Legend

Question

Bootstrap [Locked]

Forum|Forum|6 years ago
March 23, 2019
4 replies
4831 views

Yeah. It's certainly controversial. In my opinion, the entire subject of frameworks is controversial... But I think it's really a fabrication born of a want for instant gratification, regardless of the price. I've heard people on this forum make outrageous claims as to the benefits of using Bootstrap and its market acceptance - often in an attempt to claim that it is "the choice" of professionals. While my candor probably overshadows my CSS skills - especially in this particular forum - I believe Eric Meyer is still widely considered a master with CSS. So, I thought this post he recently made was quite telling:

https://hashnode.com/post/i-am-eric-a-meyer-ask-me-anything-ciomnbpxy003rmz5330u90oqb#cip79vpkr07rnxz531v1adygi

You have to read between the lines a bit, and you need to understand that Eric's job calls for a fair amount of diplomacy, as opposed to my hammer approach 🙂

By again, I have to bring it to the attention of average Dreamweaver users, that while Adobe might need to squeeze a page layout system into Dreamweaver, I understand that they do not employ serious web coders and had to go with something off the shelf. But for folks that portray themselves as experts on this forum to openly endorse the use of Bootstrap... I think it's unconscionable.

This topic has been closed for replies.

Brad Lawryk

Legend

What is the point of this discussion? Perhaps this topic should be locked.

ALspAuthor

Legend

The point has been made. .. Quite telling, actually :-)

Since I turned down the capability to lock threads, feel free if you are so inclined.

ALspAuthor

Legend

Here is an interesting email that came in this morning. Sadly, we receive a good number of such mails. Read into it what you want, but to me it is telling.

rayek.elfin

Legend

As far as Bootstrap, Foundation, and other front-end frameworks go: in my opinion don't use them unless you have good knowledge of front-end dev, and only if the situation calls for it, which is often a personal or team's call to make.

I think Bootstrap and other front-end frameworks are deceptive in that it might SEEM as if it makes things easier for a complete beginner or novice coder, but never forget these frameworks were conceived by experienced dev teams to simplify THEIR project workflow. Not to provide a crutch to be relied on by front end coders with a lack of foundational skills.

Relying on one of these for pure visual web development by novices (and the DW devs) is a logical assumption to make, but one that in practice only hurts them in the long run.

Dare I say this? Better to completely hide the code from non-coders in this case. Allow them to make a mess, and focus on visuals alone. Like Muse. Non-coders by choice are not going to want to learn html and css anyway.

B

Ben M

Community Expert

I think the debate of using Dreamweaver is the same as using a framework. DW comes off as confused and bloated much like a framework. Working mostly with larger organizations lately, most of the need to use a framework was not because it was the best choice, but it was the fastest option. And it gets even more bloated once you add another stylesheet on top of bootstrap to be brand approved. Knowing what they do, the only time I typically recommend them professionally is when you are working within Marketing Automation platforms. They are a bad blend of web HTML editors and code restrictions that make a normally coded website, otherwise too much of a pain to workaround. So deploying a framework with externally hosted CSS/JS makes for quick deployment of pages.

As far as DW is concerned, I have the latest version running on my machine, but to say I can use it exclusively is just near impossible. First, FTP has been a horrid experience for quite some time so I am a HUGE Transmit fan. Unfortunately I am yet to find an equally viable competitor on the Windows side. For code, a lot of the time I boot up Brackets because DW is loaded with stuff I don't need and Live View's constant saving never really worked as expected so I typically still found myself in code view or design view or a quick approximation as I may not always have a 2nd monitor plugged in and switching between a browser and DW can be cumbersome.

Personally speaking, I don't think DW today is much different from where it was a few years ago other than support for CMS platforms like Wordpress that IMO, brought in the wrong audience to DW. They tried to sell that it could work with a CMS and the wrong people read the marketing material. Then there is the lack of database support since it was dropped, and technologies that change so fast DW cannot keep up (ie: node.js).

ALspAuthor

Legend

I think the debate of using Dreamweaver is the same as using a framework

Actually, the real point I've been trying to raise on this forum is that the problem is not Bootstrap. It's the Adobe experts who lead "average" Dreamweaver users into believing that Bootstrap is the defacto way to build a web page. Dreamweaver is a perfect coding environment for beginners and it should be touted as such. Bootstrap is not the answer to the question "How do I create a web page in Dreamweaver." The upper crust of coders do not use Dreamweaver, and Adobe (along with several ACPs) is steering code newbies to Bootstrap? That is unconscionable.

We should be teaching people how to code. Perhaps some of the experts would not do too well cooking from scratch?

BenPleysier

Community Expert

Reading 'between the lines', our friend Eric, as a very proficient coder, would not have used a framework and I find it difficult to understand that he has an opinion about frameworks. Like, I have never driven a Ferrari, but I would not recommend for or against you purchasing one . I think it is far too bloated with its top speed exceeding 370 Km/h and capable of reaching 100 Km/h in under 3 secs.

I am digressing. Another learned member of the web development fraternity is Joseph Lowery, shows us how to make an existing site responsive with new capabilities in Dreamweaver CC, using Bootstrap. He is aiming this at the average Dreamweaver user, not at proficient coders.

Wappler is the DMXzone-made Dreamweaver replacement and includes the best of their powerful extensions, as well as much more!

ALspAuthor

Legend

If that's your argument, then I rest my case. Thank you, Ben, for missing the point entirely :-)

ALspAuthor

Legend

our friend Eric,

Really?

And you do realize Joe Lowery makes his living writing books about how to use Dreamweaver and how to use Wappler, now, if I'm not mistaken. So, I would fully expect that he would devote a considerable amount of time to Bootstrap. That's the way business works.

Actually, he even marketed an extension through my company many years ago. But I think that was before you descended onto the Dreamweaver scene.

Sign up

To post, reply, or follow discussions, please sign in with your Adobe ID.

Sign in to Adobe Community

To post, reply, or follow discussions, please sign in with your Adobe ID.

Scanning file for viruses.

This file cannot be downloaded