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Hey, I have some issues that I can't handle myself anymore
Issues:
#Converting Cmyk to RGB Al File and embedded PNGs with transparency (illustrations).
#Export of RGB PDF that will print well on home printers
#RGB Al files with embedded PNGs with different profiles
I am preparing PDFs (ebooks) in Illustrator that are supposed to print well on home printers.
So far they have all been prepared in CMYK with a "Generic CMYK" profile similar to most of the illustrations embedded inside (PDF with transparency). I can see that other profiles, like P3, got tangled up there, because it's easy to missclick when exporting illustrations from Procreate.
The problem arose when I bought a new printer - Epson L8180 with ICM/ICC profile calibrated for a specific paper.
I learned that under home printers it should be PDF in RGB. And now trying to convert these Al files I can't figure it out.
Already a couple of times I hought I had this figured out, and it turns out that in printing come out errors like in the picture below.
Whether the toadstool comes out almost black or simply too dark differs in only one thing: whether I flatten the transparencies before starting the export.
Everything else is the same.
Does anyone perhaps have an idea what is the cause? My flow of dealing with Al file in CMYK to export and print PDF in RGB:
1. In the color setting in Al I have set:
• RGB workspace: Adobe RGB
• CMYK workspace: Generic CMYK (because I usually had illustrations and PDFs prepared with such a rofile)
• Color management policies: Convert to workspace for RGB and CMYK
• Conversion options: Adobe/Perceptual
2. I also assign a profile to the document: Adobe RGB
3. I open the Al file in CMYK - if it calls out that it has a different space, e.g. Fogra - I click to convert to workspace, while I also tried clicking "leave document profile/ignore workspace and the problems later were the same guess) -
4. I click File>Document Color Mode and change it to RGB. After that the PC thinks for a while
5. I select all obiecrs inside and click Edit>Edit colors> Convert to RGB
After that I do a PDF save - starting from "Best Quality" settings, I change to the oldest PDF format, transparency flattening I give to high,
Output: Adobre RGB - no warnings about other profiles in the file show up, so it looks ok.
I tested with and without embedding the profile, and in the end I can print such an almost black toadstool as in the picture at the bottom. This less black one (still a little too dark relative to the image on the monitor) was created when I did the transparency flattening manually before exporting.
l'm betting it's a mistake, because I guess the two variants shouldn't give such different print.
Is there any hope of fixing this, or would I have to do everything from scratch?
The printer on this ICC profile prints other PDF or JPG correctly. Help
1 Correct answer
After all these complications, I'm almost afraid to say it, but I think I've finally reached a solution.
Throughout this process, parts that shouldn't have moved were moving, causing test changes to produce completely scattered results.
What was the biggest problem?
The Preview app on Mac doesn't handle ICC profile printing correctly.
Most of my tests were conducted using this application.
I'm not sure if this is just my issue or a general problem.
The issue seems to be that prints from Preview may
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Looks like a lot of conversions. Do you need to flatten? Are the images of the toad stools linked or embedded? Are they RGB, sRGB or Adobe RGB?
It is hard to follow/predict what will happen at each point in your workflow with your colors.
I would setup a new sRGB document in Illustrator.
Place the images without conversion (Preserve Embedded Profiles).
Use grayscale black for text and keep the text on the top layer (if for some reason flattening needs to happen, it won't affect the text).
Don't flatten transparency.
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Hi @Ton Frederiks thank you for reading through all of this! Really appreciate that!
To answer in line:
> Looks like a lot of conversions.
Yes, unfortunately we have been following some approach that seemed to work for some time now, and we came up with it testing options we couldn't fully understand. But without missclicks it would be:
- Generic CMYK for all PNG exported from procreate
- Generic CMYK for the PDF
Unfortunatelly there were these missclicks, and we haven't been very careful about info dialogs. (I kind of inherited the problem 🙂 So now as I pay attention to warning dialog boxes, I noticed, that I sometimes have some Fogra profile assigned for older AI file. :< And in some there is Generic CMYK.
> Do you need to flatten?
I came up first with using PDF/X and then just flatener after I got some artefacts where transparency of PNG's overlaped. Also I got artefacts while trying to compress with online tool. I bet that was resulting from incorrect conversions. Tut Transparency flattening seemed to fix issue.
> Are the images of the toad stools linked or embedded? Are they RGB, sRGB or Adobe RGB?
I think they were PNG exported with Generic CMYK profile. We try to embed all objects.
> It is hard to follow/predict what will happen at each point in your workflow with your colors.
Yes, I'm looking for the way to clean up everything (need help with that if possible or info, that it is hopeless and I need to start over), and any tips for new, solid workflow.
> I would setup a new sRGB document in Illustrator.
What profile would you recommend to use? Adobe RGB?
What CMYK should I select, assyming that some obiects would be in CMYK (mostly Generic CMYK profile) ?
What PDF standard shall I select? Does it matter?
> Place the images without conversion (Preserve Embedded Profiles).
Can I copy them from old AI documents?
If yes, can I copy content of ardboards, or shall I go one by one?
>Use grayscale black for text and keep the text on the top layer (if for some reason flattening needs to happen, it won't affect the text).
>Don't flatten transparency.
Will try not to. I hope cleaning up profiles and conversion would prevent artifacts to happen again.
Thank you again for your answers and willingnes to help. If you could take a look at my questions above, it would definitely shed some more light on this.
Thanks!
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Hi Michal,
CMYK numbers are device dependend, the same numbers could give a different color on different printing devices, a generic CMYK does not mean very much unless you preview how it would look printed (soft proof).
PNG files are RGB only and can only have an RGB profile, but when embedded in a CMYK document, they are converted to the CMYK profile of that document. It is important that the PNG has a correct RGB profile attached, you can check that in Photoshop. What profile does Procreate attach to a PNG?
For eBooks, I would recommand sRGB. You cannot trust the color management capabilities of the devices that display the eBook and sRGB is the profile they will assume.
I would avoid any CMYK, eBooks are displayed and mostly consumed on RGB devices and when printed I would leave the conversion to the printer.
About copying from a CMYK document to an RGB document, if you have the original RGB versions of objects and images, it would be best to use them. Once placed into a CMYK document, they will have reduced color information, and pasting into RGB will not get them back.
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> PNG files are RGB only and can only have an RGB profile, but when embedded in a CMYK document, they are > converted to the CMYK profile of that document. It is important that the PNG has a correct RGB profile >attached, you can check that in Photoshop. What profile does Procreate attach to a PNG?
I was under impression, that it will have the profile of document, as document setup has been done with Generic CMYK profile, but I have never realised PNG can't have CMYK profile.
In Photoshop I can see, these source PNGs have "Display P3" profile attached, if I'm looking in a good place (please see screenshots attached)
> For eBooks, I would recommand sRGB. You cannot trust the color management capabilities of the devices that > display the eBook and sRGB is the profile they will assume.
Just to make sure - you mean sRGB IEC61966-2.1 ?
That could be a great thing for a new workflow, as this profile is also available in Procreate. (screenshot attached)
> I would avoid any CMYK, eBooks are displayed and mostly consumed on RGB devices and when printed I > would leave the conversion to the printer.
My ebooks are mostly for print, but I got informed by company who profiled paper, that these printers are RGB printers and they best work with RGB, so it's double-confirmed now 🙂 (Even if I could't believe at the begining 🙂 )
>About copying from a CMYK document to an RGB document, if you have the original RGB versions of objects >and images, it would be best to use them. Once placed into a CMYK document, they will have reduced color >information, and pasting into RGB will not get them back.
It makes sense. I will start over for a new ebook. Now, I'm thinking about te best way to convert/export the one I have almost finished, to make it compatible with as many devices as possible. I hope there are not many devices like my Epson. My low-cost Canon Pixma has been printing these for an year without any hesitation 🙂
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I started a new doc, with sRGB profile.
I set the rules to preserve profiles.
I imported and embeded the toad stools from original file (Display P3 profile). For the left one I left profile, for the right one I selected to convert color.
Print in the milddle is result of export with additional conversion to sRGB, print on Right had no conversion.
And print on tle left is toad stool printed directly from png to show colors it should have.
The rest of obiects were copied from old document. There was no flattening at all, I selected Acrobat 5 to keep transparency. Where did I make mistake as toad stools are still too dark on middle and right prints. Should I convert in Photoshop before embedding?
 
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What application did you use to print the one on the left?
It probably did no profile conversion and used the profile from the image.
Can you link the images when placed in Illustrator? Embedding converts them to the Document Color Space, linking them keeps their profile when saving as PDF.
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> What application did you use to print the one on the left?
> It probably did no profile conversion and used the profile from the image.
It was just "Previev" app from Mac OS.
>Can you link the images when placed in Illustrator?
>Embedding converts them to the Document Color Space,
>linking them keeps their profile when saving as PDF.
I will check and test this approach today/tomorrow.
No approach with embed were succesful, even if I started new file, converted toadstool png in PS to sRGB and choosen to keep profile embeding toadstool in Illustrator. I disabled any conversion on output and still got the same dark result as before.
Do I assume correctly, that this Display P3 profile is extremally difficult to convert correctly?
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I did the tests, and I start believe i'm cursed.
Started fresh file with sRGB, exported new illustrations from Procteate. At some point I even started over abd sketched this mushroom in the middle from scratch, to make sure it was created in sRGB from the begining.
Even spoder sRGB image gets too dark when processes to PDF(both embeded and linked versions).
I managed to get some color in the bottom line (please see a blue line) when I disabled my custom ICM profile and switched to control by printer. The best tesults are on "Standard" auto setting. Even this CMYK with P3 version is being printed more or less correctly on this setting ( the last print).
Is professional ICC profile a problem here?
 
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Sorry to hear that you still cannot get the expected result. I had hoped that linking the images, which causes the original profiles to be embedded in the PDF would have solved the problem. Did you print from Acrobat? Preview does not support all PDF features and probably uses the Apple CMM engine.
It is a complex matter with many steps where it can go wrong.
You may consider to post the problem on the Color Management Forum.
I can move this whole conversation over there if you want.
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Doesn' it seem to you like some sort of error? With these settings we applied it should just come correct, as there was no confersion at all abd original illustrations should print as they are printing from preview.
Shouldn't I reinstall Adobe suite for suspected errors?
Thank you for all your help and answers! I feally appreciate that. Nobody payed that much attention to my problem so far.
If you think Color Management forum will be a better fit for this problem, then yes, please.
Could you also tag someone you think can have some insights regarding that? I'm new here 🙂
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Hey @Ton Frederiks
New insight - I printed the CMYK verion of PDF from Acrobat and it went a lot better (still a bit to dark in comparison with TIFF, but a lot better then these almost-dark toadstools).
Does it add any useful insight to my question of how to prepare PDF that will print well on this printer among others?
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After all these complications, I'm almost afraid to say it, but I think I've finally reached a solution.
Throughout this process, parts that shouldn't have moved were moving, causing test changes to produce completely scattered results.
What was the biggest problem?
The Preview app on Mac doesn't handle ICC profile printing correctly.
Most of my tests were conducted using this application.
I'm not sure if this is just my issue or a general problem.
The issue seems to be that prints from Preview may use the "Absolute Colorimetric" rendering intent. When comparing Illustrator's soft proofing with different settings to the printout, the effect matched this conversion method, which gave terrible results here.
When printing from Firefox or even the free Acrobat, this problem doesn't occur.
Interestingly, my old files in Generic CMYK print quite well from Firefox, so that wasn't the issue.
There was an example where a TIFF without an embedded profile printed well using our profile - I don't have the energy to test whether this was printed from Preview or not, but it's possible that Preview prints single images correctly with a profile, while composite files (PDFs) don't. This might be related to the suspected "absolute colorimetric" rendering intent that seems to be incorrectly applied and probably buggy.
In any case, Firefox prints PDFs converted to sRGB well, both with and without an embedded color profile.
The Generic CMYK profile is weak, and its use throughout the process slightly distorts print colors, but it wasn't the cause of such severe problems (almost black toadstools).
Conclusions:
1. For printing with profiles, choose an application other than Preview, and generally start any troubleshooting by printing from 2-3 different applications. For example, Acrobat, browser, another editor. In my case, this would have probably saved about 150 test prints and around 10 sleepless nights combined XD
2. Color management: Avoid conversions throughout the process. Try to work with the same profiles and only convert to the target at the end if necessary. It's best to perform conversions either at the very beginning or end, if at all. This makes it easier to figure out where something might have gone wrong. If the output file needs to be universal, it's good to have all objects prepared with the same profile.
Remaining problem
Small font printing is still unsatisfactory (fonts are twice as thick as on Canon), but this is most likely due to the combination of water-based ink and uncoated paper.
Thank you @Ton Frederiks for your help. It was your sugestion to try printing from Acrobat.
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It is good to hear you've got it working. I am sorry I could not be of more help, but it is difficult to judge from a distance where things go wrong. Simplify the workflow, use a properly color managed app and avoid intermediate conversions is a good conclusion.
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