Color issues in Mountain Lion with Acrobat Pro

[twsphoto]

I'm not sure I'm in the right forum, but here it goes.

Since upgrading my OS to Mountain Lion, I've noticed  when viewing PDFs output from InDesign 5.5 that once in Acrobat Pro the colors look muted and inaccurate.  I never saw this in Snow Leopard, hence my posting.  Color in InDesign, Illustrator and Photoshop CS5.5 seem just fine, it's only when a PDF is viewed in Acrobat that I see this muted color issue. 

What I'm concerned with is are these problems when viewing only, or is the PDF color range itself screwed up?  I do prepress work and am using an Eizo CG241 display, CS5.5 and Acrobat Pro 10.1.4.

Thanks!

[twsphoto]

I second Rick's cudo, thanks for stepping up to deal with this situation.  I just sent you a response to your "private message" with system and OS stats you've asked for.  If you didn't get that, I can write it here, too.  Let me know if you need me to.

Tim

[Ian_C_Dav]

Hi Sandeep, We have just upgraded to CS6 and Mountain Lion and are experiencing the same issues with Acrobat 10 ignoring colour profiles we have syncronised. I can show you repeating problems on our Macs where I can produce a document in Illustrator CS6 then export it to PDF, which looks widely different in Acrobat 10.1.4.

Like others have said the problem is more 'apparent' on some displays than others, especially if they have been calibrated. I have been using the Apple Digital Colour Meter to show the differences in Documents on the same screen.

We really need this problem fixed soon, Acrobat colour management is crucial for our business. Please include me in your findings and results and contact me if I can help with testing.

Ian Davidson

IT Manager

Tayburn

[Sandeep_V_]

Thank you for providing me the information.

After my findings so far, one thing I can confirm is that A9, X and XI shows same color output with the default Display profile of Mac. I used two brand new Mac machines (Mac Book Pro & iMac) but could not find any difference. But, if I calibrate my Mac and create a new color profile, it's there; I can see a color difference. I tried different color gamuets while calibrating and got different behavior. Could you let me know the color profile selected under Apple Preference-> Display-> Color?

~Sandeep V.

[Ian_C_Dav]

My Mac OS X 10.8.2 Display profile is sRGB IEC61966-2.1.  I have tested this on a Macmini with an old VGA monitor and an iMac 27".  On the iMac the difference is barely perceivable but it is there.  On the VGA monitor the difference in colour is very noticable.

In order to remove subjectivity I am using the Apple Digital Color Meter Application in /Applications/Utilities and measuring numerically on screen the differences between my document in Illustrator CS 6.0.2 in Acrobat 10.1.4

[Rick Meikle]

I have revised the post I just made, deleting the original. In the original I was talking about color profiles along with color temperature and display gamma. All of those, along with a calibrated display, are essential to soft proofing print jobs. However, only the color profile is what matters in the current discussion. Only PDF files with an embedded sRGB profile will display correctly in the current versions of Acrobat and Reader. If a PDF file has a different profile such as Adobe RGB or US Web Coated (SWOP) v2, which is CMYK, it will NOT be displayed correctly by Acrobat or Reader. On my screen, the colors are darker, a bit drab, and shifted slightly toward blue. The color values are correct and will print correctly, but they are displayed incorrectly because Acrobat and Reader assume the profile is sRGB. They have lost the capability of looking for an embedded color profile and rendering colors according to that profile. (Even as I type those words, I can't believe such a basic and essential capability has been lost by any publishing program from Adobe, the champion of color management.) The solution should be straightforward: restore the capability of honoring and using embedded color profiles. It sounds like this arcane world of color management may be somewhat unfamiliar to you, so I strongly encourage you to seek input from the people at Adobe who know it cold. They are probably part of the Photoshop group. Chris Cox might be a good starting point. Thanks for chasing this down, Sandeep!

[Rick Meikle]

As a follow up, the results of your experiments so far have been consistent with a failure to use embedded color profiles. Color temperature and display gamma should only make a difference if you take the file to another computer or display, or change your display settings. So for the purpose of experimentation, you can probably ignore color temp and gamma as long as you are staying on the same system without making changes to its display. If you just change the embedded color profile, sRGB files show look "right." Other profiles should deviate to some degree, but they shouldn't if Acrobat and Reader are displaying them correctly. In all cases the actual color values in the file will remain unchanged. Only how they are displayed will vary. Also please see the next post regarding how profiles are set.

[twsphoto]

When I make hi-res PDFs for output, I use X1A2001, but in the Settings I set it to "Leave color unchanged" and "Don't embed profiles."  My InDesign docs' colors are always straight CMYK process, no spot colors.  When I ask printers what profile they want, they don't seem to know, so I've had great results by simply sending hi-res PDFs with my above settings.  Output looks great, everything is fine, clients are happy.

That being said, in Snow Leopard and Acrobat X Pro 10.1.4, the colors look exactly like they do in my ID/PS/AI master docs and art, and all CS5.5 apps show as synchronized.  With the same workflow in Mountain Lion is where I see this strange sRGB or whatever displayed in the PDFs.  I know it's just a viewing issue and that the actual color is fine, but still it bothers me that a pro app can't show what it shows in a previous OS.

And I second the Thanks to Sandeep for taking this on.  There must be a glitch somewhere, hope he can figure it out!

[Rick Meikle]

If you are using a calibrated display, the calibration software should set your Displays>Color profile for you. Mine is set to "PA271W 0610738UA 2012-11-14 14-57", which is the name of the profile created by the calibration software. This is where color temperature, gamma, and color corrections are stored (in my case for prepress work at 5000K and 1.8 gamma).

Sorry about this long-winded posting, but I think the last few paragraphs may help make some progress, and I must first digress to get to them...

Control of color profiles embedded in my PDF files is done in Adobe Creative Suite (verson 6 at this time). I use Bridge to synchronize the suite. North American Web/Internet is for files going to the web and I apply sRGB to those files when opening them (if they aren't already sRGB). North American Prepress 2 is for files going to a printing press, and I apply Adobe RGB to files when opening them (if they aren't already Adobe RGB).

Files for the web are saved using Photoshop's "Save for Web..." command, which is set to sRGB and uses the Document Profile for a preview.

Files for print are converted to CMYK and placed in InDesign or Illustrator, where they are saved as PDF/X-1a files, which are CMYK and those values are preserved (not color managed). I should note that before that point, during client proofs, the files are placed as Adobe RGB. They are replaced by CMYK images before making a PDF/X-1a file for the printing press. Either way, the files display correctly and identically (except for any color gamut differences) regardless of color mode or application. (This is color management working correctly.) Except for Acrobat and Reader.

Until CS6, all PDF files would be displayed by Acrobat identically to how they appeared in the originating application (Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign). Now all PDF files are darker, more drab, and shifted slightly toward blue.

Here's the weird thing. No matter what I do, even if I start with an sRGB file and save it as a Photoshop PDF using the Save for Web command, so it has been sRGB throughout the process, when the PDF file is viewed in Acrobat or Reader it is darker, more drab, and shifted slightly toward blue.

My first hypothesis was that Acrobat and Reader were applying sRGB to everything. But that appears to be wrong. Now I'm thinking that it's my calibrated display profile that is being ignored. And since it is calibrated for 5000K and 1.8 gamma, that is what explains the big shift in darkness, vividness, and color. It may be that the display profile, not the embedded color profile, is all that matters!

If so, a good experiment would be to calibrate one of your displays for 5000K and 1.8 gamma. If Acrobat and Reader are ignoring the display profile, you should see a very obvious difference in displayed PDF files compared to displays using 6500K and 2.2 gamma (which is just about everyone these days, except for publishing professionals who do exacting print work).

Sheesh!

[Rick Meikle]

One more thing...Mountain Lion has a defect that renders some things without regard to display profile. (This is documented in various forums online.) For example, the Dock icons are bright, vivid, almost garish on my screen. It's what web files I prepare look like when a 3rd party resaves them, which strips out the embedded color profile. (I always have to go back to them and tell them it's OK to rename the file, but not to resave it.) Those files look fine on a Windows machine (and also Macs) running sRGB at 6500K and 2.2 gamma, but without the profile they are bright, vivid, almost garish on a Mac at 5000K and 1.8 gamma. This is more or less the inverse of what is happening in Acrobat and Reader, which is why my first thought was that color profiles were being ignored. But per my last posting it may be that the display profile is being ignored. Anyway, Acrobat and Reader might be hitching a ride on Mountain Lion's defect. Or it may be unrelated, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

[twsphoto]

Thanks for all your posting efforts.  This stuff makes my brain hurt.  It kind of amazes me how much of a mess this color stuff still is, one would think that somewhere along the line we'd have a more cohesive colorflow tech, but I think it's worse now than ever.  Even in places that should know better, aka agencies and design firms, I'm amazed how screwed up displays can be.  My fave is the Art Director who sits next to huge windows with their display facing all that glaring light.  What a perfect place to judge color and tone, eh?

[Rick Meikle]

Yes it is a head banger. Color has become much more consistent out of the box since the early days, but it isn't good enough if you want your screen to show you what will come off the printing press with any real accuracy. My office has north facing windows, neutral walls, and 5000K lighting, plus my display sits on the east wall and has a hood, all in support of getting color right. The problem is that there are so many settings and variables in so many places that when something goes wrong it can be very difficult to isolate, especially when it involves an application that is out of your control. Ironically, as you note, people who should know better are more clueless than ever. With the web taking over from print, a lot of them don't even know that color management exists and why it matters, much less what to do about it. I have studied and applied it for many years, and I'm still banging my head at times. Like this one. The trend is painfully obvious, though. The world has become an sRGB, 6500K, 2.2 gamma place, which does not work very well for soft proofing in print, but meets the masses' needs without them having to deal with it. Or even be aware of it. For now I am optimistic that with Sandeep's help we might be able to forestall color management entropy, at least in Acrobat!

[Rick Meikle]

I'm going to shut up now. (Really.) But I just looked back at all my lengthy posts this morning and realized that I should summarize by saying I think I was wrong initially, when I thought Acrobat was ignoring embedded color profiles. That may still need to be verified, but more experimentation on my part now suggests it is the display profile that is being ignored. Also, Mountain Lion has a defect that may underly the problem. My earliest posts amounted to red herrings.

[Sandeep_V_]

Hi Rick - In my post(#27) I meant what you later mentioned in your post(#33). Reason why I asked you to provide me the environmental details was to ensure that I test it in the same environment. Also, most profiling software automatically assigns the new profile as the default monitor profile and this is again somethings that I couldn't assume. I calibrated my monitor to gamma 1.8 and 5000k (to meet your calibration) and that's when I saw the difference. Thank you for providing me that extra piece of information.

twsphoto - I agree that InDesign and other apps in print production do not show this behavior. I understand how critical it is and even when we know the fact that we see RGB and get it printed in CMYK. Acrobat has always been a reliable app in color proofing and we are committed to meet the expectations of our users. Even when there are so many dependencies and factors in digital world outside of our sphere of influence.

This doesn't end here. I will log a bug with complete details to bring it into the notice of our product management team. I will keep you posted with the udpates.

[Rick Meikle]

Nice job, Sandeep! I'm glad you (or someone at Adobe) saw this discussion and recognized it had some merit. And I'm grateful for your diligence in seeing it through!

[twsphoto]

Thanks seconded, glad Adobe is on the game!!!

[pkazmercyk]

Hi. Thanks in advance for your attention to this matter. At the risk of being repetitive, just want to present the variables I see in the issue as it affects me in the hope it may help you and others. I'm using Creative Suite 5.5 on my Apple Mac Pro desktop and had been on OS 10.7 (Lion) since the summer. All of my InDesign to Acrobat PDFs had been fine both in terms of display and printing.

I upgraded to Mountain Lion (10.8.2) two days ago. Yesterday, I also upgraded from an old Apple Cinema display to a new NEC PA271W-BK (calibrated only using NEC's MutliProfiler software for initial setup). I made my first ID to Acrobat PDF today and was shocked at the results. The color in the PDF was not only very pale, but very yellow overall--nowhere near the native ID file and not what I would have gotten while still running OS 10.7.

While my first thought was the monitor, when I viewed the native ID file side by side with the PDF, there was a world of difference. Opening the PDF in Mac Preview showed the PDF as expected--not dead on to the ID file, but much, much closer.

One other variable: I moved a PDF to a different Mac, an iMac (also running 10.8.2) and viewed the PDF in Acrobat Reader 11.0.0 and it displays well, but the same PDF, viewed in Reader 11 on my Mac Pro is pale with the yellow cast. (This would seem to point to a calibration issue, but one only affecting Acrobat and not other Adobe apps).

I will monitor this thread and can provide additional info if it will be helpful.

[Was DYP]

Anyone know has Version 11.0.01 fix this color management problem?

[twsphoto]

I don't think anyone knows.  As you can see in the thread someone from Adobe is on the game, but nobody has heard anything back yet.  The jist of the problem seems a viewing issue, that the colors in the PDF are accurate even if they don't display properly.  Keep an eye on this thread for further info!

[Ian_C_Dav]

Hi Everyone,

I actually know what is going on. Sandeep and I spent many hours going through the problem together and indentified a bug in Acrobat 10.1.4/11.0. Initially the problem was that Adobe were unable to recreate the problem in the testing lab.  This transpired with Adobe testing using the latest Apple kit with built in monitors (all using sRGB profile). Those of us with calibrated NEC monitors etc saw problems immediately. I agree with Rick Meikle in this forum that Acrobat is ignoring the display profile and defaulting to sRGB. Sandeep is a really smart guy. I'm relieved this has been identified and have been able to tell my team that something is going to be done.

Unfortunately I don't think this fix will be made available in either 10.1.5 or 11.0.1 as the release window would be too tight for testing but don't take my word for it.

I previously asked Sandeep if he could post an update to everyone in the forum about this so I'll remind him to do this.

Regards

Ian

Edinburgh

[pkazmercyk]

Hi Ian. Thanks very much for the update, and thanks to Sandeep for jumping in on this issue and spending your time on it. Since more than one poster (including myself) referred to NEC monitors, I wondered if that might be a relevant variable. Very much appreciate you keeping us posted on all of this!

[Sandeep_V_]

Hello Everyone!

A bug has been logged for this issue and Acrobat product engineering is working on it. Initially, I was using the default calibrated profile of Apple or sRGB IEC61966-2.1 and couldn't reproduce the issue. But as I mentioned in my previous post, custom profile shows the odd behavior. I can't say what's happening in the background but it definitely doesn't seem normal. I don't have an ETA on the fix but I can assure you that our product engineering team has already started testing it and will consider every possibility to fix it as soon as possible.

Ian – Thank you for helping me in reproducing it.

Rick- Information that you provided was very helpful. Thanks for being so patient.

Happy 2013!

~Sandeep V.

[twsphoto]

Thank you so much for taking the lead in this situation!   I'll keep an eye out for a fix/update, etc.

[Bonobanzee1972]

Thank you Sandeep V. I'm looking forward to the fix.

[twsphoto]

Not sure if the latest 10.1.5 updater was to help with this, but it doesn't.  I just did a fresh install of Mountain Lion, all updates accomplished, system is running just fine, CS5.5 is too, and still Acrobat shows the muted color, like before.  Just thought I'd let you know.

We all do, of course, thank you for your assistance.  Maybe this latest update was ahead of the fix for this, but either way, at least we all know someone's on the game!!

[Was DYP]

It appears today's updates still do not fix this color rendering problem. No mention of it in the release notes. Anybody know otherwise.