Should I check the "Embed Colour Profile" box when saving as jpg/PDF?

[PennyLaneStationery]

I would be so grateful if somebody could tell me whether this box should or should not be checked. Is the answer the same whether I am saving as RGB or CMYK, should it always be checked, or never be checked? I can't find a clear answer on a google search!

At the moment, I do NOT check it if I am saving as CMYK as I then get a hazy film over the jpg's, like they are washed out. If I am saving as RGB then I DO check it.

I just would love to know the correct answer!

Thanks

[c.pfaffenbichler]

I was talking about an image, talking about more complex layouts let me ask: Which professional graphic designer or photographer would create a layout that includes text and other vector content in Photoshop?

I just noticed that the thread has been moved to the Color Management Forum, so you can please disregard that question.

[rob day]

I was talking about an image, talking about more complex layouts let me ask: Which professional graphic designer or photographer would create a layout that includes text and other vector content in Photoshop?

I think it is common for layered type effects that are difficult to achieve in InDesign–I do it all the time for titles. Obviously you wouldn’t set non-transparent body text in Photoshop.

I‘m not sure why my post is being misread—all I did was point out that with the PDF format (see the OP’s title) the PDF Preset’s Output Profile Inclusion Policy is used for profile embedding and not the Save dialog’s profile choice.

But professional printers should be expected to preflight that stuff before processing it further on my opinion.

All of my Photoshop files are placed in a layout usually as profiled RGB—any design or ad agency would be doing the same, it’s a very common workflow. A printer is never going to see the PS originals.

[c.pfaffenbichler]

… meaning the pixel image fragments in the pdf may not have embedded profiles but the pdf itself has an Output Intent.

[NB, colourmanagement net]

Sabre,

You've and a lot of advice about PDF saving etc, and CMYK profiles.

I hope that’s been helpful -

I have 3 questions for you though

then I can maybe give you a simple answer

1:

when you open the CMYK file you saved from Photoshop (with an embedded profile) you write that it has a "hazy film" over it when viewed.

Are you seeing that 'hazy' effect when you open in Photoshop - if not, in what application?

2:

what CMYK colour space are you working in?

[Here's how to find out: Unless you set the document up differently, or received it from outside that will be the default CMYK colourspace shown in edit/color settings.]

3:

where are your files going and in what form? e.g. Do you perhaps send a jpeg out to someone else for use in print?

I hope this helps

thanks

neil barstow, colourmanagement

[Bob_Hallam]

Always embed RGB and CMYK profiles.   Otherwise the files are mistery meat to a commercial printer.   Som commercial printers will require different CMYK conversions and it is very good for them to know that they have been supplied correctly converted CMYK files or not. 

[rob day]

Otherwise the files are mistery meat to a commercial printer.

Why assume the original Photoshop file is being provided to a printer? It's more likely going to be placed in a page layout document and exported to PDF before it gets to the printer.

If we make the assumption that the OP has communicated with someone and knows the output will be US Web Coated SWOP, the CMYK image placed in a layout with a matching US Web Coated SWOP assignment will export the same way with or without an embedded profile. A default PDF/X-4 or PDF/X-1a export of that layout would export both CMYK images as Document CMYK, and they would be listed in the final PDF/X as DeviceCMYK—no profile.

Again, if there's been no communication, the mistake would be to make a conversion to any CMYK space.

[Bob_Hallam]

This is a very easy assumption Rob.  The profile is for SWOP which is a commercial Web offset print profile.  The reciepient of that file will more than likely be a commercial printer.   Regardless of the route it takes, to get there it is always best to embed.  Embeding a profile provides the best way to display that file to reproduce the authors intent.     PDF formats and files are outside the scope of the OP's question and thus not included in my answer for that obvoious reason. 

[rob day]

The reciepient of that file will more than likely be a commercial printer.

I don't see why, I think most page layout is handled by design and ad agencies and not printers.

[Bob_Hallam]

IF the purpose of t file converted to an Offset SWOP profile is strictly for design purposes.  Your scenario works Rob.  The wild and crazy thought I have is that the separation is made for a good reason.  Not in error and more than likely from an RGB image.  That saved CMYK file should include the output intent.     Always...

[rob day]

the separation is made for a good reason.

I don‘t mean to be augmentative, but do you really think there is any advantage in making a conversion to SWOP without knowing the destination, and getting additional conversions somewhere downstream? If the files really are headed directly to the printer why not send profiled RGB and let the printer handle a single RGB to CMYK conversion to the correct space?

[Bob_Hallam]

.

I don‘t mean to be augmentative, but do you really think there is any advantage in making a conversion to SWOP without knowing the destination,

Seems argumentative to me Rob.  I never expoused any advantage to converting a file improperly. 

[benoitpigeon]

I agree with you. If the prepress house is withing the printing house, then it should be a convention by various departments to decide regarding embedding the profile with no second though and I think they should. If not, to me the file can end up anywhere around the globe like Hong Kong used to for books or Joe's wide format printer in Eastern Europe. Most likely I think they would strip any profile by default so embedding a custom profile has limited value.  I remember our scanning operator back 20 years ago who was having an extremely hard time with a profile that had been embedded in a way it was nearly impossible to strip. He figured it out eventually but stripping an unknown profile to me sounds safer. People also used to convert files back and forth between RGB and CMYK and I wonder what an embedded profile could do to help. What I would say however is that not embedding requires to use a profile that's been proven to work in many situations by different printers but also on various wide format equipment. Ultimately, a proof is always best and if the client is too cheap to pay for a proof then they have no clue what they are doing in the first place.

[NB, colourmanagement net]

@benoitpigeon "People also used to convert files back and forth between RGB and CMYK and I wonder what an embedded profile could do to help. " 

Well, converting back and forth is very poor practice but I think you are perhaps missing the point of "device independent" colour management because it helps identify document provenance.

I'll explain a bit in case anyone tries to follow your advice and perhaps trips up doing so. 

Without an ICC profile to describe the actual colour meaning of a documents pixel values those values are rather open to misinterpretation.  

Viewing on screen uses the document ICC profile (or, if none is present, presumes the default profile in color settings which may not be the same profile used when the document was created meaning appearance will be incorrect) .

Converting to another colour space requires the source and destination ICC profiles. 

In days of yore, some image setters in prepress would choke on an embedded profile, that's the only reason I can think of to remove an embedded profile. And that’s only safe practice if the document has been prepared or converted to the right CMYK colour space for the print process it's intended for. Personally I'd add the colourspace profile name to the filename if asked to strip the embedded ICC profile. 

Making a proof is indeed a great way to see how a document will print IF the proofer accurately represents the press process that will be used.

Preparing a document for such proof making still requires that it's converted to the right CMYK colourspace for the intended print process. Some proofers do read embedded ICC profiles and will convert files - but since that then does not necessarily represent press behaviour that option is generally off for CMYK documents. SO most proofers are set up to presume the correct press CMYK. 

Here's some more info on ICC profiles, their purposes and uses 

I hope this helps
neil barstow, colourmanagement net - adobe forum volunteer - co-author: 'getting colour right'
google me "neil barstow colourmanagement" for lots of free articles on colour management

[TheDigitalDog]

I'll add to the chorus that indeed, always embed the profile unless you want RGB or CMYK mystery meat. The numbers have no inherent meaning without those profiles. Previews will not necessarily be correctly rendered in color managed applications without such a profile.

[NB, colourmanagement net]

@PennyLaneStationery I say yes, always check it.

The embedded ICC profile provides users down the line with information about your intentions as to appearance. 

Say you save an Adobe RGB file with no embedded profile,

someone opens that file on a machine with Adobe's colour settings prefs set to sRGB and with  'Missing Profiles' - ask when opening disabled.

Now sRGB will be presumed as the document profile and the image will look totally different, quite desaturated. 

SOME prepress houses don't want embedded profiles, if that happens to you you need some more info about the required CMYK ICC colourspace so you can properly prepare the file before following that instruction. 

more here

I hope this helps
neil barstow, colourmanagement net - adobe forum volunteer - co-author: 'getting colour right'
google me "neil barstow colourmanagement" for lots of free articles on colour management

[ElizabethOOOG]

Yes if you're a print service, have a relationship and CMS Profile with service. Otherwise, you go through proofing stages with printer/device. Each device has a CMS profile; Screen, Apps, input devices, output devices and substrates. Color profiles for high-end output devices changes daily by service provider. Ask for proof with color targets. Look for gradients stepping, greyscale neutrality, check staturation targets. Learning to anticipate color requires a good relationship with device and years of practice to read the numbers and know hows those numbers should translate on any particlar substrate. A good start is knowing when the targets are off, then you know how good the print service is as well.

[NB, colourmanagement net]

@ElizabethOOOG The answer is actually yes, a document's ICC profile should be embedded - pretty much at all times for pretty much all users.

An image file needs an embedded profile so that it can be passed between users and services, that’s the point at which a conversion is perhaps made to their own device ICC profile. Without an embedded ICC profile, they'd have to guess what colourspace to convert from.

I hope this helps
neil barstow, colourmanagement net - adobe forum volunteer - co-author: 'getting colour right'
google me "neil barstow colourmanagement" for lots of free articles on colour management

[Bob_Hallam]

Always and a resounding yes! Without the embedded profile the files color appearance is not defined.  Always include the profile and all color managed software will display it as intended.  

[bsomberg]

I have a slightly different question.  It may have been answered in one of the responses, but I didn't see it.  I have a file which I converted to a specific CMYK profile (which I downloaded from my print service).  Now when I save as a jpg it hases if I want to embed and RBG color profile.  I am not sure what the question is for since it is a CMYK file or what to do.  Honestly, I am not sure it does very much at all because if I check the box and then reopen the file, it still has the CMYK profile.   Can someone please help with my confusion?  Thanks.