Spot Colors - Limitation Resolved In CC?

[erica40687420]

Has the 27 spot color limitation been resolved on the latest Adobe CC versions? In the past anything over 27 colors would automatically be assigned CMYK values and not hold.

[kglad]

<moved from cc services>

[Bob_Hallam]

Hmmm, This seems a reasonable limitation to me.  For what reason would require more than 27?

[Ton Frederiks]

To create a catalogue of spot colors?

[NB, colourmanagement]

BUT would that hypothetical catalogue with 27+ spot (special) colours actually be printed on a press with 27+ special colour units on it? 

Of course it could be fed through a press with 3 specials loaded 10 times, but that seems unlikely? 

However, maybe erica40687420 is working for Pantone

SO many designers forget that a real "spot colour" = a special colour on press. IMO, if that’s not what's happening and the "spots" used will me made out of CMYK process colours - then its better the user take control of that by working in the correct CMYK colourspace and using CMYK mixes to replace the desired "spots".

I hope this helps
neil barstow, colourmanagement net :: adobe forum volunteer
google me "neil barstow colourmanagement" for lots of free articles on colour management
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[Ton Frederiks]

BUT would that hypothetical catalogue with 27+ spot (special) colours actually be printed on a press with 27+ special colour units on it? 

Why would you need to print it?

And if you want to print it, you may do so on a press/printer that has more inks than the standard CMYK and is able to simulate the spot colors more accurately.

[NB, colourmanagement]

Hi Ton

   Why would you need to print it?

By defintion, I would suggest that 'Spot' colours are printed colours. So, to my mind, a catalogue of 'spot' colours would be a printed catalogue. 

I found this:

https://aura-print.com/uk/blog/post/what-is-spot-colour#:~:text=A%20spot%20colour%20is%20where,metal....

" What Is Spot Colour?

Using spot colour inks is an alternative to CMYK (cyan magenta yellow and black) printing. A spot colour is where a pre-mixed ink (such as a spot colour green) is used rather than a mix of yellow and blue as you would in CMYK printing. Spot colour process inks can be many different colours, and also include specialist inks such as metallics, fluorescents and clear varnishes. "

"Correct" priniting of spot colours for the final job is not a matter of simulation - it is literally a process that uses special individually mixed inks.

Of course proofing spot colour printing on a regular inkjet proofing system such as GMG colorproof has to be done by simulation and it is done very well by virtue of the massive gamut of modern inkjet printers. But that’s not how I would print a catalogue of 'spot' colours. It would be a catalogue of 'simulated spot' colours

I suspect the OP was wanting to use many spots in a design, probably to be printed on a normal press and in my mind that’s a recipe for disappointment. As you wrote some expanded gamut presses can do better at 'spot' simulation but you'l have undeestood my point by now, that such a process would not be 'spot' colour printing? 

back to my original point: 

SO many designers forget that a real "spot colour" = a special colour on press. IMO, if that’s not what's happening and the "spots" used will me made out of CMYK process colours - then it's better the user take control of that by working in the correct CMYK colourspace and using CMYK mixes to replace the desired "spots".

I hope this helps
neil barstow, colourmanagement net :: adobe forum volunteer
google me "neil barstow colourmanagement" for lots of free articles on colour management
[please only use the blue reply button at the top of the page, this maintains the original thread title and chronological order of posts]

[Ton Frederiks]

Hi Neil,

I know what a spot color is and that it is nonsense (and expensive) to try to print with 27 spots or more, but that is no good reason for that limitation.

See this old discussion and the reply by Dov Isaacs:

https://printplanet.com/threads/27-colors-limit-in-acrobat-9-output-preview-tool.7755/#post-90626

[Bob_Hallam]

Thanks for explaining the need.   I heartily agree that this is the correct way to produce files, but it does require workarounds.   To make this type of workflow work, elements can be created with spot colors and placed in Indesign.  This avoids the limitations of InDesigns color palets and uses the seperate PMS or Spot colors in each embedded file additively.  

[NB, colourmanagement]

Hi Ton

I wass already sure you knw what a spotcolour is.

In every reply I was focussed on the OP. 

We can get into expert discussions on here for sure and I like that Dov Isaacs post you referenced, but I wanted to clear things up for the OP.

I still think my point about using spots corrrectly is important. It's SO rare to meet a designer who understands how spots should be used.

In Dov's American football helmet analogy [with the possibility of CMYKOG or other enhanced gamut printing] I'm pretty sure Lab colours would have been a good choice. 

I hope this helps
neil barstow, colourmanagement net :: adobe forum volunteer
google me "neil barstow colourmanagement" for lots of free articles on colour management

[rob day]

Missed this post, but I’m not seeing the old limitation in InDesign 2020 or the latest AcrobatPro (the Dov link is from 2009). This InDesign file has 2340 Pantone Spots, and if I choose Separations in the Print Output dialog all the plates are listed:

The spot plates also export to a PDF/X-4, although the PDF with all 2340 spots crashes, if I try to show AcrobatPro’s Output Preview. Here’s 90 spots:

[Ton Frederiks]

Did you try Overprint preview or hit Print to get the separations?

Both InDesign an Illustrator give warnings and Acrobat shows 28 spot colors in the Output preview, but converts one to CMYK.

[rob day]

Hi @Ton Frederiks yes I see that in InDesign—but all 2350 spots are listed as plates in the Print>Output>Separations list, so I do seem to have the option of printing batches of 27 plates directly from ID. I’m not sure if @erica40687420  is trying to print more than 27 plates or is wondering if a document can contain more than 27 Spot Swatches.

In the latest AcrobatProDC I am seeing all of the 94 plates in my 90 spot color export, and if I print separations to a Postscript printer I don’t get any warnings. Are you checking in the latest AcrobatProDC?

Here’s the 94 color PDF:

https://shared-assets.adobe.com/link/05014c17-d204-4d06-7cf5-f27e740a62c9

[Ton Frederiks]

Yes I have the latest Acrobat.

Using your document it looks if all the spots are present in Output Preview.

 

But turning Spots Off or Process Off shows what is converted to CMYK

Process Off

 

 

[rob day]

I think that’s because you have the Show filter set to All, try setting it to Spot Color. This is what I get for Spot Color followed by Device CMYK:

[Ton Frederiks]

This is what I get when showing Spot colors and turning the spots off in the Output Preview.

It shows the spots converted to process.

 

[rob day]

Thanks, I had cancelled the separation print, if I let it print the extra plates are indeed blank. You would think Object Inspector would show the extra swatches as process, but all 90 inspect as ColorSpace: Separation, PANTONE.

There does seem to be a kludgy workaround from InDesign. I was able to Distill postscript separations in 2 batches and combine them in Acrobat to get more than 27 plates—I had to turn off the CMYK plates before saving the .ps file, so the text is on a spot black plate. This separated PDF has 51 plates, with the composite color on page 1:

https://shared-assets.adobe.com/link/d29d3ebc-2a94-4c49-765e-c0859dea6544

A rare usage for more than 27 spots could be high end screen printing. Richard Estes made screen prints with 100 + separations in the 70s—this show at the Portland Art Museum is amazing.

https://www.portlandmuseum.org/urbanlandscapes

[Ton Frederiks]

Thanks Rob for trying this. 

It would be useful to have support for more than 27 spot colors.

For the reason Dov gave (simulating them on devices that have more inks in addition to CMYK) and the high end example from Richard Estes that you gave, screenprinting artwork with even 128 colors. (thanks for the link to the exhibition)

With Dove gone, maybe Leonard Rosenthal @lrosenth can comment on why this limitation is still there.

[Leonard_Rosenthol]

The limitation is still there because, as noted by Dov and others, there are not any real reason for a document to contain that many spot colors and it gives us an opportunity to help educate users who were using spot colors incorrectly.

Also, as shown above, the limitation is throughout our authoring tools as well as Acrobat - so it would need to be addressed throughout the ecosystem - and unfortunately, that's easier said than done.

[Ton Frederiks]

Thanks Leonard, actually Dove (gave an example) and noted that there are valid use cases for using more than 27 spot colors in a document.

And the poor customers who are using 27 spot colors incorrectly will not be educated 😞

I understand that it is not an urgent problem and with limited resources won’t be fixed.

[rob day]

The limitation is still there because, as noted by Dov and others, there are not any real reason for a document to contain that many spot colors

That’s true for offset printing, but screen printing doesn’t have a press limitation. My Richard Estes example is the extreme, and I doubt there is much demand for that level of printing, but it does exist. I started as a fine art screen printer and would occasional work on editions with 40-50 colors.

[alans50513998]

There is the case in Large format digital inkjet printing where a RIP contains LAB definitions for various color libraries such as RAL, PANTONE or Chromaspot. If a person wanted to print an entire library on several different substrates, they wouldn't be able to do so since the majority of colors in those libraries would be converted to CMYK, thus breaking that workflow. This industry is often forgotten by decision makers, yet it thrives much more successfully than traditional analog print.

[61parker]

I think we are all guilty of thinking that what each of us do in our little slice of the world is the best and only way things should be done. HOWEVER as many here have pointed out here there ARE ABSOLUTELY use cases for Illustrator Documents with more the 27 spot colors. As indicated leaving spot colors intact will allow leveraging external RIPs to translate outputs that:

1) can take advantage of high-end inkjet output having many more inks than just CMYK and can match many more Pantone colors than what is possible within a CMYK Gamut alone.

2) As in our case we use high-end RIP software and specific printer profiles to then translate the identified spot colors into specific ECG separations for 6-color printing. In fact in our case it is practically impossible to create hundreds of elements with the proper EGC color builds manually, when those can be produced on the fly otherwise.

3) Even for CMYK output a similar reality exists, let's say within a complex pattern or illustration with many Pantone colors keeping those colors specified as Pantone allows for the conversion to be done on the fly within the RIP for any number of different Printer Profiles using the same source file saving TONs of time. 

I'm quite certain that there are SO many other similar examples within various industries that could make use of an expanded Spot Color capacity within Adobe Apps. In my career I see time and time again that Software Engineers do not adequately understand their user-base well enough to create the products that fully meet their needs, Adobe used to be much better at this, but as time has gone by not so much. Instead of assuming a need is borne out of ignorance assume it is a valid need and try to understand 1st - Adobe.

[rob day]

1) can take advantage of high-end inkjet output having many more inks than just CMYK and can match many more Pantone colors than what is possible within a CMYK Gamut alone.

Hi @61parker , The Pantone libraries (since CS6) are defined as Lab not CMYK color. Spot colors by definition are extra plate separations running custom inks on an offset press.

I have a large format inkjet composite printer running 7 colors (CcMmYKk) which has a larger gamut that CMYK offset printing. The way to get at the larger gamut is send the Lab color and let the RIP handle the conversion to CcMmYKk.

These Spot and Process defined colors have the same Lab values and output the same to my RIP.