invested" in this company since 2001 and so far its been a wise move, the CC2017 release of Dreamweaver is causing problems => the squeaky wheel gets oiled.


      "quod erat demonstrandum" and good day to you sir! lol

      O
      osgood_
      Legend
      December 28, 2016

      zagarskas wrote:

        I don't come here to post ideas in the Adobe forum to mindlessly troll the company about its product and complain

      Some one has to do the 'donkey' work for you otherwise you wouldn't be getting as good a product as you currently are, rest assured of that. You owe those that DO complain a sense of gratitude IF you can't be bothered to do so yourself.

      zagarskas wrote:

      For me, that means using Adobe Software in my workflow.

      Now if you think that somehow "does not make me a decent developer"

      Reap what you sow. IF Adobe has you in their pockets then there's not much you can do about it really but to 'suffer' what they give you. I've now moved on from DW, and very much doubt if I'll ever return to it. Its been a difficult decision but because I feel it 'swings' both ways which means it has to dilute its attentions I feel there are better products suited to my particular workflow.

      Its difficult to say who/what is a decent developer/workflow - some using Muse would say they are decent developers and what's the point in writing any code, maybe they are right. Im sure in their minds they think they are right. We all have our own ideas as to what/who constitutes a decent developer.

      hans-g.
      hans-g.
      Legend
      December 9, 2016

      Hello zagarskas,

      thanks for your detailed development of a "Please Split Dreamweaver into 2 products - one for Coders and one for Designers".

      In my eyes a similar idea I tried to bring over Adobe's developers in "How can we improve Adobe Dreamweaver?" The link is:

      Divide the display of Dreamweaver files (instancing) onto two separate screens. – Adobe Dreamweaver CC: Feature Ideas

      Unfortunately it's landed in "Backlog", Nevertheless I've found more than 60 supporters. Maybe you too could "climb on the bandwagon" too.

      Hans-Günter

      zagarskas
      zagarskasAuthor
      Known Participant
      December 9, 2016

      Hans,

      I will take a look. Thanks for the info.

      BenPleysier
      Community Expert
      BenPleysierCommunity Expert
      Community Expert
      December 9, 2016

      Without commenting (due to lack of time) on your well presented rhetoric, I would like to point out that the refresh button still exists and well in the bottom left hand corner of the Files panel.

      Wappler is the DMXzone-made Dreamweaver replacement and includes the best of their powerful extensions, as well as much more!
      zagarskas
      zagarskasAuthor
      Known Participant
      December 9, 2016

      Ben,

      Thank you, that's helpful, and crosses off one of my concerns.

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