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pziecina
Legend
July 16, 2019
Question

Are web dev forums part of the problem?

  • July 16, 2019
  • 4 replies
  • 2513 views

We are back in the school, college or whatever holiday periods, so little is happening.

My discussion is prompted by Nancys discussion on cheap web sites, (fiverr.com) and the rise of d.i.y. Site builders such as wix, and the frameworks such as bootstrap and wordpress. Along with the demise of Muse, and the lack of Dw having a clear plan for the future, (or do they).

Given that almost anyone can build a site now, cheaply, and to a resonable standard using site builders or even programs like Dw, Wappler and webflow. Is it unreasonable to expect anything other than clients turning to alternatives to the traditional web designer/developer?

We even offer to help those turning to those alternatives, simply by answering questions that they post in forums such as this. Some of us then go on to make public 'how easy it is' to build sites by those 'click to do' methods that Dw and other offerings use.

If we think it is easy, and everything should be easy, then why should clients pay us to do anything, after all if they get stuck, all they have to do is ask here or in one of the many other web dev forums. One of Adobes reasons given for EOLing Muse, was that wix, etc, does it better and cheaper. By that I would say they could see that the market for designers/developers building small static or simple cms dynamic sites was no longer profitable.

So should we even consider helping those creating small buisness or personal web sites, (in some cases almost building the site for them). Or should we stop and think about how much help we should give first?

No reply requirerd, just a few 'musings' I am having today.

    This topic has been closed for replies.

    4 replies

    Nancy OShea
    Community Expert
    Community Expert
    July 16, 2019

    I hardly think this product forum is part of anything -- problems or otherwise.  As far as I can tell, it caters mainly to  the gray-haired, walker brigade (myself included) who remember building sites 10 years ago with relative ease.  The formula was simple  then:   Create a  template, add images, text and some MM behaviors. Voila! a site  that the client can maintain in DW.  

    In fact, I'm looking at one such site right now from another forum post.   In its day it was probably very well received too.  But by today's standards,  it's an epic failure on multiple levels.  That just goes to show how complex the web is now and why serious developers must keep learning new skills or get out of the profession.

    I'll happily answer product and coding questions but I am not here to apologize for how DW works, do homework or build a free site for someone.   My only goal is to inspire users to learn new things. 

    Incidentally for anyone interested, the W3C is offering a  5 course certificate training program  for Front End Web Developers.  Cost: US $500.   According to their site, the average salary for front-end web developers in the US is $104,745.

    https://www.edx.org/professional-certificate/front-end-web-developer-9

    Nancy O'Shea— Product User & Community Expert
    pziecina
    pziecinaAuthor
    Legend
    July 16, 2019

    https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea  wrote

    Incidentally for anyone interested, the W3C is offering a  5 course certificate training program  for Front End Web Developers.  Cost: US $500.   According to their site, the average salary for front-end web developers in the US is $104,745.

    https://www.edx.org/professional-certificate/front-end-web-developer-9

    Just to put that salary in perspective, the w3c also says a small web site costs under $250,000.00.

    But yes the $104,745 is possible, (mine was more). What they do not say is at what employment level one must be, and what other skills on must have.

    Legend
    July 16, 2019

    I dont mind providing help to those that want to learn the fundamentals correctly and maybe then go onto a web dev career armed with some knowledge which will enable them to have a transportable skill, hopefully an advantage in unlocking better opportunities and securing a long term future as a developer.

    I dont have any time for the total framework, plugin junkie, click and drag, here today, gone tomorrow zombie though, although l can see what type of person those kinds of workflows maybe suitable for.

    lm still learning and some of the requests are of interest, albeit few and far between these days, so responding will generally expand my knowledge too, it works both ways.

    Also as you know these automated workflows are only capable to a point,  good enough for beginners but as you become more discerning and your visions and expectations grow their limitations start to show, quite frequently.

    Not all websites are equal on account not all developers are as open with clients as they should be about what workflows they use. The unsuspecting client could end up with a pup on their hands, regardless of what they paid for it, a good reason for any client to think carefully when its too cheap to be true.

    Its only going to get worse but its largely not my problem these days. Im just a voice for those that still have some pride in what they do.

    Happy days!

    B i r n o u
    Legend
    July 16, 2019

    Yes, I completely agree with Brad's point of view.

    why make a website, and what are we talking about, what is the purpose when we talk about creating a website?

    and then is it a website, or an application or something different?....

    so many questions that will completely refine the answer and can be oriented differently this answer.

    I know so many companies, non-profit associations, organizations that simply need some online communication tools, using or not using complements through social networks... and they have done everything, and set up from A to Z, only with online tools and some tutorials here and there.

    the communication works, the feedback is positive, (we can always discuss yes but... and if... and if... or it would be better if...) but well... the web largely works like that... it is also a little bit for this reason that about ten years ago the name web 2.0... the participative web

    why pay for a web development?..... uh.... no (apparent) reason

    and to take Brad's example, if a plumbing job becomes too complex, then it's certainly time to call a plumber... and therefore pay her for a service that will be fully justified

    pziecina
    pziecinaAuthor
    Legend
    July 16, 2019

    https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u  wrote

    why pay for a web development?..... uh.... no (apparent) reason

    So where are all these people taking degrees, learning the trade, (so to speek) being employed.

    Yes, I know everyone knows my view, in that it is in the development of large commercial applications, with the company/organisations 'landing pages' being no more than a 'side show'.

    But what does everyone else think, and is it possible to move from developing small sites, (better done by wix, etc) to large applications?

    Legend
    July 16, 2019

    pziecina  wrote

    Is it possible to move from developing small sites, (better done by wix, etc) to large applications?

    .

    Anything is possible but its not likely. If you are using an automated builder then you are going to be technically inadequate therefore ruling yourself out of any possibilty of landing a job not only in an average development  agency but certainly one that is above average building large, complex applications. Thats just my opinion.

    Those that use the wix approach are using the 'good while it lasts attitude' then moving onto the next career whatever that is. These folk have no passion for anything, they just drift along the wind. Sadly there are more of them in this day and age.

    Brad Lawryk
    Legend
    July 16, 2019

    I'll generally try and help people on forums such as the Wappler community or even people in real life as it often creates a learning opportunity for myself as well.

    pziecina
    pziecinaAuthor
    Legend
    July 16, 2019

    https://forums.adobe.com/people/Brad+Lawryk  wrote

    I'll generally try and help people on forums such as the Wappler community or even people in real life as it often creates a learning opportunity for myself as well.

    But you have not mentioned the underlying question.

    Why should people pay you to design/develop a web site, after all, all they require is a template, then forums will answer any questions they may have, show them how to do anything, or even do the work for them.

    Brad Lawryk
    Legend
    July 16, 2019

    Sorry, I did miss the point made in your initial post. ;-)

    Back when I did have my own web design business I used to encourage those that wanted to do it themselves. More often than not they eventually became clients once they found out that they couldn't do what they wanted so easily. If they didn't become clients in some way they likely never were going to be clients.

    I think almost every 'service' based tarde/occupation is facing the same thing. If I need to fix some plumbing or fix my car I can simply go to Youtube. I don't though. I choose to pay the people that do it.

    But I'm rambling here ...

    Why should people pay us? I think the ones that are serious about their site do pay. The ones  that don't are perhaps less knowledgeable in current trends, technology and likely aren't big Internet users in the first place. I think in a lot of cases the more help and resources available to the self designer group the more overwhelmed they get.

    Yes, there will be some people that successfully build their own sites. My wife for example with no web design experience has successfully built a couple sites in Weebly. Probably took her five times as long as it would have taken me but she was able to meet the goals of those websites. So I think if you can do it yourself these days, why not?