Participating Frequently

Question

When is a RAW file no longer RAW?

Forum|Forum|4 years ago
February 10, 2022
3 replies
1684 views

Greetings, I'm hoping I can put out a RAW file forest fire here and start a good discussion. I enter a photographic 'print' competition with a PPA affiliate. It's a digital submission nowadays but is still called print competition. There is a new RAW category. The powers that be are saying the file is no longer RAW if it was imported into Lightroom. I disagree. I'm seeing no sidecars or any evidence that the actual image was changed even if I name them as I bring them in. So, who is right. If no changes or adjustments were made except naming it, is it still a RAW image or not? Go ahead, hit me, I can take it.
I had to remove one of mine because LR touched it.

This topic has been closed for replies.

Conrad_C

Community Expert

Everything seems to hinge on what software they are going to use to view these “raw” photos for their competition. By picking any application, they are picking a specific raw processing engine with a specific look. A different application would produce a different default rendering. Are they going to view them in RawDigger? Or are they going to judge based on the camera-generated JPEG preview of the raw file?

A raw file is like undeveloped photographic negative film. It is capable of a wide range of potential appearances, depending on the choices made during development and then printing. I’m really curious how they are going to judge raw files. It would be like asking Ansel Adams to submit his undeveloped film for a competition…he would have to decline, because so much of his distinguishing expertise and style was in the technical choices he made during development and printing. Take that away and it isn’t a complete Ansel Adams. With raw, take away the raw processing application and all you have is a pile of raw data run through some defaults.

Is the contest information online for us to check out?

D Fosse

Community Expert

Conrad is spot on: it's a totally meaningless requirement. Just looking at a raw file means it's already processed - but using (random) default parameters set by whatever (random) application is used.

It's tempting to think that they don't understand what they're asking.

elie_dinur

Participating Frequently

Maybe they are judging the most beautiful Raw Digger histogram.

"...we've lost touch with the capture itself. Both categories demonstrate an in-camera capability that was ignored over the last several years."

The Raw capture might be spiritually fulfilling, creatively insightful and exhibit faultless technical expertise - it is still worthless without the second half.

Rob_Cullen

Community Expert

is it still a RAW image or not?

If you provide the 'Original' 'Out-of-camera' proprietary RAW file, then Yes! (Whether it has been imported by Lightoom, or not.)

If they want an edited version, suitable to print (in JPG, TIF format), then someone, somewhere, has to render the RAW into an RGB (bitmap) format. (And that could be with any software- Lightroom, Photoshop, etc.)

Regards. My System: Windows-11, Lightroom-Classic 15.1.1, Photoshop 27.3.1, ACR 18.1.1, Lightroom 9.0, Lr-iOS 10.4.0, Bridge 16.0.2 .

slrimageryAuthor

Participating Frequently

Thanks, Bob. They want a native RAW file for a RAW category. Just for the hell of it, I checked the image with "Get Info." 6 months after capture, I did change the name to the left of the extension to the title I was using for it. The creation date and the modified date remained the same which means nothing changed in the image. I couldn't upload here because it's too large coming out of the R5. Does Adobe have anything out here in cyberland that speaks to this particular topic?

slrimageryAuthor

Participating Frequently

This makes no sense as the RAW processor HAS TO apply edits (demosaicing, rendering to a color profile) just to view the image.

By @Lumigraphics

Yes it makes no sence.

No, one can view a raw non demosic raw if you have the right software:

The images being judged are being handled by the folks at printcompetition.com. The judges will each be on high resolution monitors set to PPA standards. I'm not a techie but will try to find out what the specs are, for those of you who are interested.
There is a reason RAW and Reportage´ have been added to the list of categories. Some folks are feeling so much more is being done by the software, Photoshop/Lightroom et. al. that we've lost touch with the capture itself. Both categories demonstrate an in-camera capability that was ignored over the last several years.
I've attached a .jpg image here of one of my RAW files, just for your entertainment. Nothing was done to it. It was just exported out of LR as a .jpg with no adjustments. My RAW's in this series are too large to upload here. I'm told a .jpg can be pulled from the RAW image - perhaps the same one we see on the camera's LCD at capture.
My initial question has been answered to my satisfaction. Importing RAW files using LR does not change the file itself. Neither does naming them on import. As long as the extension stays the same there is no change.
I tried something. Tell me if I'm nuts. I highlighted one of these files and changed the name to the left of the extension. Then I did a "Get Info" on the file to see it the capture date and modified date remained the same. They did as you can see.

TheDigitalDog

Inspiring

In all Adobe raw converters, raw is read only.

Edits are instructions to render the image. That is not raw data. But render you must or the raw, which few applications actually show is rather ugly!

This, from RawDigger is an example:

http://www.digitaldog.net/files/ThisIsRaw.jpg

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

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