Digital signatures appearing as an image behind the signature blocks

[Belen Fernandez]

Hi,

I have Adobe Acrobat Pro DC, version 2015.006.30518. I have created a PDF from Word, added signature blocks and saved as Reader Extended PDF, as we always do. Some people from my company have signed the document, so far so good, and then this document was sent to the client, who also signed it and returned it to us. To my surprise, all signatures are gone and I can edit the PDF. But, if I choose not to "higlight existing fields" I can see the signatures behind the blocks. They are not really signatures, however, since they do not appear in the signature panel and I can sign the document.

This has never happened before, what's going on?

Thanks

[MeenakshiNegi]

Hi Belen Fernandez,

Thank you for reaching out.

I did check your PDF form attached with the post. The form works fine on both Reader DC and Acrobat DC.

When I try to open the PDF in Acrobat, it showed only the form fields. No signature visible. However, few signatures were visible on opening PDF in Reader.

I did try to add signature to the form and it worked on both the application. Please check the links mentioned below:

- https://documentcloud.adobe.com/link/track?uri=urn%3Aaaid%3Ascds%3AUS%3A164963a0-73a4-4b26-a944-6d63...

- https://documentcloud.adobe.com/link/track?uri=urn%3Aaaid%3Ascds%3AUS%3A78142252-c277-4051-ad9d-9712... 

Let us know if you can view the test signature or image of the signature.

(Note: I have removed the email addressess of the members in the list)

Could you please share the exact workflow you did to create the form and send it for signature? It will help us to replicate the issue on our end.

We will be waiting for your response.

Let us know if you have any questions.

Regards,

Meenakshi

[Belen Fernandez]

Hi Meenakshi,

Thank you for your reply.

I have downloaded the two files and I can see your signature, just as I can see the signatures of the member of my team before they sent the document to the client. I cannot attach this document because I cannot delete any pages and it contains sensitive information. 

I exported to PDF from Word 2013. Ah, I just remembered, I attached a PDF and created a link to open it, but this have neved caused any problem. After that, I added digital signature blocks and saved as Reader Extended PDF >> Enable more tools. And that's all, I don't know why the client cannot sign using the signature block or how the signatures of my team dissapeared. Could this be because of diferent versions of Adobe?

Thanks,

Belén

[ls_rbls]

××Adding to the discussion,

I think the problem is in the integration of the PDF Maker  Add-in  in MS Word.

I was trying to help another user with convert to PDF amd mailmerge from Word.

If you set password  protection  to protect the documents, this is lost during the conversion. And it doesn't seem to matter how you fix it.

You're going to have to make a copy of the original document, and run the Accessibility Checker in MS Word to spot and correct errors before you convert it to PDF.

OR, run the Accessibility  Checker, in Acrobat to see whatis wrong with the PDF that was exported to MS Word.

As a Microsoft support user suggested to another person here in the forums yesterday, you may have to look into XML file  configuration entries and edit or delete the problematic co figuration entry.

[Belen Fernandez]

Hi,

How are you? Thanks for the reply, although I'm not sure it really applies here.

I said that I exported to PDF, but I did not, I saved as PDF, I don't know if that makes any difference. Also, I run the Accessibility  Checker In Acrobat and didn't see any problem...

I cannot look into XML file  configuration entries, I wouldn't know where to start...

Wew follow the same process with all our documents and never had this problem before, so I'm guessing may be a problem with the other company's Adobe?

[ls_rbls]

++MODIFIED REPLY  (fixing some typos)

Hey Belen thanks for asking, I'm good and still healthy.

I was re-reading through the this thread and I forgot to ask if you're were using digital signature fields for the users to sign them with self-signed certificates,  or was the form created with the Fill & Sign tool and distributed to the users via email?

I'm stressing this difference because digital signature fileds involve a different authentication mechanism where the user must sign with a self-signed certificate (it involves decryption/decryption and root certificate validation mechanisms) versus applying an electronic signature (which is just drawing, wet ink, or stamping with a .png image logo, for example.

I think what happened was that you had digital signature fields but the users were probably signing via web browser or similar PDF viewers. In the case of users that had Adobe Acrobat Reader they would be able to sign but using Fill & Sign on their (which is just an electronic signature on top of the signature field that you created).

To have everyone comply within a standard you should use Adobe Sign. It will allow you to add data and signature blocks for specific users and associate the authentication of those signature blocks with the signer email addresses.

You will also have control of who sign first and who signs last.

And the coolest thing is hat they can sign from a mobile device, tablet, web browser, Acrobat Reader, and Acrobat.

[Belen Fernandez]

Hi, and thank you again for your reply! Glad to read you are doing fine.

The use of Adobe Sign is not up to me... and besides, we had never had this problem before. Other companies have signed our documents with no trouble whatsoever.

We usually place the signature fields using Prepare form >> Digital signature, then the document is saved as Reader Extended PDF.

I think the client uses Adobe Pro, just like us, but I don't know what are they doing, because every document they have to sign cames back like this, with the signatures as images behind the signatures blocks.

[ls_rbls]

Hmmm. I've seen this before at work. 

But in my case, some Acrobat  users where trying to apply an image of a self-signed cerificate in the abscence of the real signer. You know, just trying to speed things up but still quite unethical.

In the end, we had to reeducate users on how to properly use Adobe Acrobat features because documents were coming back to us like that and there was no way to validate the signatures.

Would you mind sharing a screenshot?

[Belen Fernandez]

That may be the case, but I didn't think possible for someone to sign wrong.

This is what we sent to them. 

And this is what we received. At first, we thought there were no signatures, but the client told us to uncheck Show border hover color for fields and voilà. the signatures are there, but they are not signatures anymore.

They said they had to do the same (unchecked this option) in order to see our signatures in the first place, so... 

[ls_rbls]

If in your original PDF , when you right-click on the field, and go to the "Sign Tab" you should have by default the radio button ticked "nothing happens when signed" correct?

I would say that before you send this document for signatures again, you may need to save your your PDF using "Save As Other" ---> "Reader Extended" --->> Enable More Tools, and also protect the document with password and set editing and printing restrictions.

I tested with different options creating self-signed certificates and I am under the impression that your Client may have someone too savvy with Acrobat and tried to do something that in the end resulted in a mess. 

The behavior shown in your screenshots shouldn't occur.

[Belen Fernandez]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the radio button ticked "nothing happens when signed". Where can I check that?

We always save the PDF using "Save As Other" ---> "Reader Extended" --->> Enable More Tools after placing the signatures blocks, I will try using a password too, although once the document is signed (and it was signed), nobody should be able to modify it.

Thank you for your suggestions and your time!

[ls_rbls]

True but you want to make sure that no one opens the unrestricted document and start playing around with Acrobat features before signing.

As for the radio button that I was referering to, it is found in the the signature field when you right-click on it. Select "Properties" from the context menu and then click on the "Signed " tab. You will see a few options there.

[Belen Fernandez]

When I right-click on the signature field the only thing I see is Sign document, there are no more options, should there be?

 

[ls_rbls]

I apologize Belen, I am multi-tasking. 

What I meant was in your original document (if you still have it), not the signed one. The signed document has no value for this to work. You can , however, send it back to the user and ask them to clear/remove the digital signature so you can re-edit and fix it.

[Belen Fernandez]

Ah, sorry, obviously you meant the unsigned PDF. Yes, Nothing happens when signed is checked.

I sent the document to the client again, password protected, let's see what happens...

Thank you again!

[ls_rbls]

You're welcome.

Keeping fingers crossed.

[Belen Fernandez]

Hi again! I'm still waiting for them to sign the modified PDF, but I recently learnt they are using Adobe Acrobat version 11.0.0.379, AGM Version 4.28.32, could this be a compatibility issue?

[ls_rbls]

Hi!  Good catch Belen!

Yes that could be one of the many horrors with that version.

I don't want to say definitely yet because some Acrobat XI users in the forums still report back that their product works and occasionally some minor issues are resolved by clicking Help --->> Repair Installation, then  manually applying its latest planned update.

Their version is not only very old and unsupported, but also missing 4 years worth of important updates since 2013. You may want to recommend your Client to visit the release notes page for that version:

•  https://www.adobe.com/devnet-docs/acrobatetk/tools/ReleaseNotes/index.html#

And if they have experienced issues before, let them know that the only known workaround for that version is to apply the last planned update that Adobe published back in 2017 from the link above.

Have them also look into the known issues for that version:

•  https://helpx.adobe.com/acrobat/kb/known-issues-acrobat-xi-reader.html

There was a known issue for signatures two versions prior. That's why they must update their Acrobat. Some of these issues are always addressed in later version updates.

If, on the other hand,  they have migrated  their old  MS Windows operating system to Windows 10, for example, just know that  recently,  quite a few users have reported issues related to the last Microsoft update that seems to affect that version of Acrobat. 

This may or may not be a direct issue with the  signing of PDFs but it is worth checking out.

To see an unconventional solution that seems to aleviate that other issue, you can also suggest to them to look into this here: 

• https://community.adobe.com/t5/acrobat/acrobat-xi-keeps-crashing/m-p/11072610?page=1#M252255

In that link, have them scroll down all the way to the end of the thread; there is a user with the same Acrobat version that  your Client has and actually found a way to work around the crashing problem.

[Belen Fernandez]

Thank you very much! I'll talk to them and let them know all this because, unfortunately, the test didn't work. I sent a PDF signed and with password and... magic! I receive a PDF unsigned and with no password...

[ls_rbls]

Yes that doesn't look that they're using the  correct PDF handler. Looks more to me that they're using something else, like opening the PDF in a web browser and then saving the  PDF, or printing to PDF... something they're doing wrong.

I just don't understand why some people can't just download and install Adobe Acrobat Reader DC which is entirely free to download and install. This would definitely resolve many isuues when it comes to signing documents and such.

Let's say that if they do adopt Acrobat Reader DC and the problem reoccurs, then there's something really bad going on on their end. And that is hard to troubleshoot wihtout getting my hands on those computers. You may have to refer them to contact Adobe Customer Care directly or visit the support forums so the community can jump in and help them out.

[Belen Fernandez]

I'll pass along your comments, let's see if they can download/update the program and we can do some tests.

I'll let you know, thank you again!!