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slrimagery
slrimagery
Participating Frequently
February 10, 2022
Question

When is a RAW file no longer RAW?

  • February 10, 2022
  • 3 replies
  • 1684 views

Greetings, I'm hoping I can put out a RAW file forest fire here and start a good discussion.  I enter a photographic 'print' competition with a PPA affiliate.  It's a digital submission nowadays but is still called print competition.  There is a new RAW category.  The powers that be are saying the file is no longer RAW if it was imported into Lightroom.   I disagree.  I'm seeing no sidecars or any evidence that the actual image was changed even if I name them as I bring them in.   So, who is right.  If no changes or adjustments were made except naming it, is it still a RAW image or not?    Go ahead, hit me, I can take it.  
I had to remove one of mine because LR touched it.  

 

 

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3 replies

Conrad_C
Community Expert
Conrad_CCommunity Expert
Community Expert
February 11, 2022

Everything seems to hinge on what software they are going to use to view these “raw” photos for their competition. By picking any application, they are picking a specific raw processing engine with a specific look. A different application would produce a different default rendering. Are they going to view them in RawDigger? Or are they going to judge based on the camera-generated JPEG preview of the raw file?

 

A raw file is like undeveloped photographic negative film. It is capable of a wide range of potential appearances, depending on the choices made during development and then printing. I’m really curious how they are going to judge raw files. It would be like asking Ansel Adams to submit his undeveloped film for a competition…he would have to decline, because so much of his distinguishing expertise and style was in the technical choices he made during development and printing. Take that away and it isn’t a complete Ansel Adams. With raw, take away the raw processing application and all you have is a pile of raw data run through some defaults.

 

Is the contest information online for us to check out?

    D Fosse
    Community Expert
    D FosseCommunity Expert
    Community Expert
    February 11, 2022

    Conrad is spot on: it's a totally meaningless requirement. Just looking at a raw file means it's already processed - but using (random) default parameters set by whatever (random) application is used.

     

    It's tempting to think that they don't understand what they're asking.

     

     

     

     

      elie_dinur
      elie_dinur
      Participating Frequently
      February 11, 2022

      Maybe they are judging the most beautiful Raw Digger histogram.

       

      "...we've lost touch with the capture itself. Both categories demonstrate an in-camera capability that was ignored over the last several years."

      The Raw capture might be spiritually fulfilling, creatively insightful  and exhibit faultless technical expertise - it is still worthless without the second half.

        Rob_Cullen
        Community Expert
        Rob_CullenCommunity Expert
        Community Expert
        February 10, 2022

        is it still a RAW image or not?

        If you provide the 'Original' 'Out-of-camera' proprietary RAW file, then Yes! (Whether it has been imported by Lightoom, or not.)

         

        If they want an edited version, suitable to print (in JPG, TIF format), then someone, somewhere, has to render the RAW into an RGB (bitmap) format. (And that could be with any software- Lightroom, Photoshop, etc.)

         

         

        Regards. My System: Windows-11, Lightroom-Classic 15.1.1, Photoshop 27.3.1, ACR 18.1.1, Lightroom 9.0, Lr-iOS 10.4.0, Bridge 16.0.2 .
          slrimagery
          slrimageryAuthor
          Participating Frequently
          February 10, 2022

          Thanks, Bob.  They want a native RAW file for a RAW category.  Just for the hell of it, I checked the image with "Get Info."  6 months after capture, I did change the name to the left of the extension to the title I was using for it.  The creation date and the modified date remained the same which means nothing changed in the image.    I couldn't upload here because it's too large coming out of the R5.  Does Adobe have anything out here in cyberland that speaks to this particular topic?  

          L
          Lumigraphics
          Legend
          February 13, 2022

           

          @slrimagery wrote:

          My initial question has been answered to my satisfaction.  Importing RAW files using LR does not change the file itself.  Neither does naming them on import.  As long as the extension stays the same there is no change.   
          I tried something.  Tell me if I'm nuts.  I highlighted one of these files and changed the name to the left of the extension.  Then I did a "Get Info" on the file to see it the capture date and modified date remained the same. They did as you can see.

           

          Watch out here: When you imported the raw file into Lightroom Classic, sure, the file itself did not change, but what the competition is complaining about is that the appearance in Lightroom Classic is now different than the in-camera JPEG preview of the raw file, because like any raw processor, Lightroom Classic renders it differently. If it was to be exported, it would be the Lightroom Classic rendering.

           

          You do not see this in your file size measurements, because the changes happen in the Lightroom Classic catalog and preview files. If you measured the change in the file sizes of those files after import, then you would measure the change you were looking for. That’s how nondestructive editing works: The changes are not in the raw file itself, but in the data stored by the application that processes it, and in the preview generated from that render data.

           

          The competition is not against Lightroom Classic specifically, they are against the default renderings of any raw processor which are essentially all different from the camera. But to reach their goal of showing skill in in-camera capture, they should probably be avoiding raw completely, and requiring out-of-camera JPEG instead.


          Out of camera JPEG is meaningless too. Any camera today has multiple JPEG presets which can change color balance, sharpness, contrast, and highlight recovery. I shoot with Canon and can specify Adobe RGB or sRGB in camera as well. Fuji is well known for film simulation modes. Even if you had cameras set to "neutral", what about white balance? Two cameras from different manufacturers will have different out of the box JPEG rendering, that simple.

          A few minutes of dpreview spent looking at camera reviews and sample JPEGs will demonstrate that. They have standard test scenes that look different for different cameras.

            TheDigitalDog
            TheDigitalDog
            Inspiring
            February 10, 2022

            In all Adobe raw converters, raw is read only.

            Edits are instructions to render the image. That is not raw data. But render you must or the raw, which few applications actually show is rather ugly! 

            This, from RawDigger is an example:

            http://www.digitaldog.net/files/ThisIsRaw.jpg

             

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