advantages and disadvantages of ColdFusion?

[Guest]

Hi All,

I need to make a decision on which scripting language or languages will be "officially" adopted by my design studio for producing web applications - both for internal use and for client projects. We're a small studio so we can't do the whole range of CF, PHP, ASP.NET, RUBY, JSP etc, etc in-house. I'm a designer, not a programmer, so not really experienced in any of these.

I'm attracted to CF by the apparent shallow learning curve, interation with other Adobe products (Flash etc), apparent ease of communication with a wide range of databases, and finally the perceived value of the product to clients. Don't get me wrong, I love Open Source and many of it's projects, it's just that I wonder if corporates think OpenSource=free=cheap=low quality. In spite of this, if the studio doesn't adopt CF I think we'll probably settle on PHP because of the resources, hosting options and number of programmers available.

Does anyone know of any honest, unbiased reports on the pros and cons of ColdFusion, compared to PHP or other programming languages? I've done some online searches but all the info that I've found appears biased because it's been written by "evangelists" in one camp or another (particularly PHP because there are so many programmers out there and ASP.NET because there are so many companies with a commercial interest in Microsoft products). Ideally the report would cover areas like application development time, total cost of ownership, availability of 3rd party hosting, scalability, reliability, security, hardware requirements, database connectivity, compatibility with other languages.

Can anyone point me in the direction of such an article or report? I just want to base my decision on reliable information. Thanks in advance for your help!

Martin

[Newsgroup_User]

> SELECT * FROM andy WHERE clue > 0

So, select everything I have to say where it is clear I have a clue. Well, I
think even a newb passing on through could see that I clearly know a little
something about cf and other web dev technologies. Even if you belive its
not a lot, its easy to say that 'clues > 0'.

With that in mind, I agree 'select * from andy where clue > 0'. Couldn't
have put it better myself actually.


"Adam Cameron" <adam_junk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1s5dq90s4054z$.12upgqnue2v2$.dlg@40tude.net...
>> To paraphrase a signature found in these forums:
>>
>> SELECT * FROM andy WHERE clue > 0
>>
>> 0 records found.
>
> What that they says (over and over and OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN) is
> actually inaccurate though? I actually find their position more
> thoughtful
> and tenable that most of the people who leap to disagree. Especially the
> ones who resort to shite SQL-based quips.
>
> However, again we seem to be getting the same the pattern as the last
> cycle
> in which "innocent newbie" asks question and "andy" suddenly reappears
> with
> their normal stock responses.
>
> I still think "innocent newbie" is probably andy as well (did "innocent
> newbie" actually challenge this assertion, last time? I don't recall), and
> just the mechanism they uses an excuse to start the same thread again.
>
> I've got no problem with andy's POV, and tend to agree with it, for the
> most part. But I don't think it needed to be trotted out any more than
> once. Especially as the repetition simply removes any credibility they
> might have, as they're now just the butt of pisstaking. But even the
> *pisstaking* is getting a bit repetitive now.
>
> I harken back to my earlier (a few months ago) suggestion that "andy"
> should perhaps take stock of themselves; as there truly seems to be
> something not quite right in their head to make them bang on and on about
> this over and over again. And their personal well-being should be more
> important to them than any failing CF might have. This is genuine advice.
> It might seem like obvious/normal behaviour to you (andy), but *trust me*,
> it isn't. You should try to sort it out. Next time the temptation takes
> you to start/participate in one of these threads, try to work out what's
> causing you to do so. And be honest: it's NOT the reason you claim it is.
>
> --
> Adam

[Guest]

SliceOfLife posts:
>> SELECT * FROM andy WHERE clue > 0

>> 0 records found.

>So, select everything I have to say where it is clear I have a clue. Well, I
>think even a newb passing on through could see that I clearly know a little ...

You say you are not Andy, SOL, but you reply in a way that proves you are Andy. In the first two sentences, you use the personal pronoun "I" four times.

Gotcha.

Fess up, OK?

[Newsgroup_User]

>> You say you are not Andy, SOL, but you reply in a way that proves you
are Andy.

"Andy" is a name that has been given to anybody deemed a troll in this
forum, or anybody who speaks in a manner that does not claim cf to be the
biggest and best web platform known to man. Under these guidelines, I fess
up, my name is "Andy" (My actual name is Mitchell, but I guess "Andy" works
well enough for our purposes)

>> In the first two sentences, you use the personal pronoun "I"
> four times.

What, do you think I should have become confused and thought that the poster
addressing me had posted to the wrong thread? That he was talking to someone
else? You genuinely can't see how I could figure out he was talking to "me",
"I", "Myself" ? Fyi: I was accused of being an "Andy" in another post - I am
fully aware of who he was addressing and the reasons he called me "Andy"

Sadly, you can't prove anything on the internet - least ways is very hard to
do so. As a human, I am yet to be assigned an IP address, so the very best
you could hope for is to prove which computer the "Andy" posts from. You
certainly can't prove that a bloke called Mitchell is really called "Andy"
with the faulty logic you are applying. For all I know, you are "Andy".







"jdeline" <jdeline@deline.com> wrote in message
news:er81i8$5kd$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> SliceOfLife posts:
> >> SELECT * FROM andy WHERE clue > 0
>
> >So, select everything I have to say where it is clear I have a clue.
> >Well, I
> >think even a newb passing on through could see that I clearly know a
> >little
> ...
>
> You say you are not Andy, SOL, but you reply in a way that proves you
> are Andy. In the first two sentences, you use the personal pronoun
> "I"
> four times.
>
> Fess up, OK?
>
>

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by: Newsgroup User, "SOL"

"Andy" is a name that has been given to anybody deemed a troll in this
forum ... ...
My actual name is Mitchell

---

No, "Andy" is only one person (man does not apply).
Others claimed to have proved that you are Andy Grant but, since I don't remember the details, let's just call you "Mud". It is certain that you are the one same boy -- as can be seen by tracing your posts.

How we id Andy Grant versus an honest poster:
(1) Is the poster a prat? Check.
(2) Is the poster using a network that no one but Andy uses? Check.

It is amusing that for his claimed knowledge, Andy is easily traced to the same Australian networks every time (whether he claims to be in the UK, etc.). My 12 year old niece covers her tracks better.

Of course, it does boost his point a miniscule amount that he is the only CF Newsgroup poster from those nets.
I'm sure Ruby and PHP forums would have TRILLIONS of newsgroup posters from Andy's nets, right?

[Newsgroup_User]

Interesting MikerRoo - you seem to think I have 2 entire Australian networks
all to myself. You also seem to think that I may not know how to locate
freely available proxy lists, post via http instead of nntp, or any number
of other things that would do the trick. But oh no, I knock coldfusion (in
your eyes) so therefore I muct only be as web savvy as your 12 year old
niece.

It's logic like this that lends weight to my assertions and opinions on CF -
not becuase I am so knowing and wise, but rather, becuase some of the
responses posted here are clearly not so very well thought out (to say it
politely)

Who gives a crap about this whole "Andy" thing - we all know that nobody
knows who he is. His name almost certainly is not Andy not unless somebody
here has met him, knows him or has some other firm knowlegde of this persons
existence. Unless someone has both been in touch with his/her ISP who
subsequently disclosed private information AND at that same time they also
video taped "Andy" using the computer that had been assigned this IP
address.

You guys, honestly, anything to get off the real subject and throw some
smoke in the air, muddy the waters a bit. Fortunately, people are smart and
are quite capable of coming to their own conclusions on cf's viability . I
thik teh silly games and accusation actually work in my favor.


"MikerRoo" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:er8sa2$49l$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>

quote:

---

Originally posted by: Newsgroup User, "SOL"
>
> "Andy" is a name that has been given to anybody deemed a troll in this
> forum ... ...
> My actual name is Mitchell

---

>
> No, "Andy" is only one person (man does not apply).
> Others claimed to have proved that you are Andy Grant but, since I don't
> remember the details, let's just call you "Mud". It is certain that you
> are
> the one same boy -- as can be seen by tracing your posts.
>
> How we id Andy Grant versus an honest poster:
> (1) Is the poster a prat? Check.
> (2) Is the poster using a network that no one but Andy uses? Check.
>
> It is amusing that for his claimed knowledge, Andy is easily traced to the
> same Australian networks every time (whether he claims to be in the UK,
> etc.).
> My 12 year old niece covers her tracks better.
>
> Of course, it does boost his point a miniscule amount that he is the only
> CF
> Newsgroup poster from those nets.
> I'm sure Ruby and PHP forums would have TRILLIONS of newsgroup posters
> from
> Andy's nets, right?
>
>

[Newsgroup_User]

> How we id Andy Grant versus an honest poster:
> (1) Is the poster a prat? Check.
> (2) Is the poster using a network that no one but Andy uses? Check.

(3) The writing style and content is the same every time.
(4) I'm not sure they've actually ever flat out denied it.

--
Adam

[Newsgroup_User]

re: How we id Andy Grant versus an honest poster:

"Honest"? Where's the dishonesty in anything "I" have said? You think I'm
telling lies about my opinions on coldfusion and where it is placed in
todays market? Even when another poster who regularly posts here agrees with
most of my assertions?

The identity of people on the internet is their own - they can remain
anonymous or give out all their personal info depending on how they see fit,
they don't have to provide credentials to post in a forum. Making a big hoo
hah over someones identity has absolutely nothing to do with anything
coldfusion related (but maybe thats the point, to blow up a big smoke screen
and change the subject)

Looking through this forum its not hard to see that its the same few people
who start all this nonesense - as I said earlier, only adds credibility to
my opinions. Opinons which, btw, are actually quite popular opinions in the
lareger web dev community - not exactly anything radical or outrageous.

If its not coldfusion related, I'm not interested.

>> (1) Is the poster a prat? Check.

See what I mean, pointless comments like this. Can't possibly offend me as
such, but can very much make it look to observers that when debate rears its
head (in a forum of all places, gosh, fancy that) that the cf fanatics
resort to name calling due to the absence of any real cf related insight.

As "I" have repeated, cf has its place and is a decent technology. If you
can't deal maturely with somebody who merely doesn't like it's lack of
distribution, mareket share and measley third party support, how the heck
are you going to deal wth folk that simply don't like it at all or say
naughty things about it!!



"Adam Cameron" <adam_junk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1ow4zuw8vxowj.fiepilrfml50$.dlg@40tude.net...
>> How we id Andy Grant versus an honest poster:
>> (1) Is the poster a prat? Check.
>> (2) Is the poster using a network that no one but Andy uses? Check.
>
> (3) The writing style and content is the same every time.
> (4) I'm not sure they've actually ever flat out denied it.
>
> --
> Adam

[tooMuchTrouble]

to paraphrase al franken, "lies and the lying liars who tell them" pretty much fits your trolling in this forum andy. your memory is rather short and/or selective. don't recall being tracked down & outed by brian? do we have to go thru all that again?

your consistently deceitful approach makes pretty much anything you have to say suspect. not to mention the "why is andy grant bothering anyway?" question most of us who battled w/you in the past asked--i mean besides how you claimed you were being funded to troll these forums.

really if you ignore andy, he'll go back to carrying on debates w/himself again. so i'll take my own advice & do just that. adios andy.

[Newsgroup_User]

that really shed no light on the matter for any of us - but thanks for
trying.

re: don't recall being tracked down & outed by brian?

How can anybody possibly be "outed" in a forum - it's a forum!!

re:> really if you ignore andy, he'll go back to carrying on debates
w/himself
> again. so i'll take my own advice & do just that.

You didn't take your own advice, you actually went ahead and made the post!!
Your own advice would have lead you to simply delete the post and, as you
say, ignore me. But you made the post, hence ignored your own advice!!

PaulH, I suggest don't post again, as I said, if it aint coldfusion related
I really can't be bothered. The poster initiating this thread was looking
for serious advice and opinions - not a bunch of complaining and whining by
cf folk with hurt feelings. Sheesh, talk about sour grapes.



"PaulH" <paul@sustainablegis.com> wrote in message
news:er9oiv$6ff$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> to paraphrase al franken, "lies and the lying liars who tell them" pretty
> much
> fits your trolling in this forum andy. your memory is rather short and/or
> selective. don't recall being tracked down & outed by brian? do we have to
> go
> thru all that again?
>
> your consistently deceitful approach makes pretty much anything you have
> to
> say suspect. not to mention the "why is andy grant bothering anyway?"
> question
> most of us who battled w/you in the past asked--i mean besides how you
> claimed
> you were being funded to troll these forums.
>
> really if you ignore andy, he'll go back to carrying on debates w/himself
> again. so i'll take my own advice & do just that. adios andy.
>
>

[Newsgroup_User]

re: There is an old adage that states you can have it done cheap, you can
have it
done fast, or you can have it done well. Pick two.

Not sure I get the analogy - cf is not as prodcutive as RoR, but RoR is
cheap. aspx is not cheap but is massively supported and has a much more
productive IDE than cf. So on and so forth. cf doesn't really fit in the
category of "fast but not cheap" any better than any number of others do.

re: I, personally, can program very well and very fast in ColdFusion. The
tradeoff
is the initial cost of the server software.

Cost of the software should not be the main issue, thats just money, and
hopefully money that can be earned back. Coldfusion didn't lose favor so
much becuase it costs a lot of money rather a bi-product of this, it didn't
get installed on enough servers to grab the attention of the web community -
that was its main blow.

re: I, personally, can program very well and very fast in ColdFusion.

Yes, one ought to be able to code very fast in their chosen language, makes
sense.

re: If you do not have the ability to program very well or very fast in
ColdFusion, then your point of view will not be the same.

I can code vey well and very fast in coldfusion - but how does this solve
teh real issues. If I code faster will more jobs appear? If I code well will
I see some more third party support or more ISP's with cf support? You
arguments border more on being personal than on actually making any real
sense in this discussion.

>>or switch to a tool you are more
comfortable with.

Are you serious - do you think developers just get to "switch"? As in
"Excuse me boss, been doing some thing over the weekend. I'm gonna switch
all our systems to coldfusion. You don't mind do you??"


At teh end of teh day, cf offers little to nothing of significance to a
great deal of develoeprs -therefore they stick with whats more widely
supported and arguably what is more powerful.









"tclaremont" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:er4ipi$s59$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Andy, we hear loud and clear that CF is not the tool for you. Your needs
> are
> apparently not compatible with what CF has to offer. Either that or you
> have
> not learned to use CF in ways that work for you. There is no shame in
> that.
>
> You can drive a Chevrolet, or you can drive a Ferrari, or you can drive a
> BMW.
> Any one of them will get you where you need to go. One might be the right
> choice for you, but might be wrong for someone else.
>
> There is an old adage that states you can have it done cheap, you can have
> it
> done fast, or you can have it done well. Pick two.
>
> I, personally, can program very well and very fast in ColdFusion. The
> tradeoff
> is the initial cost of the server software.
>
> If you do not have the ability to program very well or very fast in
> ColdFusion, then your point of view will not be the same. The solution is
> to
> get more experience or more training in CF, or switch to a tool you are
> more
> comfortable with.
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Newsgroup_User]

re: Why? Because
they have found all other solutions (Microsoft and Java primarily) are
horrible.

Yeah sure - the governemnt memo says Micrsoft and Java are 'horrible' and
are moving immediately to coldfusion. Sure, we believe you, honest.

re: So you just stay with whatever lame language you want and let people
like me
keep nailing the very nice paying contracts for CF.

Hey, now thats what I'm talking about. Good for you!


"Dinghus" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:er4ogj$5hs$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Ahhhh SOL, you are clueless. I happen to be in a position to know this
> for a
> fact, the US Gov't is slowly moving to CF and Adobe solutions. Why?
> Because
> they have found all other solutions (Microsoft and Java primarily) are
> horrible.
>
> In all the gov't installations I've been in over the last few years there
> is
> no PHP and no Ruby. But more and more CF with Flash front ends.
>
> So you just stay with whatever lame language you want and let people like
> me
> keep nailing the very nice paying contracts for CF.
>

[Newsgroup_User]

re: settle on PHP
because of the resources, hosting options and number of programmers
available.

Just some advice for you. PHP programmers haev already begun the migration
to Ruby - at least this is a popular opinion and one that makes a great deal
of sense. PHP is relatively simple, but is very convoluted and suffers from
many of the same issues as CF does. Ruby was designed relatively recently
with the idea of simplicty at its core. RoR (Rails) was likewise developed
with simplicity at its core. By sheer virtue of the fact that these
platforms have learned from the mistakes made in PHP and CF. they are far
simpler and much more productive.

So, if you go the PHP route, you may inadvertantlly end up on RoR in the
coming years. Already many hosting services are starting to offer this.
Still, ealry days yet, and php will be the web designers choice for some
time to come. (with java and asp.net being more a coders choice imho)

If you throw money at cf you seriously won't win. You will still find that
the other platforms can do stuff that cf either can't do, or can't do as
well (possibly vica versa btw). To my way of thinking, why pay out for
something that doesn't really have a significant edge over competetion and,
in many cases, is even lacking compared to the competition? You end up
limiting yourself so much and not really benefiting in return - honestly,
there is nothing magical about cf, no super fast edge or productivity
gains - all the major platforms make these claims.(and all can back up them
up in varying ways)

If you simply 'like' cf or feel 'comfortable' with it - then thats a
diffrent matter. I bought an expensive camera recently and the first thing
the salesman said to me was to hold the camera's in my hands. There were
about 4 models that all seemed to be the same or similar. The guy said that
the most important thing was to simply hold them in my hands and see which
felt more comfortable. I went with the Nikon, it just felt 'right' to me.
You may go with CF becuase it feels 'right' to you. But don't make the
mistae of thinking you will somehow build better sites faster. I know I
certainly can't take better photos faster than I could with the Canon.




"mpjx" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:eqfpqd$sla$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Hi All,
>
> I need to make a decision on which scripting language or languages will be
> "officially" adopted by my design studio for producing web applications -
> both
> for internal use and for client projects. We're a small studio so we can't
> do
> the whole range of CF, PHP, ASP.NET, RUBY, JSP etc, etc in-house. I'm a
> designer, not a programmer, so not really experienced in any of these.
>
> I'm attracted to CF by the apparent shallow learning curve, interation
> with
> other Adobe products (Flash etc), apparent ease of communication with a
> wide
> range of databases, and finally the perceived value of the product to
> clients.
> Don't get me wrong, I love Open Source and many of it's projects, it's
> just
> that I wonder if corporates think OpenSource=free=cheap=low quality. In
> spite
> of this, if the studio doesn't adopt CF I think we'll probably settle on
> PHP
> because of the resources, hosting options and number of programmers
> available.
>
> Does anyone know of any honest, unbiased reports on the pros and cons of
> ColdFusion, compared to PHP or other programming languages? I've done some
> online searches but all the info that I've found appears biased because
> it's
> been written by "evangelists" in one camp or another (particularly PHP
> because
> there are so many programmers out there and ASP.NET because there are so
> many
> companies with a commercial interest in Microsoft products). Ideally the
> report
> would cover areas like application development time, total cost of
> ownership,
> availability of 3rd party hosting, scalability, reliability, security,
> hardware
> requirements, database connectivity, compatibility with other languages.
>
> Can anyone point me in the direction of such an article or report? I just
> want
> to base my decision on reliable information. Thanks in advance for your
> help!
>
> Martin
>

[Newsgroup_User]

re: if the studio doesn't adopt CF I think we'll probably settle on PHP
because of the resources, hosting options and number of programmers
available.

This makes me sad as this is the reality for the majority of people. Much as
they may like cf, it generally ends up not being a viable option. Kevin
Yank, editor over at SitePoint.com, recently declared cf to be a stagnant
technology - I don't think it's cf that is stagnant as such, just the market
for it.

Still, php shouldn't be your choice imho, it should be dot net if you want
raw power and a huge developer base or Ruby/RoR if you place emphassis on
simplicity and RAD development.


"mpjx" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:eqfpqd$sla$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Hi All,
>
> I need to make a decision on which scripting language or languages will be
> "officially" adopted by my design studio for producing web applications -
> both
> for internal use and for client projects. We're a small studio so we can't
> do
> the whole range of CF, PHP, ASP.NET, RUBY, JSP etc, etc in-house. I'm a
> designer, not a programmer, so not really experienced in any of these.
>
> I'm attracted to CF by the apparent shallow learning curve, interation
> with
> other Adobe products (Flash etc), apparent ease of communication with a
> wide
> range of databases, and finally the perceived value of the product to
> clients.
> Don't get me wrong, I love Open Source and many of it's projects, it's
> just
> that I wonder if corporates think OpenSource=free=cheap=low quality. In
> spite
> of this, if the studio doesn't adopt CF I think we'll probably settle on
> PHP
> because of the resources, hosting options and number of programmers
> available.
>
> Does anyone know of any honest, unbiased reports on the pros and cons of
> ColdFusion, compared to PHP or other programming languages? I've done some
> online searches but all the info that I've found appears biased because
> it's
> been written by "evangelists" in one camp or another (particularly PHP
> because
> there are so many programmers out there and ASP.NET because there are so
> many
> companies with a commercial interest in Microsoft products). Ideally the
> report
> would cover areas like application development time, total cost of
> ownership,
> availability of 3rd party hosting, scalability, reliability, security,
> hardware
> requirements, database connectivity, compatibility with other languages.
>
> Can anyone point me in the direction of such an article or report? I just
> want
> to base my decision on reliable information. Thanks in advance for your
> help!
>
> Martin
>

[tclaremont]

<sarcasm>
Unfortunately, Ruby On Rails is a very poor choice. If you do a search on Amazon.com for "Ruby On Rails" you only get 74 matches.

If you do a search for ColdFusion it returns 944 matches. That is thirteen times the number of matches for RoR.

Obviously there is not enough demand for RoR books to warrant publishing the volumes that exist for ColdFusion. If a market leader such as Amazon.com does not see fit to carry more books on RoR it is because there obviously is nowhere near enough demand to justify it.

And don't get me started on the Tiobe statistics that compare CF to RoR. Have you read the latest issue? The mailman was a day late with it and I took a day off from work just to read it cover to cover.

What kind of company is standing behind RoR? Are they as large and as experienced as Adobe? How many customer support options are there? What kind of distibution model do they have for RoR?

Using AndleyJandley logic, It really saddens me to say that all of my selectively chosen and manipulated criteria point overwhelmingly to CF as the logical choice here.

</sarcasm>

[Newsgroup_User]

re: If you do a search for ColdFusion it returns 944 matches. That is
thirteen
times the number of matches for RoR.

Sneaky bugger - you know many of those matches refer to nothing to do with
coldfusion as we know it (they refer to some scientific way of creating
energy)

re: What kind of company is standing behind RoR?

Not many. Nor does it have a decent IDE. The time is not right for RoR, but
its much better than PHP imho.

re: point overwhelmingly to CF as the
> logical choice here.

Not at all - RoR is still probably a better way to go regardless.
Productivity alone makes it better than CF. CF only had "productivity" left
as some way to try and differentiate itself from others. Thanks to RoR and
Asp.Net w/visual studio, cf now is finding it even harder to find a purpose
in life.

cf is fine for newbies and casual programmers, but if one needs to be
productive cf can be a real drag.




"tclaremont" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:erfdsr$sfu$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> <sarcasm>
> Unfortunately, Ruby On Rails is a very poor choice. If you do a search on
> Amazon.com for "Ruby On Rails" you only get 74 matches.
>
> If you do a search for ColdFusion it returns 944 matches. That is thirteen
> times the number of matches for RoR.
>
> Obviously there is not enough demand for RoR books to warrant publishing
> the
> volumes that exist for ColdFusion. If a market leader such as Amazon.com
> does
> not see fit to carry more books on RoR it is because there obviously is
> nowhere
> near enough demand to justify it.
>
> And don't get me started on the Tiobe statistics that compare CF to RoR.
> Have
> you read the latest issue? The mailman was a day late with it and I took a
> day
> off from work just to read it cover to cover.
>
> What kind of company is standing behind RoR? Are they as large and as
> experienced as Adobe? How many customer support options are there? What
> kind of
> distibution model do they have for RoR?
>
> Using AndleyJandley logic, It really saddens me to say that all of my
> selectively chosen and manipulated criteria point overwhelmingly to CF as
> the
> logical choice here.
>
> </sarcasm>
>

[Newsgroup_User]

re: > What kind of company is standing behind RoR?

37Signals and Google and quite a few others!

re:Are they as large and as
> experienced as Adobe?

Probably mopre expereinced than adobe - how long have adobe been doing web
dev platforms - must be about 5 minutes right? Serously, this is all down to
the developers behind the product. The RoR team could well be more
experienced than the CF team - I guess youd need to check out their
resumes.

re:> If you do a search for ColdFusion it returns 944 matches. That is
thirteen
> times the number of matches for RoR.

Try again - there are more books on the current versions of Ruby/Rails than
there ever have been for all versions of coldfusion! (I checked your search
and as I suspected, you deliberately left in books on the scientific
research also called coldfusion. (Whereas as I did not include books about
Rubys, Emeralds and othe rprecious stones!)




"tclaremont" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:erfdsr$sfu$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> <sarcasm>
> Unfortunately, Ruby On Rails is a very poor choice. If you do a search on
> Amazon.com for "Ruby On Rails" you only get 74 matches.
>
> If you do a search for ColdFusion it returns 944 matches. That is thirteen
> times the number of matches for RoR.
>
> Obviously there is not enough demand for RoR books to warrant publishing
> the
> volumes that exist for ColdFusion. If a market leader such as Amazon.com
> does
> not see fit to carry more books on RoR it is because there obviously is
> nowhere
> near enough demand to justify it.
>
> And don't get me started on the Tiobe statistics that compare CF to RoR.
> Have
> you read the latest issue? The mailman was a day late with it and I took a
> day
> off from work just to read it cover to cover.
>
> What kind of company is standing behind RoR? Are they as large and as
> experienced as Adobe? How many customer support options are there? What
> kind of
> distibution model do they have for RoR?
>
> Using AndleyJandley logic, It really saddens me to say that all of my
> selectively chosen and manipulated criteria point overwhelmingly to CF as
> the
> logical choice here.
>
> </sarcasm>
>

[Dinghus]

Did I say a memo was going around? LOL can you say "strawman"?

Here are the problems. Java has too steep of a learning curve. MS portal etc are just too complicated and the functionality just isn't there. Thus Adobe products, such as Connect, are being brought in instead.

When people like me can go in and create the webapp they need in a third the time and with at least twice the functionality as the other languages, people take notice.

Remember, Java was not intended to be a language for building websites. Neither was Basic or C (++ or #). That is sort of an afterthought. They are like trying to use Fortran or Cobol to build websites.

CF makes it a snap to generate webapps. It still has some shortcomings but nowhere near the same as other languages. I'll leave RoR out because I have never tried it.

[Newsgroup_User]

re: with at least twice the functionality as the other languages

You screwed up right there - thats the most ludicrous statement I have heard
in quite a while. CF has way less functinality than at least 3 of those
other languages you mentioned. In fact, many solutions in CF revolve around
leveraging the extra functionality found in those other languages!

re:They are
> like trying to use Fortran or Cobol to build websites.

Yeah right, php (personal HOME PAGE) had web dev as an afterthought!!
Asp.Net was designed sepecifiacally for RAD web dev a lot more recently than
CF was - this was an afterthought too you reckon!?? Seriously, you have
absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

re: CF makes it a snap to generate webapps.

As does Ror and Asp.Net with Visual Web Developer. Both these platforms are
superior to CF as they handle a lot of teh plumbing and code gen for you -
in CF you have to do a heck of a lot of coiding before you en reach the
level of RAD these tools provide.

re: It still has some shortcomings

Of course it does - it was created over a decade a go and way earlier than a
couple of these others you speak of. It's CF and PHP that are the Fortrans
of web design. (I don't truly belive this, but it's more accurate than your
ill informed analogy here was)

Can you show me these web apps that you built with 3 times more
functionality than any other platform could have provided? If no url, can
you say what functionality it had that was missing from all other platforms?
I don't think so.








"Dinghus" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:erneu9$b9e$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Did I say a memo was going around? LOL can you say "strawman"?
>
> Here are the problems. Java has too steep of a learning curve. MS portal
> etc
> are just too complicated and the functionality just isn't there. Thus
> Adobe
> products, such as Connect, are being brought in instead.
>
> When people like me can go in and create the webapp they need in a third
> the
> time and with at least twice the functionality as the other languages,
> people
> take notice.
>
> Remember, Java was not intended to be a language for building websites.
> Neither was Basic or C (++ or #). That is sort of an afterthought. They
> are
> like trying to use Fortran or Cobol to build websites.
>
> CF makes it a snap to generate webapps. It still has some shortcomings
> but
> nowhere near the same as other languages. I'll leave RoR out because I
> have
> never tried it.
>

[Newsgroup_User]

re: people take notice.

Dude, look at the stats on TIOBE and Netcraft, CF is the least popular web
dev platform out there. People are hardly 'taking notice'. CF is a very
niche product, a good one mind you. But it's a stretch to say that people
are 'taking notice'.

Despite your rather uninformed opinions, Asp.Net is the one that has been
making people take notice (and RoR) - it's acceleration to where it stands
to day has been phenomenal. CF has done nothing close to this to make people
'take notice' - and this is a provable fact, not just an opinion. Again, not
knocking CF, this has more to do with Asp.Net being owned by the biggest
marketing machine on the planet.

Serously, the post you made was so wildly innacurate that it looks like you
just entered the web dev game yesterday and are yet to get any real sense of
who the players are and where they all sit with resepct to each other.
People not taking notice of cf is one of the major reasons many a lot of
companies refuse to adopt it!

Keep using CF is it works for you, but I would work on losing those
fantasies you have about where it sits in the world of web development.


"Dinghus" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:erneu9$b9e$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Did I say a memo was going around? LOL can you say "strawman"?
>
> Here are the problems. Java has too steep of a learning curve. MS portal
> etc
> are just too complicated and the functionality just isn't there. Thus
> Adobe
> products, such as Connect, are being brought in instead.
>
> When people like me can go in and create the webapp they need in a third
> the
> time and with at least twice the functionality as the other languages,
> people
> take notice.
>
> Remember, Java was not intended to be a language for building websites.
> Neither was Basic or C (++ or #). That is sort of an afterthought. They
> are
> like trying to use Fortran or Cobol to build websites.
>
> CF makes it a snap to generate webapps. It still has some shortcomings
> but
> nowhere near the same as other languages. I'll leave RoR out because I
> have
> never tried it.
>

[Guest]

This previous entry is very un-informed about coldfusion - even if the other platforms are heavily used. You will find coldfusion used by almost every branch of the government and military. It is in the largest banking and transportation companies. It has a lot of international usage by companies, governments and quasi-goverment organizations.

You will find CF in many areas you may not expect. There are many catalog/retail sites done in coldfusion. Just google on a few bicycle keywords and ".cfm". Do the same with clothing, coffee, gormet foods, etc. CF may not be the chatter in all the blogs, etc., but it is out there in a big way. ColdFusion has had very big years recently in sales and it is a 'mature' product.

Also a noticeable trend is that customer's who moved away or thought about moving away, have come back to CF. Many companies and educational organizations who thought that J2EE/java was the way to go, have found that CF is far quicker and easier to work with. Deployment and updates to CF applications is simpler. Also, you can run CFMX side by side or mixed in with classic java J2EE applications. And it is being done.

Microsoft's technologies will always be prevalent, in the near future. It is the same as IBM technology was. It is a safe bet, even if it is not the best. CF continues to be very strong and if you probe a little you can see it is so. And CF8 is in beta now. Wait till it hits the streets. Long live CF!

[Newsgroup_User]

>>CF may not
be the chatter in all the blogs, etc., but it is out there in a big way

Sure, 'big way' untill you look at how the othe rplatforms define 'big way'.
Once you do that, CF's 'big way' starts to look like 'small way' again. It's
all relative. And speaking relatively, cf is not out there in a 'big way' at
all.

re: Also a noticeable trend is that customer's who moved away or thought
about
moving away, have come back to CF.

Not sure I have ever heard of this, or know of anyone who has. So 'noticable
trend' must be taekn as being something you are claiming as opposed to
something that is actually noticable or a trend? For it to be a trend, I
would say you'd need a few hundred cases or so - can you provide, say, just
ten examples or state your reasons for making this claim?? (if possible)

re: CF continues to be very strong and if you probe a little you can see it
is so

Probing reveals it be rarely used and a technology that many don't even
consider - it's by far the least used of the web platforms. And the reasons
for it being so are getting stronger and stroner every day (ie; alternative
platforms becomg far better than cf and much more prevalant, supported and
full featured)

I acknowledge that cf lives on in ceratin parts of the world, and I am sure
CF will live on for quite some time to come. While it is not the best or the
most popular, there are still many web designers that enjoy using it and
still have oppurtunities to do so. Long live CF, you bet.








"ksmith" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:ersf8a$d69$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> This previous entry is very un-informed about coldfusion - even if the
> other
> platforms are heavily used. You will find coldfusion used by almost every
> branch of the government and military. It is in the largest banking and
> transportation companies. It has a lot of international usage by
> companies,
> governments and quasi-goverment organizations.
>
> You will find CF in many areas you may not expect. There are many
> catalog/retail sites done in coldfusion. Just google on a few bicycle
> keywords
> and ".cfm". Do the same with clothing, coffee, gormet foods, etc. CF may
> not
> be the chatter in all the blogs, etc., but it is out there in a big way.
> ColdFusion has had very big years recently in sales and it is a 'mature'
> product.
>
> Also a noticeable trend is that customer's who moved away or thought about
> moving away, have come back to CF. Many companies and educational
> organizations who thought that J2EE/java was the way to go, have found
> that CF
> is far quicker and easier to work with. Deployment and updates to CF
> applications is simpler. Also, you can run CFMX side by side or mixed in
> with
> classic java J2EE applications. And it is being done.
>
> Microsoft's technologies will always be prevalent, in the near future. It
> is
> the same as IBM technology was. It is a safe bet, even if it is not the
> best.
> CF continues to be very strong and if you probe a little you can see it is
> so.
> And CF8 is in beta now. Wait till it hits the streets. Long live CF!
>