Known Participant

Answered

64 bit ATM deluxe actually works, you just can't install

Forum|Forum|17 years ago
August 1, 2008
11 replies
14047 views

I actually could hardly believe it. Is Adobe Really that lazy that they can't just repackage the installer so it will work on a 64bit version of windows? Well, it seems so.

I went to my coworkers computer, who has the same version of the software as me, and simply copied the whole folder from his computer to the (x86) program files folder.

When I tried to run it, the software gave me an error that there was no database in windows, but it let me create one. Everything worked fine.
I added our company font set, and they are working fine in Photoshop and Illustrator. I didn't check AE, Encore, or Premier, but I assume those are fine as well.

So it looks like all you have to do is install it on another 32bit computer, and just copy the files over. Someone should test that on Vista too. I hear it doesn't work in Vista? Just make sure if you install it somewhere else Just to copy it to the licensed version, you uninstall it on that computer after you are finished copying it.

Hopefully Adobe will get their act together and start making these things compatible with an OS they Claim to be obsolete. 80,000 people are at our company and it looks like everyone who uses Photoshop will be converting to XP64 within the next 9 months. Hmm, obsolete? I think they fail to realize that large corporations don't use the newest software, not that their software is Really that compatible with Vista either. lol

Hope this post helped some of you guys. I'm still laughing inside that something so simple worked.

This topic has been closed for replies.

Correct answer Dov Isaacs

To understand why ATM is no longer supported, you need to understand the history of the product and its original purpose going back to 1989 and the Font Wars between Adobe on one side, with its Type 1 font technology from PostScript, and a coalition of Apple and Microsoft on the other side with their TrueType font technology developed by Apple but liberally "borrowed" from Imagen, a laser printer company from the 1980s.

The first version of ATM for Macintosh was released in December 1989 strictly to allow host-based copies of Type 1 fonts to be rendered "on-the-fly" for the screen as opposed to the user having to install bitmap versions of such fonts tuned to a particular screen resolution and point size. The Windows version followed within a year or so. Effectively, ATM blunted an attempt by both Apple and Microsoft to put Adobe out of business by locking Type 1 fonts out of the desktop. ATM allowed use of fully-scalable Type 1 technology on both Macintosh and Windows before TrueType was actually available for either Macintosh or Windows. This unholy alliance of Apple and Microsoft also pushed a Microsoft-provided clone of PostScript, TrueImage, licensed from Cal Bauer (that's a separate story but needless to say, that CloneScript was really poor and failed very quickly; Apple came running back to Adobe for Adobe PostScript for their new LaserWriters without ever actually releasing a product based on Microsoft's TrueImage).

Subsequently, Adobe released its Multiple Master variant of Type 1 fonts that provided the facility to vary weights, widths, and other aspects of fonts, generating custom "instances" of fonts to better match the designer's needs. ATM was used to control the building and installation of Multiple Master instances.

Over the years, two additional functions were added to ATM. The more recent was support for OpenType CFF fonts (i.e., OpenType fonts with Type 1 outlines) and in the "Deluxe" version of ATM, a very rudimentary font manager.

Over the years, i.e. by the time Windows 2000 and MacOS X shipped, there original raison d'etre for ATM was gone given that beginning with these OS versions, Type 1 and OpenType CFF font support was now native within the operating system based on Apple and Microsoft individually integrating Adobe code into the operating system. The only purpose left for ATM under Windows 2000 and Windows XP was to support creation and installation of Multiple Master font instances. Given that Adobe stopped developing new Multiple Master fonts back in the late 1990s and shortly thereafter stopped licensing them, the need for Multiple Master support outside of Adobe's applications themselves (which still support existing Multiple Master instances, either those primary instances delivered with the fonts or user-created instances) diminished to next to nothing.

The only function left to ATM was that of font management, historically the weakest aspect of ATM Deluxe.

Adobe then had to make a decision in terms of the future of ATM. The bottom line was that given the relatively weak font management capabilities of ATM Deluxe - it provided no auto-activation, was based on very ancient code that was incompatible with new OS versions, and was fairly incompatible with Adobe's new applications, Adobe had to measure the cost of developing, marketing, and supporting an advanced, new generation font management program competitive with other products already out in the marketplace performing similar functions. Simply stated, the decision made at the time was that (a) given the cost of developing, marketing, and supporting a new, industrial strength font manager, (b) given existing reasonable quality font managers available from third parties that seemed to meet the market's need, and (c) given what users were actually willing to pay for such software, it was not worth Adobe making the necessary investment to create a "next generation" ATM.

Could that decision be re-evaluated some day? Maybe although it is unlikely that such a re-evaluation will yield a different decision! But for the time being, Adobe Type Manager is a product that is no longer marketed or supported.

Can you coerce ATM Lite or ATM Deluxe to install on 32-bit Windows Vista? Probably. Will it run on Vista? Possibly although we have heard mixed reports and Adobe won't support you if you mess up your system trying to use it. 64-bit Windows (both XP and Vista) is a different story. The ATM installer is a 16-bit program that simply won't run on these 64-bit systems (same is true with the old Adobe Universal PostScript Printer Driver Installer). Can the ATM code itself run - Andy Engelkemier claims it does, but don't count on it properly interfacing with Adobe Creative Suite applications properly or respecting the multiple user environment. Given that other fairly competent font manager software is readily available at reasonable cost, you should carefully evaluate the value of your time continuing to run an ancient, unsupported, low functionality font manager with no future versus migrating to products are still being developed and supported by their developers.

- Dov

_

_Moon_Dog_

Participant

I realize I am jumping in here late also, but thank you Dov!

I have been using ATM since its early days, and always preferred its light weight approach over the other train wrecks (Suitcase)! I am well skilled on both platforms, but have been mostly Windows based for many years. It seems odd that Adobe would be so entrenched with Font Folio, my preferred source, but not offer a solution to manage it?

I am reinstalling my OS/apps due to a drive failure and wanted to look into the ATM situation. I figured it was an abandoned app, unfortunately. I think it would be great if Adobe offered the source to the open source crowd so future development could continue!

No ATM is just one more excuse for me to stay away from Vista!

Dov Isaacs

Legend

Most of the code associated with ATM Deluxe / Windows has to do with OS interfaces for obsolete versions of Windows (Windows'95, Windows'98, Windows ME) and handling of Multiple Masters font instances, functions that are pretty much irrelevant today.

Surprisingly there is very little actual font management functionality in ATM. ATM typically stored fonts outside of Windows' own font directly (yes, that is permitted and that is the basis of my own, manual font management these days). When you activated a font, ATM called Windows' own font installation routine pointing to the font in ATM's own location. When you deactivated a font, ATM simply used Windows' font uninstall routine without deleting the font files. The font database was not sophisticated. If someone wanted to write a modern day font manager for Windows, they would be much better off starting from scratch than trying to use the over 15 year old ATM Windows code!

- Dov

- Dov Isaacs, former Adobe Principal Scientist (April 30, 1990 - May 30, 2021)

_

_Steve_A_Ryder_

Participant

Interesting history of ATM from the manufacturers point of veiw, Dov. But rather different from my own experience.

As a graphic designer using Mac, ATM deluxe was perfect for managing fonts -designers are addicted to fonts and must have many available all of the time. The problem is that no design job ever contains more than a few different faces; having long font lists is plain tiresome. Once you have decided on your chosen few it is much better to turn off all of the unneeded fonts to free up the system and streamline the interface -selecting fonts is so much easier from a list of five or six!

The other important function that ATM deluxe performed was nearly unseen by most people and so I can understand why it has no mention here. To open a file on a mac is a simple task -double click the file, the application fires up, and the file opens -well not quite. The file requires fonts to display properly and as I have said, designers cannot put all of their fonts into the font folder (There used to be a 256(?) font limit) nor would it be desirable. Without the correct fonts available a Quark (apologies!) file would inform you that fonts a,b and c were not available and font substitution would occur, with all the ensuing mayhem.

Enter ATM deluxe, which would read the quark file, load the necessary fonts from a remote location outside of the system, and allow the application to display the file correctly -all without so much as a dialogue box! Want more font options? -open ATM click on any font you take a fancy to, and return to your application. Hey presto, fonts A,B,C, and now D,E and F are available. That was designer heaven. A small program going about it's task without needing Gigs of disk space or memory, unlike today's fatboy applications, and it had a nice interface - monkey see, monkey choose!

I recently changed to a laptop running Vista. Once I had stopped laughing at the contents of the font folder, I realised the enormity of the problem; 250+ mutants and mongrels locked into the system font folder! Its like revisiting the 1980's..

Where are you ATM, I need you!

Dov Isaacs

Legend

ATM Lite was always free, but that wasn't the original product. The original product was simply ATM and was not free. Yes, it was also bundled with Adobe applications up until the mid-1990s or so. Later on, there was the Macintosh Super ATM product and later, the division between ATM Lite (simply a Type 1 and OpenType rasterizer with support for Multiple Master instance creation) and ATM Deluxe which included the rudimentary font management capabilities in addition to the ATM Lite functions.

- Dov

- Dov Isaacs, former Adobe Principal Scientist (April 30, 1990 - May 30, 2021)

_

_Dominic_Hurley_

Participating Frequently

Dov, refresh my memory - ATM Light was not originally free, was it (though it may have come bundled with Adobe software)?

_

_Herb_V_B_

Participating Frequently

Dominic wrote:

Dov, refresh my memory - ATM Light was not originally free, was it
(though it may have come bundled with Adobe software)?

Not Dov, but I have right here in front of me an upgrade offer from
Adobe offering an upgrade to version 2.5 for only $29.99. Optional
extra: "Include 16 new Adobe faces" for only $39

The flyer has a Copyright © 1992 date.

In the same (original) box that I found that in, I have two 5¼"
floppies - one for Version 1 © 1990 and one for version 2 with the
same © date. And a printout of release notes for Windows version 1.15,
dated April 15, 1991.

- Herb

A

andymatorAuthor

Known Participant

Maybe I spoke incorrectly as well. I'm not sure where the names came from originally I suppose.

I have a few font sets in a folder. I just add one. It imports a bunch of fonts and they are named in a very simlar way.

For example AGaramond-regular:
files -
C:\PSFONTS\gdrg____.PFB
C:\PSFONTS\PFM\gdrg____.pfm

Those are the names in the font set. But once you use ATM to read the fonts all my apps can read them with the correct name just as if they were a regular TTF or something.

(please pardon my lack of knowledge in the font subject. I'm just trying to figure all of this out)

So because the names are all like that, amd I just stuck with ATM, or is there something else out there which can translate those back to more normal looking files that most apps can read?

I'm curious also, how to then make it so another 200 or so employees here also have a few of those select fonts on their computer without needing this special software. I think that might be one reason we use ATM. It comes with our other software so is essentially free. We would probably purchase 15 or so licenses of whatever other software, but most people just need some of the fonts. They don't need to explore fonts. They just need to be able to open and edit some of the illustrator, photoshop, and PDF files which use the fonts. But how does IT install those fonts on multiple computers if we can't really tell what the font names are? I'm just not sure how that works.

_

_Herb_V_B_

Participating Frequently

For example AGaramond-regular:
files -
C:\PSFONTS\gdrg____.PFB
C:\PSFONTS\PFM\gdrg____.pfm

"Those are the names in the font set. But once you use ATM to read the
fonts all my apps can read them with the correct name just as if they
were a regular TTF or something."

You're confusing the FONT names with the FILE names. All applications
display the internal name of the FONT, while the list of files in a
directory displays the FILE names. An exception is the
C:\WINDOWS\FONTS folder, which is 'special' and displays the FONT
names - whether Type 1 or Truetype if they're in that folder.

"(please pardon my lack of knowledge in the font subject. I'm just
trying to figure all of this out)

No problem, It IS confusing!"

"So because the names are all like that, amd I just stuck with ATM, or
is there something else out there which can translate those back to
more normal looking files that most apps can read?"

ATM does no translation, and, as has been pointed out, you no longer
need it anyway.

Yes. The absolutely best tool for renaming the font FILES to match
their FONT NAMES is Font Renamer by Philip Engel (AKA RedEar). It's
free and can be downloaded directly with this link:

http://aljones.us/fontorg/FontRenamer216.zip
The webpage is
http://fontorg.com/download.aspx but it hasn't been updated to
reflect the latest version.

It requires Microsoft dot.net framework version 2.0 (free from Microsoft)

It will rename Type 1, Truetype, and OpenType fonts, and will rename
any associated files, such as .afm and .inf files. It has many
options, can identify and mark invalid fonts, rename in place or leave
the originals alone, produce a log file, and much more.

"I'm curious also, how to then make it so another 200 or so employees
here also have a few of those select fonts on their computer without
needing this special software."

Unless they're running Windows 98 or Mac OS 8, they don't need ATM.
All current operating systems support Type 1 fonts natively. You
install them the same way you install Truetypefonts.

First, make sure that your font licenses allow such multiple-computer
installation.

There are also ways to maintain a central font depository on a file
server. The methods are beyond the scope of this discussion group.

"I think that might be one reason we use ATM. It comes with our other
software so is essentially free. We would probably purchase 15 or so
licenses of whatever other software, but most people just need some of
the fonts. They don't need to explore fonts. They just need to be able
to open and edit some of the illustrator, photoshop, and PDF files
which use the fonts. But how does IT install those fonts on multiple
computers if we can't really tell what the font names are? I'm just
not sure how that works."

Whether you're using ATM or Windows' Control Panel / Fonts to install
fonts, they are always listed by font name. I don't understand the
problem - copying files is NOT the recommended way to install fonts.

I'm a big proponent of renaming the font files anyway. It makes life
MUCH easier. Those ABRG____.pfm names are a holdover from 1980 when
file names were limited to 8 characters. Adobe's newer files, are all
readable file names that reflect the font name.

As an aside, you should be thinking of migrating to OpenType.

One more aside. ATM's default put its installed fonts into C:\PSFONTS
and if I remember correctly, it separated the .pfm files into their
own PSFONTS\PFM sub-folder. This was ALWAYS unnecessary and led to
problems when someone would only copy or back up one or the other of
the two required files. You had the option of putting them all in the
same folder.

If you abandon ATM, as you should, all installed font files will go
into the same C:\Windows\Fonts folder.

- Herb

_

_Rainald_

Participant

Thanks for the recommendation, Herb.

> http://aljones.us/fontorg/FontRenamer216.zip
> The webpage is
> http://fontorg.com/download.aspx but it hasn't been updated to
> reflect the latest version.

The *new* website
http://www.fontorg.us
is up-to-date.

Rainald

A

andymatorAuthor

Known Participant

Yes, thanks you Very much Dov. That was very detailed and well written.

What I'd like to do now is figure out a way to transition our group away from using ATM. I'm hoping there is something out there that can help us transition away from it with a minimal amount of reorganization. It seems that it has changed so many of the names and paths of the fonts that it would be extremely difficult to arrange into something useable. Hopefully our graphic design dept will have some knowledge on how to go about doing that.

If any of you have a few tips on which direction to head I would appreciate it.

_

_Aandi_Inston_

Participating Frequently

> It seems that it has changed so many of the names and paths of the fonts that it would be extremely difficult to arrange into something useable.

I may have missed something, but apart from (optionally) copying files
into c:\psfonts with an unchanged name, how does ATM change the names
and paths of fonts?

Aandi Inston

Dov IsaacsCorrect answer

Legend

To understand why ATM is no longer supported, you need to understand the history of the product and its original purpose going back to 1989 and the Font Wars between Adobe on one side, with its Type 1 font technology from PostScript, and a coalition of Apple and Microsoft on the other side with their TrueType font technology developed by Apple but liberally "borrowed" from Imagen, a laser printer company from the 1980s.

The first version of ATM for Macintosh was released in December 1989 strictly to allow host-based copies of Type 1 fonts to be rendered "on-the-fly" for the screen as opposed to the user having to install bitmap versions of such fonts tuned to a particular screen resolution and point size. The Windows version followed within a year or so. Effectively, ATM blunted an attempt by both Apple and Microsoft to put Adobe out of business by locking Type 1 fonts out of the desktop. ATM allowed use of fully-scalable Type 1 technology on both Macintosh and Windows before TrueType was actually available for either Macintosh or Windows. This unholy alliance of Apple and Microsoft also pushed a Microsoft-provided clone of PostScript, TrueImage, licensed from Cal Bauer (that's a separate story but needless to say, that CloneScript was really poor and failed very quickly; Apple came running back to Adobe for Adobe PostScript for their new LaserWriters without ever actually releasing a product based on Microsoft's TrueImage).

Subsequently, Adobe released its Multiple Master variant of Type 1 fonts that provided the facility to vary weights, widths, and other aspects of fonts, generating custom "instances" of fonts to better match the designer's needs. ATM was used to control the building and installation of Multiple Master instances.

Over the years, two additional functions were added to ATM. The more recent was support for OpenType CFF fonts (i.e., OpenType fonts with Type 1 outlines) and in the "Deluxe" version of ATM, a very rudimentary font manager.

Over the years, i.e. by the time Windows 2000 and MacOS X shipped, there original raison d'etre for ATM was gone given that beginning with these OS versions, Type 1 and OpenType CFF font support was now native within the operating system based on Apple and Microsoft individually integrating Adobe code into the operating system. The only purpose left for ATM under Windows 2000 and Windows XP was to support creation and installation of Multiple Master font instances. Given that Adobe stopped developing new Multiple Master fonts back in the late 1990s and shortly thereafter stopped licensing them, the need for Multiple Master support outside of Adobe's applications themselves (which still support existing Multiple Master instances, either those primary instances delivered with the fonts or user-created instances) diminished to next to nothing.

The only function left to ATM was that of font management, historically the weakest aspect of ATM Deluxe.

Adobe then had to make a decision in terms of the future of ATM. The bottom line was that given the relatively weak font management capabilities of ATM Deluxe - it provided no auto-activation, was based on very ancient code that was incompatible with new OS versions, and was fairly incompatible with Adobe's new applications, Adobe had to measure the cost of developing, marketing, and supporting an advanced, new generation font management program competitive with other products already out in the marketplace performing similar functions. Simply stated, the decision made at the time was that (a) given the cost of developing, marketing, and supporting a new, industrial strength font manager, (b) given existing reasonable quality font managers available from third parties that seemed to meet the market's need, and (c) given what users were actually willing to pay for such software, it was not worth Adobe making the necessary investment to create a "next generation" ATM.

Could that decision be re-evaluated some day? Maybe although it is unlikely that such a re-evaluation will yield a different decision! But for the time being, Adobe Type Manager is a product that is no longer marketed or supported.

Can you coerce ATM Lite or ATM Deluxe to install on 32-bit Windows Vista? Probably. Will it run on Vista? Possibly although we have heard mixed reports and Adobe won't support you if you mess up your system trying to use it. 64-bit Windows (both XP and Vista) is a different story. The ATM installer is a 16-bit program that simply won't run on these 64-bit systems (same is true with the old Adobe Universal PostScript Printer Driver Installer). Can the ATM code itself run - Andy Engelkemier claims it does, but don't count on it properly interfacing with Adobe Creative Suite applications properly or respecting the multiple user environment. Given that other fairly competent font manager software is readily available at reasonable cost, you should carefully evaluate the value of your time continuing to run an ancient, unsupported, low functionality font manager with no future versus migrating to products are still being developed and supported by their developers.

- Dov

- Dov Isaacs, former Adobe Principal Scientist (April 30, 1990 - May 30, 2021)

_

_Herb_V_B_

Participating Frequently

Dov -

Thank you for that excellent detailed history of the rise and fall
of ATM and how it relates to the font wars of two decades ago. I hope
that you can find your essay a home that's more permanent than this
transient forum.

- Herb

_

_Dominic_Hurley_

Participating Frequently

>So why has this software come and gone?

Only Adobe can answer that. But reread my post for two possible reasons.

>How do i keep track of my fonts now without it?

Use one of the many other font managers available for Windows.

A

andymatorAuthor

Known Participant

OK, I take back that part then. Still, at least other people know a solution for 64 bit installs if they need it.

So why has this software come and gone? What are people doing now?
I've got so many fonts that the software has moved and named some scrambled name. How do i keep track of my fonts now without it?

_

_Dominic_Hurley_

Participating Frequently

>Is Adobe Really that lazy that they can't just repackage the installer so it will work on a 64bit version of windows?

As Mike says, ATM was discontinued years ago, so it's not a case of laziness - I assume it was a simple case of lack of return for resources required or maybe Adobe just decided it wasn't core business. After all, ATM for Windows was really just a mechanism to enable people to use T1 fonts (and, later, MM and OT fonts), with a few basic font management features thrown in. Though I've long been a fan of ATM as a font manager (its simplicity was what I loved about it), I realise its day has come and gone.

M

michaelbauer

Participant

atm easily makes mm instances. multiple master fonts were the best way i found to fit a lot of legible text into a small book format. you you can still use Illustrator 9 to create the size font you need, based on how it flows in the app, then save an exact instance of that mm font to use in indesign. it's complicated, but it makes for very legible small type size in small spaces. much better than type-fitting programs because it scales the legibility of the font to fit the type size.

Show more replies

Sign up

To post, reply, or follow discussions, please sign in with your Adobe ID.

Sign in to Adobe Community

To post, reply, or follow discussions, please sign in with your Adobe ID.

Scanning file for viruses.

This file cannot be downloaded