advantages and disadvantages of ColdFusion?

[Guest]

Hi All,

I need to make a decision on which scripting language or languages will be "officially" adopted by my design studio for producing web applications - both for internal use and for client projects. We're a small studio so we can't do the whole range of CF, PHP, ASP.NET, RUBY, JSP etc, etc in-house. I'm a designer, not a programmer, so not really experienced in any of these.

I'm attracted to CF by the apparent shallow learning curve, interation with other Adobe products (Flash etc), apparent ease of communication with a wide range of databases, and finally the perceived value of the product to clients. Don't get me wrong, I love Open Source and many of it's projects, it's just that I wonder if corporates think OpenSource=free=cheap=low quality. In spite of this, if the studio doesn't adopt CF I think we'll probably settle on PHP because of the resources, hosting options and number of programmers available.

Does anyone know of any honest, unbiased reports on the pros and cons of ColdFusion, compared to PHP or other programming languages? I've done some online searches but all the info that I've found appears biased because it's been written by "evangelists" in one camp or another (particularly PHP because there are so many programmers out there and ASP.NET because there are so many companies with a commercial interest in Microsoft products). Ideally the report would cover areas like application development time, total cost of ownership, availability of 3rd party hosting, scalability, reliability, security, hardware requirements, database connectivity, compatibility with other languages.

Can anyone point me in the direction of such an article or report? I just want to base my decision on reliable information. Thanks in advance for your help!

Martin

[MikerRoo]

I know of dozens of comparisons but none of them that all agree are "unbiased".

If you want to do the coding yourself, CF is a great choice.

If you want to grab or buy a great, turn-key solution to your web problems, PHP has much more available (just google on your issue of choice.)

Both languages have ok support forums although CF might be slow on the really gritty issues.

You can get very fast code help, for either platform, and for almost no money using RentACoder.com.

Every single commercial hosting provider offers PHP. CF hosting is rarer and more expensive but still easy to find. Google PHP and Coldfusion hosting and see for yourself.

Total cost of ownership, scalability, reliability, security, hardware requirements, database connectivity are more dependent on the quality of the coders. No language has a major advantage here.

However, for things like databases, API's (using UPS, Amazon, Salesforce, Yahoo, Flickr, your stockbroker, you name it) the API will ALWAYS have a PHP hook and example but may require some effort to use with CF. (Again, see for yourself.)

All of the above you can verify with a few minutes of searching.

Here is my opinion:

CF is still the easiest to learn. CF will (with varying degrees of effort) allow you to do anything you need to do.

PHP can get your BUSINESS solution up and running TONIGHT but you may not understand how it works or how to modify it. (But the canned apps are usually best of breed so maybe you don't need to modify it.)

CF with Flex, has the potential to make really great sites that work reliably on any device (companies have been promising this for decades but flash (Flex) might actually deliver, maybe).

[Guest]

Hi Mike

Thanks for the reply. Definitely food for thought there.

Cheers

Martin

[Newsgroup_User]

re: I'm attracted to CF by the apparent shallow learning curve

Bit of a myth I'm afraid - the learning curve for cf is just as significant
as it is for php. All, and I mean all, the same concepts must be learned for
both languages. The only real differences are the syntax, at least with
respect to learning curve.

The platform that genuinely makes things 'easy' but maintains the
flexibility that CF sacrafices, is the RoR platform (Ruby On Rails). As with
cf and php, the same learning curve is required (eg; how to program) but
once this is done RoR makes life very efficient and productive.

re: Does anyone know of any honest, unbiased reports on the pros and cons
of
ColdFusion, compared to PHP or other programming languages?

It's going to be hard to get unbiased, but you could look at the TIOBE index
at http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/index.htm to get some insight into the
level of interest in cf with respect to other languages. You will see its
not so popular, rarely used in fact. This is not becuase its no good, but
becuase there is similar and better available for free or with better
support from third parties. (and my presonal favourite, with far bigger and
stronger communities)

re: Can anyone point me in the direction of such an article or report?

As you say, they are nearly always biased. My take on cf is that is is
stagnant with only very few web developers using it compared to other more
widely supported and mainstream products. It will still be around a while
longer, but its definitely one thats not taken all that seriously by the web
developer community at large.

re: Does anyone know of any honest, unbiased reports on the pros and cons
of
ColdFusion, compared to PHP or other programming languages?

All I can say is that when listed side by side the pros are nearly always
outweighed by the cons when it comes to coldfusion. Cons being many and
varied (small community, very few publications, poor support from adobe,
very few third patyy products, not very many skilled cf developers out
there, not a decent enough selection of qulaity hosting services ..... even
worse, the simple fact that there are many tools as powerful and more
powerful than cf available for completely no cost.)














"mpjx" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:eqfpqd$sla$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Hi All,
>
> I need to make a decision on which scripting language or languages will be
> "officially" adopted by my design studio for producing web applications -
> both
> for internal use and for client projects. We're a small studio so we can't
> do
> the whole range of CF, PHP, ASP.NET, RUBY, JSP etc, etc in-house. I'm a
> designer, not a programmer, so not really experienced in any of these.
>
> I'm attracted to CF by the apparent shallow learning curve, interation
> with
> other Adobe products (Flash etc), apparent ease of communication with a
> wide
> range of databases, and finally the perceived value of the product to
> clients.
> Don't get me wrong, I love Open Source and many of it's projects, it's
> just
> that I wonder if corporates think OpenSource=free=cheap=low quality. In
> spite
> of this, if the studio doesn't adopt CF I think we'll probably settle on
> PHP
> because of the resources, hosting options and number of programmers
> available.
>
> Does anyone know of any honest, unbiased reports on the pros and cons of
> ColdFusion, compared to PHP or other programming languages? I've done some
> online searches but all the info that I've found appears biased because
> it's
> been written by "evangelists" in one camp or another (particularly PHP
> because
> there are so many programmers out there and ASP.NET because there are so
> many
> companies with a commercial interest in Microsoft products). Ideally the
> report
> would cover areas like application development time, total cost of
> ownership,
> availability of 3rd party hosting, scalability, reliability, security,
> hardware
> requirements, database connectivity, compatibility with other languages.
>
> Can anyone point me in the direction of such an article or report? I just
> want
> to base my decision on reliable information. Thanks in advance for your
> help!
>
> Martin
>

[tclaremont]

Please do a search of these forums for posts by the previous author. A perusal of the results of that search should also be factored into your decision process.

[Dinghus]

sure looks like another troll (or the same one in another disguise)

[Newsgroup_User]

re: A perusal of the results of that search should also be factored into
your decision process.

Absolutely. Like the vast majority of the web develoepr community, I firmly
belive that cf is not very popular and is grossly over priced in a market
where there is equivalent to far better available at no charge. CF barely
survived php, RoR will likely not even be kind enough to leave it the
measley market share php left it with.

Outside of this forum, this view is widely held and accepted. CF is nice
enough, but it just aint doing it for most people, even those that dearly
love cf are faced with the reality that it just aint happening anymore.
Sounds 'trollish' I know, but hey, call it as I see it and as I see most
others seem to be seeing it.


"tclaremont" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:er2aph$8ek$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Please do a search of these forums for posts by the previous author. A
> perusal of the results of that search should also be factored into your
> decision process.

[MikerRoo]

quote:

---

Originally posted by: Andy (AKA SliceOfLife)
Like the vast majority of the web develoepr community, I firmly
belive that cf is not very popular and is grossly over priced in a market

---

Well I'm glad you have this magic insight into the "vast majority" of "web develoeprs" (sic).
Of course, the vast majority spends a huge number of dollars and/or man-hours to put out mostly appalling (in terms of security and usability) web sites.

If you can retune your psychic powers to the "vast majority" of NYSE investors, I will bankroll you and we will make billions. (I'm eager to get started!)

If you only need one of the quality PHP applications, unmodified, then by all means, get it and go.
If you have skill, a tolerance for pain, and a relatively straightforward custom app, then Ruby is for you.

If you want a fully customized solution that you can understand and that doesn't break the bank, then CF is still the best language. (Four out of five developers surveyed agree!)

[Newsgroup_User]

the vast majority spends a huge number of dollars and/or man-hours
> to put out mostly appalling (in terms of security and usability) web
> sites.

Sure, MS, Sun and open source community have no clue what they are doing -
thank god for Adobe/Macromedia then eh?

With respect to security, cf has absolutely no advantage or disadvantage
over any other. With respect to usability - well, this has absolutely
nothing at all to do with the server side language you adopt. Your argument
is really just plain stupid.

Ruby, painful? Are you kidding me? Ruby is likley the simplest language out
there (even more so with Rails framwework. If you can't understand Ruby I
can't see you being any good at cf either. With ruby you get more done
faster. CF is a painfully slow. Its only advantage here is that at least it
isn't as painful as php just yet (but getting there now it has all the OO
features and teh new complexities the next version will provide)

Doesn't take a psychic to see cf is going down the gurgler - just the
ability to be anyone who doesn't spend too much time hanging round here.
(and judging by the number of posts to these forums, thats hardly anyone)

Again, cf is okay, not knocking cf itself. But I am knocking its standing in
the community and its fast fade to there nether-regions of the web dev
world.


"MikerRoo" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:er31a2$4av$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>

quote:

---

Originally posted by: Andy (AKA SliceOfLife)
> Like the vast majority of the web develoepr community, I firmly
> belive that cf is not very popular and is grossly over priced in a market
>

---

>
> Well I'm glad you have this magic insight into the "vast majority" of "web
> develoeprs" (sic).
> Of course, the vast majority spends a huge number of dollars and/or
> man-hours
> to put out mostly appalling (in terms of security and usability) web
> sites.
>
> If you can retune your psychic powers to the "vast majority" of NYSE
> investors, I will bankroll you and we will make billions. (I'm eager to
> get
> started!)
>
> If you only need one of the quality PHP applications, unmodified, then by
> all
> means, get it and go.
> If you have skill, a tolerance for pain, and a relatively straightforward
> custom app, then Ruby is for you.
>
> If you want a fully customized solution that you can understand and that
> doesn't break the bank, then CF is still the best language. (Four out of
> five
> developers surveyed agree!)
>
>
>

[azadisg]

shall we just stop feeding this useless thread?

to mpjx:
1) first of all, if you are just a designer, not a programmer, then you should not be making the decision which language/platform your "design studio" should "officially" adopt. leave that to people who are actually going to be writing the code around your designs.

2) secondly, using just one tool is not a good approach. you can't build a car with just a spanner. from your original post it appears that you currently do not have anyone in your company who knows even one of the languages you have mentioned - otherwise your choice of language would have been made for you. it is very easy now to find a freelance programmer for any language who is available on a project-by-project basis.

and i am not even going to address any of the troll's useless comments/quips.

[Newsgroup_User]

re: it
is very easy now to find a freelance programmer for any language who is
available on a project-by-project basis.

Slow down there Chief! This is the one of the major drawbacks to CF in the
minds of most decision makers and IT managers, it IS very hard to find a cf
developer available on a project by project basis. This is true in a great
many parts of the world as many will atest too. On the other hand, your
statement is actually true for most other server side platforms as there is
a large developer base of .Net, Java and PHP programmers out there.
Filtering out the good ones from the bad ones is hard enough when you have a
large talent pool -with CF its even worse as the pool is so small to begin
with.

re: > 1) first of all, using just one tool is not a good approach.

If you mean one server side dev tool - then using one IS a very good
approach. Again, most other developers in other langages do just fine using
the one tool. CF folk, however, simply have to use more than one tool to
make a living. A .Net guy, for example, can make all his living of .Net. A
cf developer nearly always has to learn another server language to survive.

Flawed arguments my friend, but with the best of intentions no doubt.


"Sabaidee" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:er3b0e$ead$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> shall we just stop feeding this useless thread?
> to mpjx:
> 1) first of all, using just one tool is not a good approach. you can't
> build a
> car with just a spanner. from your original post it appears that you
> currently
> do not have anyone in your company who knows even one of the languages you
> have
> mentioned - otherwise your choice of language would have been made for
> you. it
> is very easy now to find a freelance programmer for any language who is
> available on a project-by-project basis.
>
> 2) secondly, if you are just a designer, not a programmer, then you should
> not
> be making the decision which language/platform or "design studio" should
> "officially" adopt. leave that to people who are actually going to be
> writing
> the code around your designs.
>
> and i am not even going to address any of the troll's useless
> coments/quips.
>
>

[Guest]

OK, lots of opinions here ... thanks guys.

MikerRoo: can you give me any concrete examples of why CF is more secure and more flexible than other languages? Any solid examples concerning total cost of ownership would also be welcome.

SliceOfLife: can you provide solid examples of why CF is not inherently more secure than other languages; evidence that total cost of ownership (in business environments) is more when using CF than other languages; also solid examples of why RoR is easier than CF.

Sabaidee: Thanks for you comments. Yes, I am a designer, not a programmer bu I'm also a business owner. The choice of which language the studio adopts is a strategic decision and as such should be made by me based on the advice of experienced professionals (i.e. programmers). It will determine what skillset I look for when hiring a programmer, how I pitch to business clients, and to a certain extent, how the studio brand is affected. These kind of discussions/opinions are exactly what I need for taking a decision.

Thanks again all of you.

[MikerRoo]

quote:

---

Originally posted by: mpjx
OK, lots of opinions here ... thanks guys.

MikerRoo: can you give me any concrete examples of why CF is more secure and more flexible than other languages? Any solid examples concerning total cost of ownership would also be welcome.

SliceOfLife: ... ...

---

First, I did not say that CF was more secure and flexible than other languages! I said, "Total cost of ownership, scalability, reliability, security, hardware requirements, database connectivity are more dependent on the quality of the coders. No language has a major advantage here."

However, out of the box CF IS slightly more secure. It handles some SQL injection and some XSS attacks by default. Many aspx and PHP programmers build their first several sites without this protection.

My original opinion was that CF was easiest to learn.
All the major languages can do anything a digital computer is capable of. That is, they are all equally flexible in theory.

For TCO, I cannot release the details but my company did an internal study on two internal tracking systems. One Java, one CF.
Java: 8 developers, 53 contractors, $50+ million (exact numbers not properly tracked!!), 19 months development, 1 star rating by users.
CF: 4 developers, 1 contractor, $88K, 6 months (first non-beta release at 2 months), 4 of 4 stars by users. It also had more features and more users by the time I left the project.

Finally, you should know that SliceOfLife has a very trollish history and many aliases. But he always uses the newsgroup interface for his trolling and always posts out of Australia (usually one of two networks).

[Newsgroup_User]

re: It handles some SQL
injection and some XSS attacks by default. Many aspx and PHP programmers
build their first several sites without this protection.

This is simply not true. aspx (rather ado.net) uses strongly typed sql
parameters in exactly the same fashion that cf uses parameters. Many cf
coders build their first sites without knowing how to use this protection.
MikerRoo, this comment is just silly - cf has no more or no less strength in
this area - this is purely down to the individual programmer irrespective of
language. If one did have to make such an argument in favor of one over the
other it would be aspx over cf as aspx is strongly typed, thus leaving the
programmer far less room for making injection like attacks possible. I
cannot stress enough how amateurish and ignorant that comment was.

re: All the major languages can do anything a digital computer is capable
of.
That is, they are all equally flexible in theory.

Yes, but with cf you often have to learn java to get it to be more
'flexible'. And if you can see up front that you will need to learn java,
then you really have to accept that you have not dodged any learning curves.

re: Finally, you should know that SliceOfLife has a very trollish history

yeah right, so all my comments are worthless now? I think not, they check
out pretty well and are more in line with reality and what most developers
believe outside of this forum.




"MikerRoo" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:er41gl$8pf$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>

quote:

---

Originally posted by: mpjx
> OK, lots of opinions here ... thanks guys.
>
> MikerRoo: can you give me any concrete examples of why CF is more secure
> and
> more flexible than other languages? Any solid examples concerning total
> cost of
> ownership would also be welcome.
>
> SliceOfLife: ... ...

---

>
> First, I did not say that CF was more secure and flexible than other
> languages! I said, "Total cost of ownership, scalability, reliability,
> security, hardware requirements, database connectivity are more dependent
> on
> the quality of the coders. No language has a major advantage here."
>
> However, out of the box CF IS slightly more secure. It handles some SQL
> injection and some XSS attacks by default. Many aspx and PHP programmers
> build their first several sites without this protection.
>
> My original opinion was that CF was easiest to learn.
> All the major languages can do anything a digital computer is capable of.
> That is, they are all equally flexible in theory.
>
> For TCO, I cannot release the details but my company did an internal study
> on
> two internal tracking systems. One Java, one CF.
> Java: 8 developers, 53 contractors, $50+ million (exact numbers not
> properly
> tracked!!), 19 months development, 1 star rating by users.
> CF: 4 developers, 1 contractor, $88K, 6 months (first non-beta release at
> 2
> months), 4 of 4 stars by users It also had more features and more users
> by the
> time I left the project.
>
> Finally, you should know that SliceOfLife has a very trollish history and
> many
> aliases. But he always uses the newsgroup interface for his trolling and
> always posts out of Australia (usually one of two networks).
>
>
>

[Guest]

Hi Mike

Thanks again for the quick reply. R.E. the security question, sorry I read your second comment:

"Of course, the vast majority spends a huge number of dollars and/or man-hours to put out mostly appalling (in terms of security and usability) web sites."

but out of context of your first post. My bad. I've re-read everything and I do understand the point you're making.

I really appreciate your objective advice.

As for SliceofLife: let him (or her) put their money where their mouth is. If they can give concrete examples to back up their statements, great.

[Newsgroup_User]

re: If
they can give concrete examples to back up their statements, great.

Which statements? My main contention here is that cf is the least popular,
thats easy to prove if needed? Can I give examples of how it is not as
productive as, say, aspx? Yeah sure, just let me know. I feel I can back up
my beliefs - but don't listen to me, just cruise round teh web for a while
and get a sense for how cf is percieved in the web dev community at large.
It's a platform for newbies and not so many folk are using it these days
(cf was a lot bigger in years gone by but has largely been killed off by MS,
Java and the many open source options that we now have)




"mpjx" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:er42s1$a67$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Hi Mike
>
> Thanks again for the quick reply. R.E. the security question, sorry I read
> your second comment:
>
> "Of course, the vast majority spends a huge number of dollars and/or
> man-hours
> to put out mostly appalling (in terms of security and usability) web
> sites."
>
> but out of context of your first post. My bad. I've re-read everything and
> I
> do understand the point you're making.
>
> I really appreciate your objective advice.
>
> As for SliceofLife: let him (or her) put their money where their mouth is.
> If
> they can give concrete examples to back up their statements, great.
>

[Newsgroup_User]

Hey mpjx, don't get me wrong here. I am not saying cf is no good, cf still
has a market. All I am contending is that the cf market is very small and
that its no big secret why it is so small. It may not matter to you about
this - but if you want something that is more widely supported, has a good
selection of developers on hand, and has a decent support system with lots
of competetive third party support - well, cf is generally not going to be
the number one choice.

Your problem here is that you are not getting a fair set of comments from
anyone. Plus the tech advice you are getting is , well, lets just say its
like the blind leading the blind in some ways. CF is a langugae that
attracts newbies (usually designers) so you get some pretty wacky and
screwed up advice in here sometimes.

Pick up your telephone and call soem web shops in your area - make like you
want a site developed and that somebody told you it should be done with cf.
Listen to the responses you get and the advice they give you. Many will say
"why cf? Its too expensive. We can do that that in {php, asp.net ...] much
faster and for half the cost." Not neccasarilly becuase its true, but
because they just don't have cf developers or see the need for a cf server
in todays market. CF is the exception these days, not the rule - you'll see.
(or not - depends where you live I guess.the pont is that cf is not popular
or used in all places, Whereas teh others under discussion are wildly
popular and supported all over the world)





"mpjx" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:er42s1$a67$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Hi Mike
>
> Thanks again for the quick reply. R.E. the security question, sorry I read
> your second comment:
>
> "Of course, the vast majority spends a huge number of dollars and/or
> man-hours
> to put out mostly appalling (in terms of security and usability) web
> sites."
>
> but out of context of your first post. My bad. I've re-read everything and
> I
> do understand the point you're making.
>
> I really appreciate your objective advice.
>
> As for SliceofLife: let him (or her) put their money where their mouth is.
> If
> they can give concrete examples to back up their statements, great.
>

[tclaremont]

There is no "right" answer for everyone. If there WAS a right answer there would only be ONE platform.

CF is great if you like ease of use, quick learning curve, flexibility, maintainability and fast development.

If your priorities are such that you need to choose from four billion job candidates for each programming position, or that you are so naive that you HAVE to have a Microsoft solution, or the extra five dollars a month in hosting charges is a problem for you, or you need the ability to choose from a plethora of books on such an intuitive platform, then CF might not be the direction that you want to go.

The industry trend as I see it is NOT CF. It is NOT ASP. It is NOT NET. The industry trend has evolved to the point that picking just about any of these tools will get the job done quicker and easier than ever before. The bottom line is that the choice of tool is nowhere near as consequential these days as it was in the past. You can choose just about any tool you want. They are just tools.

Handing someone [insert current programming flavor of the month here] does not make them a good programmer any more than handing someone a hammer makes them a good carpenter.

Pick a tool. Learn to use it correctly. Give the customers a product that works for them.

[Newsgroup_User]

rE: CF is great if you like ease of use, quick learning curve, flexibility,
maintainability and fast development.

Sure, but you can get all that and much more with other platforms - and at a
much more flexible cost and with a much larget talent pool and distrubtion
base. So the reasons to go the cf route are usually thin on the ground
unless there are some pretty damned specific grounds for it.

re: that picking just about any of these
tools will get the job done quicker and easier than ever before.

Exactly. (Though cf is not really all that productive by comparison due to
having no real IDE and a very small amount of third party interest and
support. Other platforms go above and beyond it 'tag' approach , before you
hop with the magical tags theory, and have done for a number of years)

re: You can choose just about any tool you want. They are just tools.

Bad advice, very bad. You must choose the tool that is right for the job. If
it is going to be expensive and limiting (as cf can certainly be) then it is
a a bad choice to say "oh, any tool will do"

re: Pick a tool. Learn to use it correctly.

Good advice, very good.












"tclaremont" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:er4ddb$lms$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> There is no "right" answer for everyone. If there WAS a right answer there
> would only be ONE platform.
>
> CF is great if you like ease of use, quick learning curve, flexibility,
> maintainability and fast development.
>
> If your priorities are such that you need to choose from four billion job
> candidates for each programming position, or that you are so naive that
> you
> HAVE to have a Microsoft solution, or the extra five dollars a month in
> hosting
> charges is a problem for you, or you need the ability to choose from a
> plethora
> of books on such an intuitive platform, then CF might not be the direction
> that
> you want to go.
>
> The industry trend as I see it is NOT CF. It is NOT ASP. It is NOT NET.
> The
> industry trend has evolved to the point that picking just about any of
> these
> tools will get the job done quicker and easier than ever before. The
> bottom
> line is that the choice of tool is nowhere near as consequential these
> days as
> it was in the past. You can choose just about any tool you want. They are
> just
> tools.
>
> Handing someone [insert current programming flavor of the month here] does
> not
> make them a good programmer any more than handing someone a hammer makes
> them a
> good carpenter.
>
> Pick a tool. Learn to use it correctly. Give the customers a product that
> works for them.
>

[tclaremont]

Andy, we hear loud and clear that CF is not the tool for you. Your needs are apparently not compatible with what CF has to offer. Either that or you have not learned to use CF in ways that work for you. There is no shame in that.

You can drive a Chevrolet, or you can drive a Ferrari, or you can drive a BMW. Any one of them will get you where you need to go. One might be the right choice for you, but might be wrong for someone else.

There is an old adage that states you can have it done cheap, you can have it done fast, or you can have it done well. Pick two.

I, personally, can program very well and very fast in ColdFusion. The tradeoff is the initial cost of the server software.

If you do not have the ability to program very well or very fast in ColdFusion, then your point of view will not be the same. The solution is to get more experience or more training in CF, or switch to a tool you are more comfortable with.

[Dinghus]

Ahhhh SOL, you are clueless. I happen to be in a position to know this for a fact, the US Gov't is slowly moving to CF and Adobe solutions. Why? Because they have found all other solutions (Microsoft and Java primarily) are horrible.

In all the gov't installations I've been in over the last few years there is no PHP and no Ruby. But more and more CF with Flash front ends.

So you just stay with whatever lame language you want and let people like me keep nailing the very nice paying contracts for CF.

[Guest]

To paraphrase a signature found in these forums:

SELECT * FROM andy WHERE clue > 0

0 records found.

[Newsgroup_User]

> To paraphrase a signature found in these forums:
>
> SELECT * FROM andy WHERE clue > 0
>
> 0 records found.

What that they says (over and over and OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN) is
actually inaccurate though? I actually find their position more thoughtful
and tenable that most of the people who leap to disagree. Especially the
ones who resort to shite SQL-based quips.

However, again we seem to be getting the same the pattern as the last cycle
in which "innocent newbie" asks question and "andy" suddenly reappears with
their normal stock responses.

I still think "innocent newbie" is probably andy as well (did "innocent
newbie" actually challenge this assertion, last time? I don't recall), and
just the mechanism they uses an excuse to start the same thread again.

I've got no problem with andy's POV, and tend to agree with it, for the
most part. But I don't think it needed to be trotted out any more than
once. Especially as the repetition simply removes any credibility they
might have, as they're now just the butt of pisstaking. But even the
*pisstaking* is getting a bit repetitive now.

I harken back to my earlier (a few months ago) suggestion that "andy"
should perhaps take stock of themselves; as there truly seems to be
something not quite right in their head to make them bang on and on about
this over and over again. And their personal well-being should be more
important to them than any failing CF might have. This is genuine advice.
It might seem like obvious/normal behaviour to you (andy), but *trust me*,
it isn't. You should try to sort it out. Next time the temptation takes
you to start/participate in one of these threads, try to work out what's
causing you to do so. And be honest: it's NOT the reason you claim it is.

--
Adam

[MikerRoo]

quote:

---

Originally posted by: Newsgroup User Adam Cameron

What that they says (over and over and OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN) is
actually inaccurate though? I actually find their position more thoughtful
and tenable that most of the people who leap to disagree.

However, again we seem to be getting the same the pattern as the last cycle
in which "innocent newbie" asks question and "andy" suddenly reappears with
their normal stock responses.

---

Oh come on, Adam, mpjx is not Andy. Get a grip.

As for "accurate", "thoughtful", and "tenable"; that's how evil always works.
They use a small truth to sell a huge lie.

Sure Andy repeats, ad nauseam, some valid points. But it is clear from the bulk of his newsgroup posts that his criticism is not constructive and meant only to harm.

Look at Andy's beloved Tiobe list... I make, and my coworkers make, 5 or 6 figures using very low ranked languages on that list (Coldfusion, LabView, LabWindows, and Matlab). I have an acquaintance who still gets $150K/year writing Cobol!

Coldfusion needs much improvement, it's true (see some of my posts).
But, get on the Scorpio Beta and you'll see that they are working in some of the right directions.

CF is not perfect but it has a future and is still kick butt -- especially for rapid prototyping.

Further, we are near a critical juncture, Ajax is great but Flex has the potential to be a real "killer ap". If enough developers produce enough quality infrastructure around flex, we could find a major demand for the kind of true cross-platform RIA that Flex promises.

[Newsgroup_User]

re: And be honest: it's NOT the reason you claim it is.

Correct. However, is it also possible it's not the reason that you theorise
it is? (Hey, I don't have a problem with your theory btw; not being
defensive here - I would have same theroy too based on level of info you
have)

I actually find their position more thoughtful
> and tenable that most of the people who leap to disagree.

Thank you - just trying to help out the op with what I belive to be a more
represenative view of how the web dev community see cf these days.



"Adam Cameron" <adam_junk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1s5dq90s4054z$.12upgqnue2v2$.dlg@40tude.net...
>> To paraphrase a signature found in these forums:
>>
>> SELECT * FROM andy WHERE clue > 0
>>
>> 0 records found.
>
> What that they says (over and over and OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN) is
> actually inaccurate though? I actually find their position more
> thoughtful
> and tenable that most of the people who leap to disagree. Especially the
> ones who resort to shite SQL-based quips.
>
> However, again we seem to be getting the same the pattern as the last
> cycle
> in which "innocent newbie" asks question and "andy" suddenly reappears
> with
> their normal stock responses.
>
> I still think "innocent newbie" is probably andy as well (did "innocent
> newbie" actually challenge this assertion, last time? I don't recall), and
> just the mechanism they uses an excuse to start the same thread again.
>
> I've got no problem with andy's POV, and tend to agree with it, for the
> most part. But I don't think it needed to be trotted out any more than
> once. Especially as the repetition simply removes any credibility they
> might have, as they're now just the butt of pisstaking. But even the
> *pisstaking* is getting a bit repetitive now.
>
> I harken back to my earlier (a few months ago) suggestion that "andy"
> should perhaps take stock of themselves; as there truly seems to be
> something not quite right in their head to make them bang on and on about
> this over and over again. And their personal well-being should be more
> important to them than any failing CF might have. This is genuine advice.
> It might seem like obvious/normal behaviour to you (andy), but *trust me*,
> it isn't. You should try to sort it out. Next time the temptation takes
> you to start/participate in one of these threads, try to work out what's
> causing you to do so. And be honest: it's NOT the reason you claim it is.
>
> --
> Adam