"Monitor RGB"

[MarkJan77]

Hi! I apologize in advance if my qestion is too simple for this forum however I cannot find the basic answer:

What means exactly the option "Monitor RGB" in proofing list of profiles (Adobe CS6 ext) ???

Thanks for help!

Marek

[TheDigitalDog]

Soft proof using your actual display profile. Turn Display Using Monitor Compensation off if you will.

[MarkJan77]

Thanks Andrew for quick responce!

Andrew Rodney wrote:

Soft proof using your actual display profile. Turn Display Using Monitor Compensation off if you will.

To be honest I am not finding "Display Using Monitor Compensation" option in the newest CS6...

And how to activate gamut wornings when "Monitor RGB" is chosen for softproofing? I am testing one poor screen and would like to do a simple test.

[gator soup]

in Photoshop

View> Proof Setup: Monitor RGB

with Monitor RGB checked there

Photoshop's View> Gamut Warning will be based on Monitor RGB

(Gamut Warning uses the profile checked in Proof Setup)

what is the point of your test (what are you trying to observe) i find most people are kornfused with Photoshop Soft Proofing until they figure it out

[MarkJan77]

gator soup wrote:

in Photoshop

View> Proof Setup: Monitor RGB

with Monitor RGB checked there

Photoshop's View> Gamut Warning will be based on Monitor RGB

(Gamut Warning uses the profile checked in Proof Setup)

what is the point of your test (what are you trying to observe) i find most people are kornfused with Photoshop Soft Proofing until they figure it out

The problem is that when Monitor RGB is selected in Proof Setup it is not possible to activate Gamut Warnings. I thought that proofing to my monitor would indicate which colors from sRGB space of my picture are not visible on my monitor (as it is poor laptop). I have been trying to make one "academic exercise" basing on http://damiensymonds.blogspot.com/2010/04/check-your-monitors-gamut.html

[D Fosse]

You need to uncheck "preserve RGB numbers".

This is the equivalent of convert to monitor RGB. Checked, it's the equivalent of assign.

[gator soup]

when Monitor RGB is selected in Proof Setup it is not possible to activate Gamut Warnings

toggle Proof Colors off

then View> Gamut Warning (the warning color highlights your out-of-gamut colors)

if you want to see the visual difference between your monitor space and sRGB

1. open a tagged sRGB document (use the embedded profile)
2. View> Proof Setup: Monitor RGB
3. toggle on/off

the color change is the difference between your Monitor space and sRGB

Soft Proof OFF, Photoshop is using "monitor compensation" (Photoshop is converting the Source colors to your monitor profile)

Soft Proof ON (Monitor RGB), Photoshop is sending your RGB 'numbers' straight through to the monitor uncompensated for...

[MarkJan77]

toggle Proof Colors off

then View> Gamut Warning (the warning color highlights your out-of-gamut colors)

if you want to see the visual difference between your monitor space and sRGB

1. open a tagged sRGB document (use the embedded profile)
2. View> Proof Setup: Monitor RGB
3. toggle on/off

the color change is the difference between your Monitor space and sRGB

This doesn't work in my Photoshop. When Monitor RGB is chosen for proof then Gamut Worning option is disabled

[D Fosse]

Basic display color management goes like this:

Document profile > Monitor profile.

That's it, it's no more complicated than that. Photoshop working space doesn't enter into it, that's just a default if there is no embedded profile in the document.

Technically, it goes like this:

Document profile > Lab/CIE XYZ > Monitor profile. 

The Lab/XYZ bit is the profile connection space; that's internal under the hood and not visible to the user. For proof, it's a little more complicated:

Document profile > Lab/XYZ > Proof profile > Lab/XYZ > Monitor profile. The extra round limits the gamut to the proof profile.

And I have to repeat this: No monitor ever made matches sRGB completely. It doesn't have to.

[MarkJan77]

twenty_one wrote:

Basic display color management goes like this:

Document profile > Monitor profile.

That's it, it's no more complicated than that. Photoshop working space doesn't enter into it, that's just a default if there is no embedded profile in the document.

Technically, it goes like this:

Document profile > Lab/CIE XYZ > Monitor profile. 

The Lab/XYZ bit is the profile connection space; that's internal under the hood and not visible to the user. For proof, it's a little more complicated:

Document profile > Lab/XYZ > Proof profile > Lab/XYZ > Monitor profile. The extra round limits the gamut to the proof profile.

And I have to repeat this: No monitor ever made matches sRGB completely. It doesn't have to.

Aparently I need to closely review my understanding of the color management... Thank you 21 !

[D Fosse]

When you do, keep in mind that it's all actually quite simple. A lot of people tend to overcomplicate it (none of those present here, I hasten to add), and in forums you often get answers such as "it's too complicated to explain here". That doesn't help any, it's just the signal to noise ratio rapidly deteriorating and adding to the general confusion. The mechanics may be complex, but in use it's very simple.

The profile connection space is a key concept. That's where all the numeric values in different profiles are defined as actual, specific colors. Lab 59/62/70 is a particular orangy red, the same everywhere. It translates to 217/85/20 in Adobe RGB, but 247/90/36 in the particular monitor profile I'm using here. That's how an Adobe RGB document displays on this particular monitor. The numbers would be different with another monitor.

And for proofing to sRGB on this monitor, it would go an extra round into sRGB to limit the gamut, and then into the monitor profile.

[MarkJan77]

Dear 21! It helped me a lot what you wrote:

Document profile > Lab/XYZ > Proof profile > Lab/XYZ > Monitor profile.

I think now I got it. I agree that the concept is quite simple. The problem is (according to what I noticed) that there is so many people on the web confusing different terms . For example when prople write  "RGB space" they use it often incorrectly. In fact they eather mean by that "RGB model" or more often "one of the color spaces derived from RGB model like sRGB or adobeRGB"

THANKS A LOT FOR HELP!

Mark

[station_two]

MarkJan77 wrote:

…The problem is that when Monitor RGB is selected in Proof Setup it is not possible to activate Gamut Warnings…

Just what kind of gamut warnings are you expecting in that situation?

Never mind, I'm just not following you at all.  Sorry. 

[station_two]

MarkJan77 wrote:

Thanks Andrew for quick responce!

Andrew Rodney wrote:

Soft proof using your actual display profile. Turn Display Using Monitor Compensation off if you will.

To be honest I am not finding "Display Using Monitor Compensation" option in the newest CS6…

Mark,

You may be misunderstanding guru Andrew Rodney's reply.

I'm pretty sure he means that using Monitor RGB is the same as disabling Photoshop's ability to use your calibrated monitor profile to compensate for your monitor's actual characteristics.

Try reading "Turn Display Using Monitor Compensation off, if you will", as "it's like turning off the use of monitor compensation, in other words".

It's effect is to leave you in complete ignorance of what your image acually looks like—    …which is why gator soup wonders what you're trying to accomplish.

[MarkJan77]

Mark,

You may be misunderstanding guru Andrew Rodney's reply.

I'm pretty sure he means that using Monitor RGB is the same as disabling Photoshop's ability to use your calibrated monitor profile to compensate for your monitor's actual characteristics.

Try reading "Turn Display Using Monitor Compensation off, if you will", as "it's like turning off the use of monitor compensation, in other words".

It's effect is to leave you in complete ignorance of what your image acually looks like—    …which is why gator soup wonders what you're trying to accomplish

Thanks for this hint! I thougt that it proofs to the actual ICC profile of my monitor (I was aware that it shouldn't indicate any visible difference on the screen but I thought it would enable gamut worning instead) but aparently this is not true. So what is the real usage of the "Monitor RGB" setting?

[MarkJan77]

using Monitor RGB is the same as disabling Photoshop's ability to use your calibrated monitor profile to compensate for your monitor's actual characteristics.

Well, I've just checked and unfortunatelly above is not true (from official ADOBE support):  http://help.adobe.com/en_US/creativesuite/cs/using/WS3F71DA01-0962-4b2e-B7FD-C956F8659BB3.html

" Monitor RGB (Photoshop and Illustrator) Creates a soft proof of RGB colors using your current monitor profile as the proof profile."

[station_two]

Your confusion stems from your not grasping the difference between a correctly calibrated and profiled monitor profile and your current monitor profile.

If your monitor profile is hosed or not accurate, when you soft proof with that current monitor profile, you have absolutely no idea what your image actually looks like when viewed by anybody else on a different, calibrated monitor.

From the same tech doc you quote:

  The Legacy Macintosh, Internet Standard, and Monitor RGB options assume that the simulated device will display your document without using color management. These options are unavailable for Lab or CMYK documents.

and

The usefulness of the chosen profile depends on how accurately it describes the device’s behavior. Often, custom profiles for specific paper and printer combinations create the most accurate soft proof.

[MarkJan77]

station_two wrote:

Your confusion stems from your not grasping the difference between a correctly calibrated and profiled monitor profile and your current monitor profile.

If your monitor profile is hosed or not accurate, when you soft proof with that current monitor profile, you have absolutely no idea what your image actually looks like when viewed by anybody else on a different, calibrated monitor.

Well, yes I think I am aware of the above. Correct me please if I am wrong in the way I understand the basic color management issues below. Lets consider only 4 following "steps":

(A) ORIGINAL DOCUMENT RGB

- R=0,G=255,B=0

|

V

(B) PHOTOSHOP COLOR WORKING SPACE OF THE DOCUMENT

- lets assume it is sRGB space. R=0,G=255,B=0 vales become a particular color from the sRGB space

|

V

(C') MONITOR WITH ITS PROFILE - POOR ONE (smaller than sRGB, bad gamma, etc...)

(C") MONITOR WITH ITS PROFILE - GOOD ONE (lets say 100% AdobeRGB, etc...) with installed ICC profile of C' in addition

|

V

(D) SOFT PROOF TO C'

- to a particular ICC profile of the poor & badly calibrated monitor C'

Basing on above if you please could  verify if the following concept is correct (it is only my interpretation and I don't know if I am correct):

When I softproof (D) to such poor RGB monitor (C') WITH OPTION OF GAMUT WARNINGS then Photoshop takes the original document (A), checks its profile (B) and compare it with the profile chosen for proofing (D). If gamut of this profile (C') is smaller than sRGB (B) than Photoshop indicates differences by gray collor. The fact that monitor (C') is not able to generate colors (B) corectly should not affect GAMUT WARNINGS option becasue gamut mishmash is resulted only by the difference of (B) and (D). If above is corect I should receive exactly the same result of Gamut Warnings (when proofing to C') no matter if I am using monitor C' or C".

Ok. Please, let me know if the above logic is correct or not. If not - please explain why. Thank you!

[station_two]

MarkJan77 wrote:

…Please, let me know if the above logic is correct or not. If not - please explain why…

Sorry, Mark.  I wouldn't know where to begin, as I can't make any sense of what you write.  I apologize for that.

See it this helps you:

http://www.gballard.net/psd/cmstheory.html

[MarkJan77]

See it this helps you:

http://www.gballard.net/psd/cmstheory.html

Thanks a lot! I will study it. If you know other valuable sites about color management I will be very pleased to look at them. Marek

[D Fosse]

Your specific question here has already been answered, but I assume this is connected to your other recent thread. So I just want to say this:

If you are using a laptop screen for image editing, the gamut of that screen compared to sRGB (which is what you're trying to find out, right?) is the least of your concerns. Laptop screens are usually cheap TN panels with a host of problems:

• Very limited viewing angle, to the point where the top of the screen is dark and the bottom washed out. Only a thin stripe across the center of the screen will be theoretically correct - if you can find it.

• Uneven illumination in general.

• Very poor highlight and shadow separation. Anything above 240-245 will appear white, anything below 10-15 will appear black.

• 6-bit color depth (with some tricks to simulate 8-bit). That means color and brightness banding/posterization.

In short, a laptop screen simply can't be trusted to be accurate. Calibration will improve it, but there's still a way to go. So don't spend too much energy on the gamut issue - it's a red herring (lovely expression BTW : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring )

In that article you linked to in the other thread, the author seems to consider display gamut the final word: "If you find that your monitor can't even adequately encompass the sRGB space, it's futile and dangerous to work in Adobe RGB". When I read something like that, I simply don't know where to start. I can only attribute it to extreme ignorance. Should you throw all that information out just because you happen to have a shitty monitor this month? That's ridiculous.

Don't trust everything you read on the web. Including this

[MarkJan77]

twenty_one wrote:

Your specific question here has already been answered, but I assume this is connected to your other recent thread. So I just want to say this:

If you are using a laptop screen for image editing, the gamut of that screen compared to sRGB (which is what you're trying to find out, right?) is the least of your concerns. Laptop screens are usually cheap TN panels with a host of problems:

• Very limited viewing angle, to the point where the top of the screen is dark and the bottom washed out. Only a thin stripe across the center of the screen will be theoretically correct - if you can find it.

• Uneven illumination in general.

• Very poor highlight and shadow separation. Anything above 240-245 will appear white, anything below 10-15 will appear black.

• 6-bit color depth (with some tricks to simulate 8-bit). That means color and brightness banding/posterization.

In short, a laptop screen simply can't be trusted to be accurate. Calibration will improve it, but there's still a way to go. So don't spend too much energy on the gamut issue - it's a red herring (lovely expression BTW : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring )

In that article you linked to in the other thread, the author seems to consider display gamut the final word: "If you find that your monitor can't even adequately encompass the sRGB space, it's futile and dangerous to work in Adobe RGB". When I read something like that, I simply don't know where to start. I can only attribute it to extreme ignorance. Should you throw all that information out just because you happen to have a ****** monitor this month? That's ridiculous.

Don't trust everything you read on the web. Including this

Hi 21! I hope i am not bothering too much with the subject Thanks for your valuable tips above!

I am trying to choose for buying a simple (not very expensive) sRGB monitor (but "friendly" to calibrate) and I am really surprised how difficult it is to find a model (maybe except EIZO or NEC) which would be certified as sRGB. If sRGB is a common standard why monitors don't follow it? EIZO & NEC are really only products appropriate for playing with images???

What is the minimum bit color depth reasonalble for un-professional photography?