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If anyone can offer any help or advice, this would be greatly appreciated!
Dreamweaver 2021(CC) bugs - feedback - errors - issues.
2021 is the current version, I see now download for 2024 :'(
Thanks,
SB-W
That is a stupid law and shouldn't be a thing, especially when "design" is involved!
...the second they encroach on art and design, knit picking font size and things like that, I have a huge huge problem with it!
By @SB-W
=========
If that's a hill you want to die on, be my guest.
Applause!!! Spoken like a designer. (image is AI created)
Real web developers speak a whole different language. We care about content and accessibility.
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I am forced to go back to dreamweaver, I tried phoenix code but phoenix code not behaving properly out of the box like dreamweaver does! So irritating! 😕
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I notice that you love table based layouts. The problem with tables is, they not only affect the semantics, they are unruly, especialy when they are nested.
The good part, CSS provides the same table-row-column, when using CSS-Grid. An even better, and easier to grasp, solution is to use Flexbox. Flexbox works in one direction at a time, either as a row or as a column, making it a one-dimensional layout tool as opposed to CSS-Grid which is two-dimensional.
To make it even easier. I use Bootstrap as my favourite layout and design framework. Bootstrap has the same basic concept as table-row-column, by using container-row-col where the container is used to horizontaly center the content, the row is a flex container and col is the flex item.
Have a look at the following code. Copy it and paste it into a new Dreamweaver document, resize the viewport and see what happens.
<!doctype html>
<html lang="en" class="h-100">
<head>
<base href="/">
<meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width, initial-scale=1, shrink-to-fit=no">
<meta charset="UTF-8">
<meta name="description" content="This is a Bootstrap Layout example">
<title>Bootstrap Layout</title>
<link rel="stylesheet" href="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/npm/bootstrap@5.3.3/dist/css/bootstrap.min.css" integrity="sha384-QWTKZyjpPEjISv5WaRU9OFeRpok6YctnYmDr5pNlyT2bRjXh0JMhjY6hW+ALEwIH" crossorigin="anonymous" />
</head>
<body id="example" class="d-flex flex-column h-100">
<header class="bg-warning-subtle">
<div class="container">
<h1 class="h5 text-center pt-2 pb-2">Header - for Business name and Navigational items</h1>
</div>
</header>
<main class="flex-grow-1">
<img class="img-fluid w-100" src="https://picsum.photos/id/20/640/200" alt="my image">
<div class="container py-5">
<div class="row align-items-center">
<div class="col">
<h2 class="h5 text-center">Main Content</h2>
<p>Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet consectetur adipisicing elit. Eos, officia perferendis incidunt nesciunt tempora blanditiis pariatur mollitia dolores, voluptate est obcaecati nostrum repellat dolor optio repudiandae deserunt, quis voluptatibus aliquid.</p>
<p>Dicta corrupti necessitatibus aut nam eos at nisi cupiditate debitis in voluptatum voluptas odio illum quisquam tempore reiciendis fuga alias dolores doloribus illo rerum sed, sunt qui! Veritatis, facere dolorem.</p>
<p>Molestiae ad repellat aspernatur labore similique dicta consequatur suscipit adipisci iste neque nesciunt modi exercitationem repudiandae nobis odio facilis hic amet voluptatem, perspiciatis at sequi! Sit aperiam alias quia voluptatum.</p>
</div>
<div class="col-12 col-md-3 order-first order-md-last">
<h3 class="h5 text-center">Sidepanel</h3>
<p class="text-center">A nice paragraph</p>
<hr class="d-md-none">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</main>
<footer class="bg-warning-subtle">
<div class="container text-center">
<h1 class="h5">Footer</h1>
</div>
</footer>
<script src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/npm/bootstrap@5.3.3/dist/js/bootstrap.bundle.min.js" integrity="sha384-YvpcrYf0tY3lHB60NNkmXc5s9fDVZLESaAA55NDzOxhy9GkcIdslK1eN7N6jIeHz" crossorigin="anonymous"></script>
</body>
</html>
Notice the sidebar appearing before the main content in smaller devices? And how responsive the design is? Notice the footer at the bottom of the page?
Then try to replicate this using HTML tables!
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Refer to my last reply.
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The latest version of Dreamweaver is 21.4 (released in May, 2024). See release notes below.
https://helpx.adobe.com/dreamweaver/release-notes.html
Dreamweaver is only minimally maintained now. No new features are planned, except for essential security updates. I use DW for routine coding, alongside an editor that is in active development, like VS Code or PHP Storm. See list below.
-- Codespaces (free, browser-based) - https://github.com/features/codespaces
-- Notepad++ (free) - https://notepad-plus-plus.org/
-- Nova (Mac only, formerly called Coda) - https://nova.app/
-- Pinegrow - https://pinegrow.com/
-- Sublime Text - http://www.sublimetext.com/
-- Visual Studio Code (free) - https://code.visualstudio.com/ + Live Preview Extension
-- Wappler ~ Visual Web App Builder - https://wappler.io/
Hope that helps.
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Most of the issues you describe are not reproducible on my machine. I work with valid, error-free code. My local site folder resides on my primary hard drive (C:\MySite).
HTML: https://validator.w3.org/
CSS: https://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
Make sure your computer meets the minimum CPU & GPU requirements. Most Creative Cloud apps work on:
- https://helpx.adobe.com/creative-cloud/system-requirements.html
- https://helpx.adobe.com/dreamweaver/system-requirements.html
Unusual Behavior? Try Restoring Preferences.
https://helpx.adobe.com/dreamweaver/kb/restore-preferences-dreamweaver.html
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Table based layouts are still valid with tailwind css and other solutions. Need to throw all that W3C crap out the window in all honesty! I do not care about semantics, accessibililty, etc! If I wanted to serve mobile compatability, I would still use tables with proper custom CSS adaptations. Mobile design should be an after thought. Unfortonately the industry did not move in this way! I rather serve m.domain.com as text base, than use media queries on my home page and try to kill 2 birds with 1 stone. I do not make websites for a userbase that would be using a reader or any reason to have <tbody> tags or even <div> tags. Very rarely. I build websites for me only! Besides, even large websites for large clients do not need <tbody> or div design or semantics, or accessability or any of that hogwash! Unless you are a big corporation serving millions, like a government website or something, it is irrelevant!
I have used divs for the last nearly 15 years and I am tired of them. Flex box is not supported by older browsers and require fixes to support IE9, etc, which some old people unfortonately still use! Looking to move away from DIVs! Dreamweaver is 2021, the latest updates are just bug fixes. Not an actual release. It is likely other parts of the program are instable and do not work properly because of this! Issues are probably not easily replicable either, as everyone has different machines, settings, workflows, etc. The software is clearly bugged on Macbook Pro M1 2021. I have dreamweaver on two machines. It is clearly a problem with dreamweaver as my Windows PC fresh install is doing it too and just today my dreamweaver on my Mac stopped applying source formatting no matter what I do and nothing has changed between today and yesterday! Apply Source Formatting works fine on DW 20.2.1(long term support), but not all the formatting issues when editing code work as they should with DW 2020. Basically the same as 2021, maybe slightly better. So clearly 2021(2024 update is bugged).
I have tried all other code editors and they are garbage compared to Dreamweaver. None of the other code editors work well out of the box. I am thinking of trying JetBrains webstorm now and moving away from Dreamweaver. Which means I will only need Photoshop and none of the other CC programs, which means I can probably save about $35/mo, give or take.
I will try restoring preferences, but I doubt this is it, as the behavior happens on my PC as well.
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I am not sure to whom you are addressing this outburst to. Maybe just to yourself? Because it does not affect the real web developer.
We are more concerned with legalities when a deaf or blind person cannot access our website. We even like to cater for mobile users with their 60% share of internet traffic. Furthermore, we like to assist search engines to find our site and let them easily find the <main> content of our site and find the links to our pages by using <nav>. <table> is another semantic element. It represents tabular data—that is, information presented in a two-dimensional table comprised of rows and columns of cells containing data.
So, go ahead and refuse entry to 60% of potential users and add to that, those that are diabled, that is, if they can find your website.
PS: Have you tried to replicate the simple layout that I presented above, using <table>?
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I am not having an outburst or refusing. Just tired of the industry pushing div layouts on me for the last 15 years, when tables are perfectly acceptable and valid for layouts! Not just tabular data!
The code looks something like this and it is a real thing!
Also, I think it is utterly bonkers you bring up legality and claim 'real web developer'. Define real? Lol. You can say those who work for Amazon are not real developers if that is the case lol.
It is illegal to make it non ADA accesible. Like it matters? Lol. 99.9% of websites are worse in terms of how good a design can look because we cater to and go out of our way to make it ADA accessible or kill 2 birds with 1 stone via media queries! Just look how big 16px font is or what ever the requirement is now! Lol. Plus I can't even use amazon.com or any website for that matter on my phone. It is literally impossible! I am always forced to visit the "desktop version" while on my phone or get up and walk to my computer! LOL. Which is hardly ADA accessible on such a small screen. It is a complete sham.
Any real web developers knows that for small projects, it really does not matter, because the largest companies do not do a good job at it!
But now I will have an outburst. Simple flat div based design with media queries, has ruined the whole entire web. No one uses complex bitmaps anymore and if they do it is rare. People who are capable of doing this on the mobile level with interaction are usually featured on FWA. Everything is vector based 100%. There use to be days when msn, etc all had fancy graphics. Now, gone. No thanks to catering to phones and the lesser ADA/semantics. It is a complete crap shoot. I should have never fallen for it and tried to simplify things and moved away from Photoshop style workflow. They killed web "design" with phones/media queries and killing Flash. Just look how long it fricking took for tools and other systems like Rive.App to catch up and have some of the same layerstyles as photoshop and workflows as Flash. Plus, you still have to use threeJS and such, and other external libraries or write your own. Not a nice thing what they have done to the web for the last 20 years, and I am glad tools are becoming more main stream and catching up to what they were back in the days of flash. I mean, you could have learned AE and exported to Canvas, but AE is a beast to learn, with tiny ui/text/fontsize by default, if you want to talk about accessibility. LOL.
This is like saying, you can't paint a picture without it meeting certain colors, contrast ratios, etc. Lol. Okay, my website is my canvas, there for the ADA guidelines do not apply to me. Just like Music is under free expression and do not have any. Like get out with this.
If we want to advance 'design' in the web space, we have to let go of all this semantic, anti table, ada bullcrap! 100%. Otherwise we will stay with div based, flat design with vectors displayed via media queries until the code advances enough to make vectors/divs look like BMPs easily and effortlessly.
These are just my views and I am definitely the minority. You do not have to agree with anything I say ;).
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...tables are perfectly acceptable and valid for layouts!
By @SB-W
===========
Until they're not. 🙄
Tables are NOT conducive to modern content accessibility standards. They make the web harder; not smarter for people.
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That is a stupid law and shouldn't be a thing, especially when "design" is involved!
I have hard enough time using Amazon.com, which meets standards and I am not even legally blind!
I understand having adutorial assistance via valid alt tags and markup, but the second they encroach on art and design, knit picking font size and things like that, I have a huge huge problem with it!
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That is a stupid law and shouldn't be a thing, especially when "design" is involved!
...the second they encroach on art and design, knit picking font size and things like that, I have a huge huge problem with it!
By @SB-W
=========
If that's a hill you want to die on, be my guest.
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I just want to say there are so many more issues that I did not do in the write-up; installing it on different computers did not help either. I am upset they are killing the Dreamweaver project. Very upset. I cannot stand VS code or React and I am kind of not a fan of the MVC bullet points.
and the answer is 2
You can't paint the Mona Lisa when her collar is on her neck; it needs to hang low. Or in the case of mobile design, when her right eyeball (mobile menu) is on her...may I say, left breast? BMPs only mix with vectors in static design or complex interactions/algorithms. Good web design uses a mix (vector and BMP, with the majority being the latter) or pure BMP. Otherwise, we are just typesetting. It never uses pure vector or even pure vector+mobile scalable javascript or webGL or threeJS. You need a mix of BMP+vector or even pure BMP as complex algorithms to render them as BMP so they work responsively, but that is very hard and takes a genius coder or AI. I've not seen 1 algorithm that renders paint/bmp/jpg effectively with vectors/vertices/etc.—it's a very complicated, unreal engine, and modern game development is only just now kind of getting there, and the web is a long way behind.
That is the exact thing mobile displays are trying to accomplish. One is a painting—the design/background of a page—and the other is moveable/responsive content. The two should not coincide. The only way this is a reality is in 3D space, and sometimes in highly interactive designs, but even then you need algorithms to handle the painting to make it seem real. It's really bad what the whole industry has become in favor of phones. Everything is like this - music production (vsts—no no no), movies, web design (vs. code—making the end user spin in circles, spending 2000 hours to custom it to their liking when it used to work out the box), social media (FB—doesn't need to use 3-4 languages, MVC, and compile down to C++—plus receives updates every day that neither ChatGPT nor Google can keep up with), every major website/app receives updates every day, I waste 1000 hours per year with tech problems, account problems, etc. Every industry where media is involved has turned this way, mostly because of phones, but also because I think those in power want to make things more convoluted when the solutions are so much simpler to build. Maybe for the backend its fine, like AI coding, but for the front end its so gross. I am sure at the higher levels of backend, AI coding is a nightmare right now. I think at the highest levels of front end, ai is kind of the same way; if you know what you are doing, you can just code something faster than ai can assist you in writing it. Like yeah, ai needs to come a long ways, but it won't help for 20 years or more. We're just going down another wrong path with AI, stepping further and further away from what static design, table designs, and flash use to provide so easily. The artists are being less and less artistic.
I gave up doing anything with art and just outsourced everything when we moved to media queries and divs. As well as killed flash for "security reasons," which is utter crap and a cop out to spread their capitalism. I do not understand how I am the only one on the planet who feels this way about the tech industry. It's not just web design; I've witnessed it in every industry out there, and I touch on a lot of industries that deal with media.
We will not be able to touch our artist side like we did in the early days until ai is fully automating everything, then I suspect we start building systems like we used to have in the early days that give us tools that are easier to express with—multitamberal midi (90s-200s) or real instruments (60s and prior) instead of VSTs. Then, only then, will you guys see how far back these changes are setting us. Assuming life extension is made, it may not even be realized for 1000 years or more how much we are losing ourselves, just so easily adapting to these new cool techs.
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Applause!!! Spoken like a designer. (image is AI created)
Real web developers speak a whole different language. We care about content and accessibility.
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That seems to be the way the industry is moving with rive.app and unicorn.app—low or no code solutions on the front end. Webflow adds too much bloat, and they are not as fun as typing code, nor are they very customizable or easy to work with. I need my split view code editor all the time. If I were a full-stack developer and not a designer, I would 100% use VS code with react and a mvc like nodeJS+express+mongo. Doing front end 'only' is very niche because sometimes people who code front end, their code is not easily implemented with React and other templating systems because its so poorly done, and the developer usually ends up just rewriting the whole thing anyways so they can be integrated into a MVC or even just React.js type environment, as they do not meet standards, etc. I did not make the transition to VS code in the early days. I do not regret the decision either. I would now have to spend hundreds of hours customizing my VS code for a workflow I enjoy. I am not a fan of adapting and problem solving like the best programmers are; my soul is, but I am not connected to my soul and brain at all due to life circumstances. That is also why I am not a good programmer, mostly a script kiddy who just copies and pastes from google/ai unless its html/css and basic front end js. For anything outside of beginner javascript and such themes in WordPress, I have to claude or google heavily. 😕
I will have to look into Wappler; can you define your own custom column system or are you locked into theirs? Can you make your own boiler plates? How is intellisense? inline editing? Are there snippets? I am not a fan of Bootstrap. I am also not a fan of no-code or low-code alternatives like this or Webflow are.
I would say at first glance Adobe should buy Wappler and include it in CC as a DW replacement, but I worry they would ruin it. My workflow would be much more affordable that way. I will probably take on an ambitious personal project in the next couple of months and give it a try.
Thanks for showing me wappler and the awesome reply,
SB-W
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This video shows how to create a navigation bar: https://youtu.be/UJPqMpsk3zc?si=o7BNLYmk1vRqRXrt
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I will have to look into Wappler; can you define your own custom column system or are you locked into theirs? Can you make your own boiler plates? How is intellisense? inline editing? Are there snippets? I am not a fan of Bootstrap. I am also not a fan of no-code or low-code alternatives like this or Webflow
By @SB-W
If you're not a fan of Bootstrap or no code/low code solutions then you are in good company, l"m not either. Since Wappler deploys Bootstrap as its principle css framework then l'm not sure it's the correct solution for you. As far as l know it doesn't yet support Tailwind. It also relies heavily on its own js framework "app connect" for interactive javascript based solutions. Unless you are going to take advantage of such options then you might question why you would use it.
For the right user its probably one of the better alternatives to explore if youre happy with using niche workflows and deploying prebuilt widgets.
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Dang, I am on my phone, so I am not sure how I can quote you. Forcing bootstrap will not work for me. 😢
Reading through your other posts now; too hard to manage all this on a tiny screen.
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I waste 1000 hours per year with tech problems, account problems, etc. Every industry where media is involved has turned this way, mostly because of phones, but also because I think those in power want to make things more convoluted when the solutions are so much simpler to build. Maybe for the backend its fine, like AI coding, but for the front end its so gross. I am sure at the higher levels of backend, AI coding is a nightmare right now.
By @SB-W
I agree with you in principle, things have become overly complex because new developers aren't willing to spend the time needed to understand what it is they are actually doing, hence we now have a lot of 'human robots' just deploying code, third part widgets etc written by someone else, rather than actually writing anything themselves. Frameworks and widgets killed web development, not phones. There is no 'right way' to do anything anymore, given the numerous number of options now available, which basically all do the same thing. Too many options killed web development or at the very least confused web developers to the point of mental exhaution, not phones.
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On my phone, so lots of typos, no proofing.
Phones killed front end web design though, which is connected to front end development and effects the decisions we make with the languages like using DIVs with media queries instead of static tables. Not arguing they killed front end development entirely, just that they created nasty workflows - programming with divs is disgusting, tables handle layouts so much better. From 2006-2024 - sites have looked like trash and only finally are we starting to have tools to catch up. Even then, they are all vector based, large posterboard text, no pixel perfectness. Which is not design in my opinion.
I do not even use Emmet Abbrevatio Expansion like when you type Lorem20 and press tab. I was much faster at prototyping with tables. Using Divs/Media queries and building for phones is not fun. I just can't subscribe to the idea of using React or Tailwind or Bootstrap or Foundation. Using tables for certain layout elements can sometimes help, but it will still be rooted in media queries, which kills code/design speed and expressibility for now.
As for front end web development built over backend systems. I have not been able to get into it. Wordpress handled my needs and you did not need to have strong backend to make Wordpress themes/plugins from scratch with the core URI. Free/paid Plugins handled what I needed most of the time. Just needed basic php/theme uri knowledge to build fairly custom solutions suitable for 90% of websites for small businesses. Now you can make themes using their block theming URI, which is even easier than core original URI. I don't agree with that at all. Though Wordpress in general is gross especially when it comes to using someone else's plugins/fixing errors, etc. VS code suffers from this too, it's much easier to install someone else's plugin/extension than code your own. There should be a widely adopted Wordpress competitor and there is not. Maybe you can argue it's one of the NodeJs CMS projects. I don't know. Also, WordPress is disgusting! I hate it. Not only is it slow, but I could ramble on with its issues. Programming for the front end for phones may have only set design back 20 years, and maybe actually a permanent reality now. 😢 Though it's hard to say if the effects are less permanent - than they are with backend development. Using no code solutions like unicorn.app or rive.app does not teach you much. I much rather take it back to the days of photoshop/tables and sometimes flash and have everyone stop adapting. Just marinate in that workflow for 20 years, before switching - speaking on front end only.
As for MVC or most modern backend web development, yea, I don't know, I bash it a lot as a front end designer/developer, but only because standard php/mysql got the job done and was more fun. This is my opinion and not grounded in reality. A lot of people love the way development has gone. The old ways also taught you a lot more about programming than copying and pasting code from your AI program/google. We use to write full projects without having to problem solve just because of how great code php/mysql and html/css combos were. Too much time these days is spent on Google or reading api pages, etc. Linux kind of suffers from the same issue - Why are there 1000 different open source distros? The core languages(c#/php) are all we need. There are thousands of options now it seems. We should not need frameworks, apis, wrappers, css libraries, I even hate font awesome. Font awesome is great for using simple icons but it's bloated as and a custom image would be better and easier to make more expressive without the bloat. Like a flame behind a social media icon with a mouse hover, swapping out the gif, doesn't even need font awesome, and Fa would just add bloat lol. Everyone also should not be using the same icons, there should be texture and realism to them in some projects. Music production suffers from the same problem - everyone uses the same pianos, snare drums, etc. Back to the main issue with development, Linux has suffered from as well with 1000s of distros. If it's open source, people should be able to get their crap together and make a major Mac and/or windows competitor for your average person. Still the community has not gotten together to make 1 solid out of the box solution. Introducing modular and ai could set us back 1000 years or more. I should be able to do music production or play video games out of the box on Linux, just as well as Mac/windows can and not have to google a custom distro/hack/setup to use a certain VST or play a certain video game. Too many members contributing to too many different projects. Just as, I should be able to code php out of the box, and not have the option to choose laravel because it has added features for me or NodeJs which is a hack of a system. If we united, we could create much more powerful systems and stronger main languages. I do not subscribe to the idea of apis as well. They are just tools and don't teach much about actual programming. Anyways, I can't really comment on modern or modular programming killing development, but based on what I've seen, I could agree with you there.
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We agree on quite a bit in regards to modern day development processes and solutions but l cant agree that divs are an issue or phones. If anything it was tables that were the issue, the more you had the requirement to nest tables within one another so the code became difficult to manage and problem solving table issues, errors became a nightmare, in my opinion.
l don't use any frameworks or third party widgets if l can avoid them as they are not strictly necessary. Frameworks, widgets etc were created to simplify the development process for so called developers who are just plain lazy, lacking the skill and knowledge of their profession. It may not all be their fault as quick and dirty solutions are sometimes a requirement by their pay masters to maximise company profit margins.
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Phones killed front end web design...
By @SB-W
=========
Rubbish.
Front-end development didn't die, it evolved. Skilled front-end developers know that regardless of which devices people use or how they interact with them, their apps must perform well for everyone.
Media is easier thanks to Google, YouTube, Apple, Vimeo, Spotify, TikTok & many more who cracked that nut. They know it's not a one-size or one-device-fits-all world anymore. They provide good user experiences on everything from phones, tablets & hybrids to home electronics, cars, airplanes and more.
Content diversity is great, I'm all for it. But to make content universally consumable requires creators & developers to conform to certain standards. Enter web APIs. APIs make our work smarter, not harder.
For those wanting to get into the weeds, go no further than the W3C and MDN websites. Every aspect of web standards are described in excruciating detail.
https://developer.mozilla.org/
Good luck.
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Hi @Nancy OShea,
As a proponent of WordPress, you more than others, know the meaning of a web application, as opposed to a web site.
Have a look at this web application, one of many more prominent web applications like the ones that you have mentioned.
WarrantyKeeper - Warranties | Simply Organised | Powerfully Accessed
This web application was created using Wappler by a personal friend of mine.
It features (among others):
1. A payment gateway using API's
2. A manifest
3. A service worker
4. Off-line functionality
5. Installation as an App on any device.
The application was created in a couple of months. This was made possible by using Wappler's low code environment and the Bootstrap framework, all while producing W3C compliant code. This allowed the developer to concentrate on substance rather than having to spend time thinking about and writing code.
Does this look like a so-called developer who is just plain lazy and lacking the skill and knowledge of their profession who uses quick and dirty solutions? This sort of statement can only be made by those who are ignorant of current day web development and solutions.
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Sweet.
I need that. My current shoebox "system" isn't pretty. 😝
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Does this look like a so-called developer who is just plain lazy and lacking the skill and knowledge of their profession who uses quick and dirty solutions? This sort of statement can only be made by those who are ignorant of current day web development and solutions.
By @BenPleysier
If they were skilled and knowledgable then they would have not needed any third party solutions. The fact that anyone can put a reasonably complex website together these days whilst working as a brick layer full time and a web developer part time does not make them skilled or knowledgable, it means they can press buttons...........its not phones or divs that killed web devlopement its solutions like what you use that killed it for the skilled and knowledgable
As they say 'you're part of the problem, not the answer'. Exactly what skills and knowledge are you using beyond a predefined selection process?