Inspiring

Answered

New HDR Panorama feature

Forum|Forum|7 years ago
October 17, 2018
8 replies
4948 views

I haven't been able to make this work... yet!

I produce lots of 3 image panoramas from images produces from 24mm TSE II lens (Three shifts of the lens which normally merge perfectly with "merge to panorama")

Many images I shoot would be vertical shifts of architectural interiors, and a bracketed HDR Panorama would be great.

I haven't been able to make this work with any existing images - I get this message... "Unable to detect HDR exposure bracket size. Merge to non-HDR panorama instead?"

All I can think of is that the method I use for bracketing isn't correct for this feature... I normally make 3 same exposures (shift up, middle, down) then change exposure and do same again.

In the Adobe instructional video <Merge to HDR Panorama in Adobe Camera Raw - YouTube> I can see that each image has been bracketed before moving on to the next shift... is this the secret?

BTW I reordered and re numbered images so that they appear to be sequentially bracketed - that didn't work either - perhaps a slight pixel mis-match is the problem???

I am about to do an interiors job today and will try bracketing as per video... but would like a comment from someone in Adobe who might know?

Peter

hdr panorama

This topic has been closed for replies.

Correct answer gary_sc

Hi P Moloney & James,

When I say two stops apart, I mean from each shot to the next. That is -2, 0 +2. A total of four stops. Unfortunately while LR and ACR can create an HDR from lower stops, it does balk on HDR-Panos where the stops are less than 2 stops between shots.

Yeah, strange, but that's the way it works (and doesn't work).

Here's the deal: I've been doing HDR for about 12 years and I've made all of the mistakes that just about anyone can make. With that in mind, one of the things that I've always strived for was creating the view so that it looked like what your eye saw, not the limitations of the camera, nor the harsh over-saturated view that was so common some 12 years ago. I look at those and it makes my teeth hurt.

Here's an extra tip: if you are talking jpg images, you do need -2, 0, +2. But, if you are taking raw images, than all you really need is -2, +2. That's it.

and here's a bit of extra information: bunches of years ago I did a test: I took the following stops: -2, -1.5, -1, -.5, 0, +.5, +1, +1.5, +2 and I ran them together in three different ways:

-2, -1.5, -1, -.5, 0, +.5, +1, +1.5, +2

-2, -1, 0, +1, +2

-2, 0, +2

I had the EXACT same settings for each test. At the end there was no discernible difference between any of the settings. Why is this so? It's simple really, Think about a pano. When you shoot a pano with a 50mm lens (think of that 50mm lens as a jpg image), you may need three shots to cover the full range of the image including 1/4 overlap of the image. You could have 1/2 or even 3/4 overlap but it would make NO DIFFERENCE to the final panoramic image. If now you take a 25mm lens (think of this as a raw image), you will probably only need two images to capture the same panoramic image because it's capturing a wider amount of the view. This is just as a raw image captures a greater range of the image's view because most raw images are anywhere from 12-14 bit image as opposed to jpeg's 8 bit image limitation.

Let me know if this makes sense or not and if this helps you solve the problems you've had.

R

Rod Pickett Photography

Known Participant

I have been experiencing the same problem. I'm pretty sure I know what is happening.

Photo Merge -> HDR Panorama does not recognize stacks!

Photo Merge -> HDR does recognize stacks. But if I try to use collapsed stacks, HDR Panorama only selects the top image in each stack.

If I expand the stacks and select each image, HDR Panorama works.

This is clearly a bug.

Rod

Chuck Uebele

Community Expert

Just got word that the logic behind determining the exposures has been fixed. Hopefully it will be out in the next release of ACR.

D

DaveMascall

Participating Frequently

Hi Chuck

Thanks for info, looking forward to it being available.

Any timeframe ?

Cheers

DaveM

Chuck Uebele

Community Expert

No idea when. However updates to ACR come out fairly often due to all the new cameras that need to be incorporated so that PS can read the files.

Chuck Uebele

Community Expert

I did find out that the 2 stop difference was not intentional, and might be a bug. You should be able to do the HDR pano with less of a spread. What is critical is that the spread be exactly the same, so using auto bracketing should help eliminate any variance.

D

DaveMascall

Participating Frequently

Hi Chuck

I think the testing I did yesterday has covered the "spread myth". I can merge 3 sets at +/-1 and two sets at +/- 0.3. Therefore I don't think trying to merge to HDR Panorama with images taken with AEB less than +/- 2 is the issue that causes the "Unable to detect..." message. But I could be wrong :-( Or are you saying that it is "guarenteed" to work at +/- 2 and above, but the code is "buggy" with less than +/- 2 ? In which case I refer you back to my first post on 24th Oct where I was having problems with images taken using AEB +/- 2.

To be clear ALL the testing I did yesterday (and in fact with any HDR sets I take out in the field) are with AEB set - its the right tool for the job, besides which trying to do it manually is just too messy in my opinion.

And yes, I agree using AEB should help eliminate any variance.

So.... be a hero and explain why the following three sets won't merge :-)

All taken with constant ISO 100 and constant F4, the only thing changing is the shutter speed via AEB

Set 1 - normal 1/80th, dark 1/100th, light 1/60th

Set 2 - normal 1/80th, dark 1/100th, light 1/60th

Set 3 - normal 1/80th, dark 1/100th, light 1/60th

There does not appear to be much(!) variance there. And yet selecting all 9 shots will get thrown out by ACR with the "Unable to detect HDR bracket size" message.

And yet selecting any two of the three sets will allow ACR to detect the bracket size and start creating the HDR pano - thats just plain nuts.

Logic says ACR is looking at the EXIF data (ISO, Aperture, Shutter speed) to determine the bracket size and if all are constant then proceed .... and yet...

Further logic says if it borks on three identical sets, then it can't be using (just?) EXIF data. So if its not using EXIF, what else is it using to determine bracket size ?

Just trying to figure out what the ACR code logic is here that causes the problem, because once you understand what causes the problem when the three sets are identical, it allows you to figure out what to do when taking HDR panos out in the field with the knowledge that ACR will ALWAYS process them without throwing out the "Unable to detect..." message.

Cheers

DaveM

Chuck Uebele

Community Expert

I'm not sure why it doesn't work well when manually set. Perhaps something in the metadata when using auto bracketing. As far as the spread, I just heard that the spread isn't suppose to matter, but for some people it does. I believe Adobe is looking into this. It shouldn't be limited to 2 stops and above.

D

DaveMascall

Participating Frequently

I have the same issue in Lightroom cc classic trying to Photo Merge to create an HDR panorama.

I have 12 canon raw images taken with a 30D. I used AEB to take 4 sets of 3 images with 2 stops between each image. I was in Aperture priority mode - so ISO 100 and aperture f8 remain constant - and the only variable was shutter speed. I have named the files 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 2.1, 2.2 etc where x.1 is the darkest image, x.2 is the normal image and x.3 is the lightest image for each set.

I cannot create an HDR panorama with all 4 sets.

I can create an HDR panorama with the first 3 sets.

I can also create an HDR panorama with sets 3 and 4 ! (and sets 2 & 3 but NOT 2, 3 & 4)

I have checked the shutter speeds of each image within each set and they are definitely 2 stops apart.

However, because aperture priority was used the shutter speeds used for each set varies. For the darkest images the shutter speeds the camera selected were

1.1 1/1000th

2.1 1/1600th

3.1 1/1000th

4.1 1/800th

So I would take a (wild) guess that Adobe are not only checking the stops between images in a set, they are also checking the stops between sets, with some degree of acceptance, which will allow the sets 1, 2 and 3 to be merged and sets 3 & 4 to be merged, but will not allow selections which include sets 2 & 4 because 1/1600 to 1/800 is deemed to great a spread ?

On the other hand I could be talking a load of nonsense :-)

Would be interested if any body else using Aperture priority (or I guess Shutter priority) has had the same issue.

Would be even more interesting if anybody shooting with manual mode (so all image sets will see the same set of shutter speeds) has been unable to create an HDR Panorama using this photo merge feature.

Thanks

DaveM

P

P MoloneyAuthor

Inspiring

Hi Dave,

I'm just working on a job I shot earlier today...

Two of the images are HDR Panoramas, I shot these using AEB on manual with a 5DsR

3 exposure only -2 0 +2 (this seems to be the only way I can make this work - but it does work)

As it happens the exposures were 0.8sec 1/5 and 1/20

I really don't know how ACR knows what exposure is used other than metadata / exif, but unless you have a two stop gap it won't work!

Thats as much as I know - thanks to gary_sc!!!

Peter

gary_sc

Community Expert

Hi Peter

Well having done a lot of test shots today, all I can say is that whatever the problem is, its mental :-)

As a headline - with the 30D I can merge HDR Panorama with shots taken down to +/- 1 AEB with no issues, but below that it gets problematic.

If anybody out there is interested -

Canon 30D in manual mode, with manual focus on a 24-105 L set at 24mm and stabiliser off, ISO set at 100 for all shots, f4 set for all shots. 3 shots (normal, dark, light) taken for each set using AEB and 3 sets used to merge (9 shots in total for each HDR Panorama) - using Bridge to take each group of 9 shots into ACR from where select merge to HDR Panorama. All shots RAW and yes I have tried converting some to DNG - it makes no difference.

For AEB set to plus +/- 2, +/- 1.6, +/- 1.3 and +/- 1 there is no problem with the merge.

However for AEB set to +/- 0.6 and +/- 0.3 trying to merge the 9 shots results in ACR throwing out the "Unable to detect HDR exposure bracket size...." message. This is despite each set of 3 images having exactly the same shutter speeds - normal shot 1/80th, dark shot 1/100th, light shot 1/60th for +/- 0.3 and normal shot 1/80th, dark shot 1/125th, light shot 1/50th for +/- 0.6.

What is even more strange is that for AEB +/- 0.3 and AEB +/- 0.6 the merge to HDR Panorama is happy to merge just set 1 & 2, its happy to merge set 2 & 3, its even happy with set 1 & 3 ! - but you can't merge all 3 sets. Very annoying.....

So given the above (plus the fact that googling around I can find no documented restriction) that there is no minimum AEB in practice - with just two sets it will merge to HDR Panorama with AEB +/- 0.3. Its when the number of sets is more than 2 that ACR starts to exhibit strange behaviour, particularly if the AEB is quite low ?

I also did some sets where the AEB between shots in a set is constant at +/- 2, but varied the exposure of each set so that for instance the normal shot is 1/100th for the first set, 1/50th for the second set and 1/25th for the third set - so a 1 stop change between sets. ACR accepted them for merge to HDR Panorama with no issue - although the change was always in the same direction. Will try some more tests tomorrow fluctuating the change between sets more randomly - which more closely mirrors my 4 set pano mentioned in my original post.

Don't know if the ACPs (Gary and Chuck) are still looking at this - some words of wisdom are needed (perhaps from the ACR developers?)

Cheers

DaveM

P.S. I have also found out after standing outside in the cold to take a lot of shots, that for the purposes of testing the bracketing detection you can just take 3 sets of 3 shots of a blank wall indoors (don't even both to move the camera) with AEB set and it will produce exactly the same outcomes when trying to merge to HDR Panorama. Passes "HDR exposure detection" test at +/- 1 and above, but stinks with AEB +/- 0.3 and 0.6. Obviously the process chokes further down the line because it can't find any points to line the shots up, but hey ho, it beats standing around in the cold :-)

HI Dave,

Yes I have been watching this thread but I've been in the middle of several projects that are sucking the life out of me. So give me a bit longer and I can get back to this thread.

But one quick question: you state: "For AEB set to plus +/- 2, +/- 1.6, +/- 1.3 and +/- 1 there is no problem with the merge"

I'm not all that sure I understand why you are dealing with 1.6 or 1.3 at all. In general, if you are using 3 shots, all you need are -2, 0, and +2. For ACR all you need is -2 & +2. However, it can be good to keep all three if you need to move over to other software products (such as Photomatix) that do need all three. There are times when I've been in dark churches and I need 4 shots but with the 7Dm2 and the AEB I can take 2, 3, 5, or 7 shots. So I take 5 (or 7) and just toss the images that are too bright or too dark (depending on the scene). It's much faster and easier to do that than switch to Manual mode.

FWIW, my previous camera was the 30D so I know it VERY well. Several years ago I moved up to the 7Dm2. (Not a subtle change, that was a major change.)

Sorry, gotta go.

Randy Hufford

Community Expert

Are you using a tripod head to allow for

What is the No Parallex Point?

What is the No Parallex Point? - YouTube

I use a Nodal Ninja Head holding camera in a vertical position using this feature. These images have to many close and far away points for each image to line up. Whats video to understand.

Chuck Uebele

Community Expert

It's odd what going on here. I've had some issue with the feature, but it was more due to the number of different views. It stitched a normal pano with the large number, but not with the HDR combined. Gary thinks I had too much overlap, which might have been the case. Will have to try more, but the feature does seem very finicky right now. Hopefully it can be improved.

Just out of curiosity, do you have another camera that you could try it on? just wondering if it might be something with that particular Canon's metadata.

P

P MoloneyAuthor

Inspiring

So... another job today!

Today I bracketed in stops (-1 0 +1) That's two stops between lightest & darkest!

Didn't work.... "Error unable to merge selected images"

Tried with various number of brackets... Didn't work

And.. Just in case there is any doubt about the merging side of things there is a screen shot of a fully merged but not bracketed shot!

Come on Adobe please explain how this should work - and why it doesn't for me?

gary_sc

Correct answer

Community Expert

Hi P Moloney & James,

When I say two stops apart, I mean from each shot to the next. That is -2, 0 +2. A total of four stops. Unfortunately while LR and ACR can create an HDR from lower stops, it does balk on HDR-Panos where the stops are less than 2 stops between shots.

Yeah, strange, but that's the way it works (and doesn't work).

Here's the deal: I've been doing HDR for about 12 years and I've made all of the mistakes that just about anyone can make. With that in mind, one of the things that I've always strived for was creating the view so that it looked like what your eye saw, not the limitations of the camera, nor the harsh over-saturated view that was so common some 12 years ago. I look at those and it makes my teeth hurt.

Here's an extra tip: if you are talking jpg images, you do need -2, 0, +2. But, if you are taking raw images, than all you really need is -2, +2. That's it.

and here's a bit of extra information: bunches of years ago I did a test: I took the following stops: -2, -1.5, -1, -.5, 0, +.5, +1, +1.5, +2 and I ran them together in three different ways:

-2, -1.5, -1, -.5, 0, +.5, +1, +1.5, +2

-2, -1, 0, +1, +2

-2, 0, +2

I had the EXACT same settings for each test. At the end there was no discernible difference between any of the settings. Why is this so? It's simple really, Think about a pano. When you shoot a pano with a 50mm lens (think of that 50mm lens as a jpg image), you may need three shots to cover the full range of the image including 1/4 overlap of the image. You could have 1/2 or even 3/4 overlap but it would make NO DIFFERENCE to the final panoramic image. If now you take a 25mm lens (think of this as a raw image), you will probably only need two images to capture the same panoramic image because it's capturing a wider amount of the view. This is just as a raw image captures a greater range of the image's view because most raw images are anywhere from 12-14 bit image as opposed to jpeg's 8 bit image limitation.

Let me know if this makes sense or not and if this helps you solve the problems you've had.

P

P MoloneyAuthor

Inspiring

Hi Gary,

Thanks for this - a great deal of information here. I will indeed try the +2 0 -2 option tomorrow along with a trial of +2 -2 and I'll report back.

I note that none of the information you have supplied seems to be available anywhere else.

Until tomorrow!

Peter

gary_sc

Community Expert

Yes, it is MUCH MUCH better to take your three shot then move- repeat.

Also, be sure each shot is two stops between shots.

Let it us know if this works

jamesl29291690

Participant

It didn't for me. I am getting the same message. I was taking each shot with a 3 frame 2 stop bracket. If I just to a regular HDR with one bracketed image, no problem, but as soon as I add a second bracketed image, it's a no go. Too bad, I was looking forward to trying this new feature.

gary_sc

Community Expert

Hi James,

just out out of curiosity, what is your process?

You state that you take three shots for each image at two stops each but when you do your panorama actions, how much overlap do you maintain? I try for about 1/3 - 1/4 of each image overlaps the previous image. Also, if you‘re doing a beach area over looking water it’s almost impossible for any application to stitch things together when there’s nothing to link the images together.

Dies this help?

What is the No Parallex Point?

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