Developer 101. The proper way forward from Acrobat 5?

[bob3054983]

Out of utter frustration and exhaustion, I'm posting an open ended question, hoping to get in touch with someone from adobe to further discuss this issue.

I've been tasked with supporting a legacy application that uses Winforms to host an Acrobat 5 fillable form.  We have hundreds of pdf fillable forms with javascript logic, emphasis on *hundreds*, therefore we are heavily invested in Adobe.  (However, if we can not find a satisfactory solution to our issues we will be moving away from the Adobe platform).

The application basically presents the user with a fillable pdf, the user can fill out the pdf and save the results.  Very straight forward.

However, I'm finding it exceedingly difficult to upgrade and support our code to use the newer versions of Adobe and newer ways of saving the user choices.  We are tired of wasting hours and hours pouring through Adobe's voluminous documentation, that never really gets to the point nor provides answers to basic developers questions. 

By the way, the Adobe DC sdk is 99% worthless and is, by all definitions, a misnomer.  It is NOT an sdk of any kind and will leave the developer with more questions than answers.

[Karl Heinz Kremer]

A PDF form is not an "Acrobat 5 fillable form" or an "Acrobat DC fillable form" - it's a PDF form, and should work on any version of Adobe Acrobat (or the free Adobe Reader). What problems exactly are you running into with your form when you use it in Acrobat/Reader DC?

[bob3054983]

Hello Karl,

Here is some more information:

Platform:

1. Our platform's are the Microsoft Windows 7 and Windows 10 operating systems.

Overview of our app:

1. Our legacy winforms application allows our field agents to work in a disconnected mode, where they can download a fillable pdf form on a laptop, physically drive to a remote location, fill out the form and save it, return to the office and upload the values from the saved pdf form to a database, if the form data has been uploaded it can be downloaded and viewed in *read only* form.

Overall questions:

1. The Adobe DC sdk doesn't contain the all .dlls necessary for developing.  So that's the #1 issue.  Where can we get those?  (things like Interop.Acrobat.dll, Interop.AFORMAUTlib.dll, etc).  Supposedly the licensed Adobe DC Professional installs these, but we can't locate them. The sdk's don't even clearly document what .dll's are available, plus the discovery of the available capabilities and how to properly use them is virtually non-existent.  The sdk's should contain everything needed to get started and the current sdk's are crap. 

2. Once we get the proper .dlls, it's not clear what SDK will meet our needs.  Do we use the "Adobe Pdf Sdk" or the "Adobe Acrobat DC Sdk", or god knows, is there something else to research?  And, yes, we've poured over the comparison documents, but those documents don't clearly indicate which SDK allows the developer to get/set controls and handle the .pdf javacode errors.

3.  What we're trying to do is straight forward and not hard.  So why is it so complicated?

4. Our winforms application is 10 years out of date and needs to be replaced.  Our initial thinking is upgrading it to WPF.  It doesn't appear that the pdf .dlls play well inside of WPF.  Is this correct?  If not, can Adobe supply us with a WPF example? 

5. What is the easiest way to get/set fillable forms data?  Right now the app iterates over the control names and selectively get/set the values.  Is there an easier built-in way using xml data?  This seems like such a basic question, but we're not able to tease out the answer from the documentation.  BTW, let me reiterate the poor quality of documentation for developers.

6. What does Adobe recommend we do?  Is upgrading from Winforms to WPF the way to go?  Or should we go HTML5?  We know this question not straight forward. 

7. Our development computers upgraded to Adobe DC professional, but it looks like the visual studio 2012 setup programs, create on these upgraded pc's are producing setup files that break our legacy laptops (running Windows 7 and Acrobat 5).  We don't know what's causing this error:

Unable to case COM object of type 'System.__ComObject' to interface type 'Acrobat.CAcroApp'.  This operation failed because the QueryInterface call on the COM component for the interface IID '{...}' failed due to the following error: No such interface supported.

[Karl Heinz Kremer]

#1 The SDK is mostly a collection of documentation and examples. All the DLLs you need are distributed with Adobe Acrobat (or the free Reader for the limited amount you can do with Reader). There are no other DLLs, there are no redistributable DLLs that you would package with your code. You need to have Adobe Acrobat installed in order to use it via the methods documented in the SDK.

#2 The Acrobat SDK contains several different APIs. The most important ones are the plug-in API to develop Acrobat plug-ins in C++, the JavaScript API, and the IAC or Interapplication Communication API to automate Acrobat from e.g. a VB or C# application. You would also use IAC to display a PDF in your own application.

#3 There is a learning curve associated with the Acrobat SDK. It's not something you pick up on an afternoon or over a weekend. You need to be prepared to read a lot and analyze the samples that come with the SDK.

#4 Chances are that Adobe will not provide you with anything besides what is already in the SDK unless you are willing to pay for a support case.

#5 Iterating over all fields is what I would do. You can certainly use e.g. the Javascript API to write out an XML file. If you already know what fields are in a form, you don't have to iterate over the fields, you can just retrieve the information directly. See here for some sample code that shows how you would do this using IAC: Reading PDF Form Fields with VBA - KHKonsulting LLC​

#6 You are posting in a forum that mostly frequented by users of Adobe's technology, so this is not a method to get in touch with Adobe's support. Chances are that Adobe will not provide you with guidance in regards to how to design your system (unless you pay for a support case).

#7 We need a bit more information about what exactly it is you are trying to do. Please show some code or explain how your project is set up and what API(s) you are using. 

[bob3054983]

Thank you Karl,

We are making a little headway and we appreciate your patience and helpful attitude.

1.  We've installed Adobe DC Professional, so where are the .dlls?  For example: The Adobe DC sdk contains a very simple c# IAC example called "FillFormCS".  The project references " Interop.Acrobat.dll, Interop.AFORMAUTlib.dll".  This is all well and good.  Now, create a new project from scratch, and try adding those references.  There is no Adobe documentation, that we can find, on how to add the references.  We can probably assume it's a COM reference right?  Using Google Search turns up references to "Adobe Reader", however, "Adobe Reader" in NOT in our COM reference list (nothing in the Assemblies list either).  So we can't even get a project going from scratch.  We've tried referencing all of the Adobe COM's listed but nothing is producing a reference to Interop.Acrobat.dll.  We have Adobe DC Professional installed, we can create, edit, view our pdfs, so we're assuming the software is installed correctly.

2. We've looked at the other api's.  We're only interested in IAC c# api's.  Unless, of course, if Adobe recommends something else.

3. We've already read a lot and analyzed our brains out.  There are 4 IAC c# examples, that take collectively less than an hour to analyze.  Yes there are other examples (like VB, etc), however right now, we need help getting projects started from scratch.  As outlined in #1 above.

4.  Adobe has yet to answer this question:  Can we host a pdf in WPF using the provide API's?  If the answer is YES, then we would expect a simple "hello world" example and added to the SDK.  Why doesn't the SDK even mention WPF?  Who the hell knows and one reason we consider the SDK is crap.   Does the SDK even have a general discussion of the IAC api's?  Nope.  Does the SDK provide any development suggestions at all?  Nope.  Does the SDK provide any guidance, as to where the technology of fillable forms is going?  Nope.  Adobe has fallen flat on it's collective face and is stuck in the mud.  Maybe they can no longer can be looked to as the industry leader on pdf's technology...

5. Thank you for confirming this.  We asked this question because, while we scoured the documentation, we ran across some references to an easier way to get/set data using xml data.  Since we couldn't find an example of this, we can only guess about it (maybe the control name and value are in the xml, with API methods called something like .LoadDataViaXml, .GetXmlData, or something else).  Doesn't sound like this rings a bell for you... so...we're probably confused.

6.  You make a great point, however, we expect Adobe, that initially talked us into using their technology all those years ago, to provide *some* guidance, point us in the right direction or at least confirm our worst nightmares.  Adobe owes us that much, for sure.  We represent a VERY large Adobe account and because this has been an issue for 10+ years now, the time has come for a solution.  Our product is stuck at Adobe 5 on Windows 7 because every time we try to upgrade Adobe, Adobe breaks and doesn't work (see #7 below for example).  If we fail to find a solution, they will rip Adobe out and find something else, rumor has it that Microsoft Word API can do what we need it to and is working on adding features to their api. Worst case, we'll just write our own and throw both products out the door.

7. The error was shown (in the above posting) and here's the code that produces the error:

private Acrobat.CAcroApp avapp;

avapp = (Acrobat.CAcroApp)Activator.CreateInstance(System.Type.GetTypeFromProgID("AcroExch.App"));

[lrosenth]

Dennis – if you are indeed a large account, then please have your contract support person contact Adobe directly via the already setup channels.

You may also want to consider hiring a consultant who is deeply familiar with PDF forms and the SDK to help you through all these details.

You are correct that Adobe has not invested in our developer ecosystem for Acrobat in quite some time. It’s something we hope to improve on in the future…

[bob3054983]

Irosenth,

Thank you for the response and it has been noted. 

One point of feedback is this:  If Adobe is officially recommending to hire a consultant for these issues, especially the incredibly simple ones raised on this thread, that itself is a red flag and a problem going forward.  We need not remind Adobe of their historical relationship to .pdf's, but it surely appears Adobe has lost contact with it's roots and may no longer be the premier .pdf authority it once commanded.

Pdf's have become in integral part of our digital lives, however, the most simple aspect and usability of pdf's has gotten lost in the forest.

P.S. If there's anyway to get one question successfully answered it would be this thread:

where are the .dlls to make the SDK examples work?

[lrosenth]

Commitment to PDF, Acrobat and our users is not at issue or question here…

What you are asking for – and I have clearly noted is a failing of ours – is support of developers and our SDKs.

[bob3054983]

We do appreciate the dialog, but we also want to give you proper and hopefully, constructive feedback.  A good dose of reality is in order.

We're not convinced there is a proper commitment to Acrobat.  For example, we've just installed Acrobat DC Professional.  Have you ever had to create and maintain a pdf that has controls and javascript?   We have, because we maintain hundreds of pdfs and no one here uses Acrobat DC Professional to craft a pdf.  We use Microsoft Word and then create the pdf from that, then our developers slide in and add the controls and javascript, which I can personally testify to, is a royal pain.  Acrobat DC Professional is crap for anything but the most simplistic pdfs.  To easily prove our assertion, one only needs to create a fillable pdf form with say, 50 controls and enough javascript to validate and make the fillable form experience pleasant.  We can say, through years of frustrating experience, that you won't ever want to create a 2nd pdf using Acrobat DC Professional. 

To reiterate our sincere feedback is not meant to anger anyone, but to serve as a well needed gut check.  If our feedback can, in anyway, help to improve the products we use every single day, then it should be worth it.   And we didn't even charge you a consulting fee for this.

[Michael Peters]

I think in terms of the forms technology there is definitely an issue in supporting mobile devices. It simply isn't possible to take a form that contains even a limited amount of logic (for example showing of hiding a field based on user input) and having it running on iOS or Android. There are very large sectors of industry that require this such as Insurance. This has nothing to do with SDKs but a lot more to do with the portability of PDF files and the support that Adobe is providing in the products.

[Test Screen Name]

Not much has changed in Acrobat If you are using IAC. little has changed incompatible in JavaScript for security issues and the loss of ADBC. Not much has changed in Reader either, it still offers no useful API. Can you be specific about some issues?

[Test Screen Name]

Never seen them but I believe interop files are automatically generated by .net developer tools from supplied DLLs. consult .net documentation,  nothing specific to the acrobat SDK.

[bob3054983]

Test Screen Name: I created a separate posting to address this exact issue: 

where are the .dlls to make the SDK examples work?

[Michael Peters]

You will need to regenerate the interop references for the examples in visual studio.

[Michael Peters]

What you need is a developer with experience in all of this. It really sounds as if you don't have this. If you want to contact me at mpeters@mapsoft.com then I can help guide you through this. I have been using the Acrobat SDK for about 20 years. I would say though if you want to create PDF forms with any complexity that you want to use in anything other than a PC or Mac environment then find some other technology because the support in the mobile products is so poor for the underlying JavaScript.

On another note I completely understand your frustrations with developer support at Adobe and I have learnt over the years to just do without it and make my own way in the world. Leornard Rosenthal who has been answering you really knows his stuff, but unfortunately he is not the person who you would be interacting with at Adobe technical support. You should be aware also that Adobe mysteriously have moved their developer resources to another domain Adobe.io (a British Indian Ocean Territory domain - no idea why) and there is the original developer domain adobe.com/devnet.

[bob3054983]

Michael,  Thank you for your help, i will definitely check out those other sites.

Also, thank you for the offer of help, but we're not authorized to spend any money on consultants.  We're very close to junking Adobe products anyways and I'm the new guy, that wanted to give Adobe one last go at it.  I'm taking a lot of heat for my decision, and Adobe is starting to convince me that they have become dated, obsolete and lost (with regards to pdf and eforms).  There's probably not enough money to be made for Adobe to do anything.  Plus, we have a whole other team evaluating 20+ other solutions.  We have until the end of the year to make up our collective minds.

[bob3054983]

Michael,

Would you know how to fix this?  This code used to work just fine... but now we're getting this error and don't know why.

This line of code

avapp = (Acrobat.CAcroApp)Activator.CreateInstance(System.Type.GetTypeFromProgID("AcroExch.App"));

Produces this error:

[Michael Peters · Accepted solution]

Is this the same machine with the dual Acrobat 5 and Acrobat DC installation? If so, have you tried removing the Acrobat 5? I personally would remove both and then reinstall Acrobat DC.

I presume that your application is also 32 bit as even Acrobat DC is still 32 bit?

[bob3054983]

Michael, Thank you.

The problem was solved by having only one version of Adobe installed. 

In our case we did the follow:

1. removed all adobe products 🙂

2. because adobe uninstall is crap, leaving artifacts all over the place, we had to clean that up

3. re-installed Acrobat 5

4. com error fixed

[bob3054983]

Hi Michael, thank you for your time and help.

The problem we have is this:  Our customers use a Winform app to select a pdf, which is opened and they fill out, then hit "save" or "cancel".  If they hit save, the values of the pdf controls are saved in a database.  When the customer re-opens that saved pdf, the pdf controls are pre-populated with the saved data.

We've been stuck using Acrobat 5 for 10+ years now because... if we upgrade to Adobe DC, our customers will have to purchase additional Adobe products in order to use our software.  Adobe essentially has torpedoed our business model.  They talked us into using their product 10+ years ago and we're heavily invested in pdf technology, maintaining hundreds of pdf's.  Now we are starting to realize that our relationship with Adobe will, most likely, need to move on. 

If anyone knows of good pdf related API's, please let us know. 

[lrosenth]

Absolutely nothing changed in the business model.

Acrobat 5.0 was a commercial, paid for, product. Absolutely no different than Acrobat Pro DC is today. So the product you developed then required your customers to purchase products from Adobe to support your products. You got paid (and I assume continue to be paid) for your work, but those people haven’t updated their Acrobat’s since. Given that Acrobat 5 is 18 years old at this point – I think it’s reasonable for them to update…You probably even have customers that are younger than Acrobat 5 is…

[Michael Peters]

I understand your underlying logic about using a payed for product rather than free products such as the Reader. However, I think it is unfair to say that nothing has changed in the business model for the majority of Adobe products. Purchasing products on subscription is a huge change.

[bob3054983]

Hello Michael,  Thank you for the feedback.

I originally wrote a nice response, but deleted it in favor of this one.  I just hope Adobe continues to improve our digital lives.  My opinion is that, currently, the pdf SDK, the Acrobat Pro DC, and how to post help to their Acrobat forums needs attention.  With regard to the SDK and API's, they need to start from scratch and redo everything, especially the IAC related code.  With regard to Pro DC, it's crap and they shouldn't be charging money for it.  Adobe would be well served to give away Pro DC for free with a big "user feedback button" that users could click and send Adobe direct feedback. 

As for me, my job is done here and I'm out.  Cheers and good luck!

[Michael Peters]

The nice response would have been the better choice. I agree that they need attention and it is about time that Adobe started to put in the necessary investment as Leonard (lrosenth) has already admitted. However, as for your comment that they should be starting from scratch, I totally disagree. I have used the SDK for multiple projects ever since Acrobat was released. PDF and Acrobat changed the world when it came to digital documents. How anyone can refer to Acrobat as "crap" is quite beyond me. My career and day to day work would not have happened without Acrobat. I suggest that you are out of your depth and the fact that you won't employ the necessary specialists is your real problem. The software development world is complex now and you can't expect to be a specialist in everything. The PDF world is particularly complex. I think that you are disappointed that you have found out that to upgrade to Acrobat DC is going to cost money and you hadn't factored this into your plans. This is not Adobes fault and is entirely down to a lack of knowledge concerning their product line.

[bob3054983]

Michael, I'm not sure why you made this personal.  Your response is condescending, snooty, argumentative, and unhelpful.  By your own admission, your whole career revolves around Acrobat and therefore supports, by empirical data, my assertion, that Adobe (and you) can not see the forest through the trees.

"I do desire we may be better strangers."

• Shakespeare