Illustrator Colour synchronisation won't sync

[neilhirst]

Hi...

I have a long standing issue with Illustrator colour being dull which is more obvious when veiwing and printing the same image in photoshop. This is irrespective of files being CMYK or RGB. I have manually checked that all my colour settings are the same but this has made no difference. I have tried synchronising the settings through Bridge which tells me all my CC applications are synchronised. However I have noticed that apart from not fixing the problem Illustrator says that my CC applications settings are not synchronised. What's more, if I manually set the settings to the saved profile for Photoshop the Color Magement Policies box for CMYK sets to Preserve Numbers rather than preserve Embedded profiles, which is what it should be.

I am using Illustrator 2020 and Photoshop 2020 and working on a macbook pro if that makes a difference.

Any suggetions would be hugely gratefully received as its driving me mad.

Thanks

Neil

[Bob_Hallam]

Save your color settings in Photoshop.  

Open Adobe Bridge and go to color settings and load the settings you just saved  

click the syncronize button and This will syncronize your color settings accross all the adobe applications on your computer.  

[neilhirst]

Hi Bob

Thanks for your reply.

I did as you have described before posting my question. I'll give it another try but  I am not hopeful.

Cheers

Neil

[Bob_Hallam]

Check that all of your images have embedded profiles.  Make sure your color settings have the correct policies for handeling them.   Then double check that all of the applications are actually using the settings you sync'ed.  If CMYK, and you are using Preserve Numbers, that's fine so long as the CMYK settings are the same and the images do have embedded profiles, your golden.  If the above is not the case and you have embedded profiles without common settings then the color appearance will not match.    So give that a go and let me know.  

[neilhirst]

Hi Bob 

I have re-checked the settings which do now say they are synced. The issue remains though. I've attached screenshots of my settings and of the same image in illustrator and photoshop side by side. Is there anything else I'm missing?

Thanks

Neil

[D Fosse]

Again: the color settings aren't important and there is no need to synchronize settings.

The important thing is to have an embedded profile in the document, and that this is a standard color space like sRGB, Adobe RGB etc.

The embedded profile will override your color settings.

I tried to say this in a post two days ago, but it's now at the bottom of the thread and apparently no one read it ... 😉

[neilhirst]

Hi D Fosse

Thanks for your replies. I did read the first post but could you just clarify what you mean by having "an embedded profile in the document" Is that not the working space setting? If not where do I find it? and how do I change it?

Thanks

Neil

[D Fosse]

No, the embedded profile is not necessarily the same as your color settings. The embedded profile takes precedence.

Here's how you keep track of the embedded profile. This is Photoshop, but Illustrator works the same way.

In Photoshop you can also open Edit > Convert to Profile or Edit > Assign Profile, just to check what it says under "source profile".

If it says "untagged" here, there is no embedded profile, and you need to assign one.

The embedded profile will always follow the document (that's why it's embedded), and ensures correct handling in all applications and environments as long as they support color management.

[Bob_Hallam]

A couple more questions Neil:  

What OS is the computer running?  

Does this document have an embedded profile?  If so what is it?  

You can have the document display the profile by clicking the right arrow at the bottom of the frame and choose document profile.     

[neilhirst]

OS 10.14.6 and the profile is Coated FOGRA39 (ISO 12647-2:2004)

[NB, colourmanagement]

Neil, are you using Mac or Windows?

Display profile issues on windows can cause colour managed applications to have differing appearances. 

If the 'color settings' options when viewed within the different applications are consistent, then it would seem like syncing is working and the issue lies elsewhere.

neil barstow, colourmanagement net :: adobe forum volunteer
google me "neil barstow colourmanagement" for lots of free articles on colour management
[please only use the blue reply button at the top of the page, this maintains the original thread title and chronological order of posts]

[D Fosse]

This is a MacBook Pro and anyway it doesn't sound like a bad monitor profile.

neilh, the color settings aren't important. They're just defaults. There is no need to synchronize color settings! What is important is that you have an embedded icc profile in the document. Which one is not important here (that's determined for other considerations) - but there has to be one. sRGB, Adobe RGB, US Web Coated (SWOP), ISO Coated (ECI) 300%, etc. etc.

The embedded document profile will override your color settings.

Or at least it should, under all normal conditions. This is governed by the "color management policies" setting, and this is the only critical part of the color settings. It should always be set to Preserve Embedded Profiles.

There is one special case. Under CMYK policies, Illustrator and InDesign will have the default Preserve Numbers. The reason for this is to avoid K-only (overprinting) blacks being converted to four-color blacks. This only applies for graphics and text, not photographs/images, so Photoshop doesn't have this setting.

Without an embedded profile, all bets are off, and applications will treat the data randomly. The profile  defines the numbers. In a color managed application, any profile will be handled correctly and displayed correctly. As long as it's there.

[rob day]

Illustrator has a single Document Color mode—either RGB or CMYK—which is different than InDesign which allows you to have a mix of RGB, CMYK, Lab or grayscale objects on the same page. So you have to consider the Illustrator document mode if you are expecting placed color to match the original.

Your example illustration as RGB is somewhat out-of-gamut to FOGRA39 CMYK. If I place the illustration with the AdobeRGB profile embedded in a CMYK Illustrator document, out-of-gamut RGB color will be brought into the document’s assigned CMYK space’s gamut. Note that it is the document’s CMYK assignment (Coated FOGRA39) that is color managing the CMYK preview, and not the Color Settings Working CMYK space (US Web Coated SWOP):

If I place the Adobe RGB image in an RGB mode document I get a match. In this case the image has an embedded RGB profile, and it is used to color manage the RGB preview—it overrides the Illustrator document’s RGB assignment (Edit>Assign Profile...), and the Color Settings’ RGB Working Space both of which could be different.

[neilhirst]

Hi Rob

Thanks for taking the time to explain this.  I'm almost there...

If I'm understanding correctly it is the FOGRA profile that is dictating the duller colour in Illustrator. What I still don't understand is why the illustrator document reigns in the gamut to match the FOGRA profile but photoshop doesn't when both documents were created and viewed as CMYK and have the same ICC profiles. Also, why does the FOGRA profile dull the colours so much when the brighter colours from Photoshop are printable, at least on my Canon inkjet?

Thanks for your patience.

[Bob_Hallam]

In Photoshop you are viewing as RGB, because the image is RGB.  Use Command/Control Y to view as CMYK and the displays should match.   

[neilhirst]

Sorry Bob, in Photoshop Command/ Control Y doesn't change anything on my screen. Why would it be viewing in RGB?

[Bob_Hallam]

The file is an RGB file, so it should view as one in both places.    Both Illistrator and PS can use CMYK viewing Command Y on the Mac lets you use that view in Photoshop.   Since the image is RGB you are not actually using Fogra, but just using that in your document, so Illustrator uses the CMYK profile in your ducument to render it to screen whereas PS would not unless you use Cmooand Y to view through the CMYK profile in your settings.  

[rob day]

why the illustrator document reigns in the gamut to match the FOGRA profile but photoshop doesn't when both documents were created and viewed as CMYK and have the same ICC profiles.

Can you show a screen capture of the placed image selected in Illustrator with the Links panel showing?

Here I’ve made the conversion to CMYK in Photoshop, and the AI Links panel confirms the placed file is CMYK. There is no profile listed because my Illustrator Policy was set to Preserve Numbers (Ignore Linked Profiles). I’ve opened my Assign Profile dialog to confirm FOGRA39 is assigned to the AI document—in this case the document assignment is used not the Color Settings Working CMYK space.

[neilhirst]

Hi Rob

I put the screen grab together as yours but noticed I'd missed the header off. When looking at the header I saw your view was set to CMYK Overprint Preview, whearas mine is always set to GPU Preview...

If I set my view to Overprint Preview the colour brightens to match Photoshop.

I attach the screenshot of before changing the view mode anyway as there are a couple of differences which may or may not be significant.

Thanks

 

[rob day]

Also, it looks like you are pasting, use File>Place. You can see the paste is not bringing in the full Color Space info.

[NB, colourmanagement]

Hi Rob, 

Neilh writes

"When looking at the header I saw your [Rob's] view was set to CMYK Overprint Preview, whearas mine is always set to GPU Preview...
If I set my view to Overprint Preview the colour brightens to match Photoshop.."

Is that expected? 

Can you please explain it?

thanks

neilB

[rob day]

It seems like the problem might be with pasting an image rather than using File>Place...—with Paste the Link Info Color Space is empty and the object is embedded.

On OSX I get a randomly named tiff with no color info in the Link panel. Place:

Paste:

[neilhirst]

Yes Rob, I tried placing rather than pasting and it does fix the identification of the colour space. It doesn't seem to affect the appearance though. I tend mostly to avoid placing because I have random problems with the images coming in at lower resolutions which I guess is something I should follow up on another message board. 

As far as Neil B's question though, does this explain why my colours are brighter in Overprint Preview?

[rob day]

Can you share the AI file and image via your CC account or Dropbox?

[neilhirst]

Ai file link here and image attached.

https://shared-assets.adobe.com/link/ec8501ab-b3b3-4fb4-651c-6a882b7a3422

I have tried Placing, Dragging and Copy and pasting and each came in looking the same with an RGB(c2) Color Space. The image in the ai. file is embedded which loses the Colour Space info.

Thanks