Proper Names - Definition

>I think you mean "the butterfly effect", so-called because in "The
Sound of Thunder" ...

There's a much more commonly discussed analogy about the beating of a butterfly's wings (in the Andes, I think) causing a hurricane elsewhere in the world. It's been used to illustrate chaos theory for at least 10 years (probably more like 20 years). It has nothing to do with time travelling.

>How about a little diversion (if only to annoy Dominic, being as I've been complaining about him diverting)?

Why would a diversion annoy me, when I've said on more than one occasion that threads wander and that's as it should be? Having said that, I have no other comment to make on your post, because it holds nothing of interest for me.

Oh, I didn't know that Herb. I've only heard of it being used as an example which eventually results in a tidal wave. Rather extreme, but perhaps possible. I'll look out for that story, sounds interesting.

Step away from the thread! ...... Don't make any quick movements! .... Just step AWAAAY from the thread!!!!

Ha ha ... like it Don, Msg 119.

Gosh, I've taken a long time this time haven't I? I just couldn't put my mind to it. Anyhow, here's a long one to compensate :)

How about a little diversion (if only to annoy Dominic, being as I've been complaining about him diverting)? But actually I don't really consider this a diversion to that extent, it's a deeper look into the subject. You label this thread 'trivial' Don, but sometimes things that seem trivial can show such a lot about a bigger picture; they can also sometimes cause such a lot of problems all on their own (millennium bug). It's a bit like the old 'butterfly's wings' theory whereby the effect of such an activity by such a small creature could, by a myriad of follow on causes and effects, eventually cause something big to happen.

I am a great believer in the phrase 'Look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves'. It could be that something small, like the subject of this thread, or like the illogical use and easy sheep-like acceptance of the word 'unisex' to mean both sexes, is an indicator of the state of a society's mind i.e. disordered state. In other words it maybe correct that such use of lower case does actually work in advertising, I don't know, but if it does work, is that in itself a good sign? I keep on thinking of that wonderful line that I think the actress / comedien Lilly Tomlin came out with, "The trouble with the rat race is, even if you win it, you're still a rat".

It's alright, and is perhaps a good sign, to embrace and tolerate disorder to a certain extent, but when a society has no limitations and has an 'anything goes' or 'don't care' attitude and accepts any amount of disorder, well I'm not sure that that is a good sign?

For instance, I was saddened (and worried) to read recently that many children today actually find old films like Hitchcock thrillers boring because the edits are too slow and the camera too steady. Now the over use of the shakey camera technique can be used as an anaolgy to the over use of lower case letters; it's become a fashion rather than a reasoned use of the technique, and if it is true that it works to sell movies then maybe that is something we should actualy be worried about rather than embrace. The wobbly camera and quick edit technique has its place, but when it is over used (or incorrectly used) like it is many times these days it just looses it's effect and seems to be just encouraging hyperactivity in our kids. Likewise, perhaps the over and improper use of lower case letters is adversely affecting our kids in some way?

It maybe that if we were to take more notice of the little things in life (the pennies), such as the subject of this thread, that the bigger problems (the pounds) would then look after themselves.

Right Dominic, aren't they terrible these people who go off track eh? I eagerly await my bollocking :) ..... I jest, actually I consider this post to be far from off track. Sorry, just had to have a break from the main thread. I'll try and get back to it, one item at a time though, but maybe this post has answered some questions on that one anyway.

Heather - interesting opinions about art. Can't get my brain in gear properly to decide on a definite response on this thread but I tend to agree with you. I hope that the improper use of lower case letters is a fad, but if it isn't then I reckon I will only consider myself wrong on the
subject when the over use of the practice can live alongside a peacefull well ordered society.

i So, is a perfectly formed, presumably delicious head of broccoli art?

If it was bio-engineered to be so by a human-being, yes.

Humans created the concept and word art, nature may create things we perceive as artful, beautiful, and worthy of the term, but I think it's personification on our parts. So for my (stress MY) definition of "art" I require purposeful intent. A voluntary act of creation.

P.S. Don, it is obviously too late for me, save yourself, run with all haste and warn others of the dangers that lay ahead. Remember me well.

>Art, (all following text is opinion) is anything which appeals to the emotional, uses aesthetics rather than pure functionality, to elicit a response of any kind. I consider design art.

Then we simply disagree on this. To me, typesetting and design are crafts, not art. I simply don't consider I'm commenting on the human condition when I set type. To me, eliciting a response is not sufficient to elevate a thing to art.

>But that is comparing my forum grammar with finished art grammar is it not?

No, I'm comparing your insistence on the correct use of capitals for proper nouns with your much more relaxed attitude towards correct spelling.

But, seeing as how you continue to try to connect your bad spelling with the deliberate use of lowercase in logos, I will say that I am more bothered by the former than I am by the latter. In fact, as I've said, the latter doesn't bother me at all.

Forum posts and company logos are both attempts to communicate to a target group, and just as you gain an impression of "not particularly accurate" service from Halfords because of their logo (I'm not clear what "less accurate" service is, but I take it that it's not good), I form an impression of you based on your spelling.

>You were right not to be hopeful Dominic, sorry, but I'm still lost with that one.

That's obvious by the fact that you then go on to say "I reckon in general for the purposes of this discussion you could replace the word 'art' in my posts with 'design'". The whole point of this particular sidebar was that you had asked if you had ever stated or implied that designing was art. Now, you turn round and confirm exactly what you had apparently just been disputing. In summary, the discussion was as follows:

* You equated design with art.

* I said that I didn't agree that design was art.

* You asked where you'd said that design was art, apparently because you were now saying that design wasn't art.

* In answer, I pointed to your previous comments.

* You said you didn't understand the discussion, but we could take your comments on "art" to be referring to design.

>Well, I should be their target market because I have a car and I also restore cars as a hobby.

So you have a car and restore cars? So what? What we call "boy racers" over here may well spend far more on their cars than you ever will and maybe that's who they're appealing to. As I've said before, I imagine they did some research and tested the logo before introducing it.

>You see, my argument is that this use of lower case for proper names may have some rare, very rare, times when it actually makes sense, but on the whole I think this myriad use of the effect has no sense to it other than fashion.

Not fashion but effect. Lowercase evokes a different response than uppercase. We're all very aware of the response it evokes in you, but you dont seem to want to accept that not everyone feels the same.
>Well, that's a fair point if I had loads of time to discuss this and I didn't think we were boring the socks off other people on this board ...

Nobody is forced to read this thread. If they're bored by it, then they just shouldn't read it.

>that's rather harsh isn't it? Am I expected to know every rule regarding the proper use of capitals?

When you're criticising the deliberate use of lowercase for proper nouns, I don't think it's asking too much for you to know that "English" is a proper noun and therefore takes a capital.

>What I meant by that politician comparison was when we get onto other subjects ... and hence getting away from the original question.

Well, what you wrote was "Do you know, I think you'd make a darn good politician. They are excellent at answering questions and sticking to the point (cough)."

"Getting away from the original question" was the point of the last part of your statement, but the clear implication of "They are excellent at answering questions" was that I was not answering your questions. And when I first asked you what questions I had not answered, you didn't take the opportunity to say that's not what you meant; instead, you repeated a question I'd already answered. So, are you now saying I have answered your questions? If not, which ones have I missed?

>Art, (all following text is opinion) is anything which appeals to the emotional, uses aesthetics rather than pure functionality, to elicit a response of any kind.

So, is a perfectly formed, presumably delicious head of broccoli art?
>Too late, the longest running and most trivial thread in the section...

Come on, Don. No amount of bragging is gonna get it into Guinness.

Neil

No Heather, no. Back away from the thread ... don't enter it.

Oh no. Too late, the longest running and most trivial thread in the section swallows another victim.

Ok, I can't resist throwing in a couple cents:

Art, (all following text is opinion) is anything which appeals to the emotional, uses aesthetics rather than pure functionality, to elicit a response of any kind. I consider design art. I consider the housing of a computer hard drive art if it is created to appeal aesthetically rather than house a main frame in the most functional base way.

Written language is a form of visual communication, the complexity and sophistication of which strives to mimic the both literal and implied information we are able to deliver in vocal communication which uses a combination of inflection, facial expression and other body language to communicate ideas and thoughts which are not necessarily contained completely within the words used. The rules of written language are complex for that very reason, the more complexity the more minute detail it is able to convey.

When the two collide sometimes the rule of one compromises with the rule of the other. i.e. Aesthetics compromised to communicate the text clearly and concisely, or the rules of grammar compromised in order to elicit a response that may communicate the idea intended better in the "feeling" evoked as opposed to pure written communication. i.e. the difference between writing, "BE SHOCKED!" and finding someway to make the viewer FEEL shocked.

As far as "lines", I believe they are drawn by the individual. In the world of marketing, I suppose the success of the product being marketed would be a barometer of the social acceptance of the "bending" of either rules.

I think that all lower-case is a fad. But I could be wrong. I don't personally find it appealing, but you can't argue with its general acceptance. In language and societal evolution majority always rules.

Anyway, very interesting thread. I hope nobody's feathers are truly ruffled, it's a worthy discussion, but nothing that needs be taken personally.

Non Sequitur is Latin for "it does not follow", usually used in cases where a conclusion is not supported logically by the argument.