OT: Why do people cling to outdated web authoring software long beyond it's shelf-life?

[Nancy OShea]

At the risk of "soapboxing," let me just say that I'm thoroughly astounded by how many people are still attempting to use 10+ year old web authoring software in 2021.  Don't they know that the web is constantly & swiftly changing to help make the web a better place for everyone? 

Is it plain recklessness, blind ignorance, poverty or an unwillingness to accept change?  I don't know and frankly I don't care. There is no excuse for using obsolete web software.  There are plenty of viable alternatives available. 

Long ago, I stopped worrying about users of obsolete web browsers.  If someone can't upgrade to a modern web browser, that's their cross to bear; not mine.

Likewise, I feel the clock has run out on users of legacy Macromedia and Creative Suite products.  It's time to upgrade or step aside and let someone else with more web experience handle these projects now. 

My new mission is to stop coddling legacy product users.  Henceforth, I will do my utmost to get them "off the crack pipe" and onto more sensible solutions.  I don't expect to be thanked or congratulated.  Nor do I plan to win any popularity contests.  I'm doing this because the web is rife with bad players and it's the right thing to do.

Thanks for listening.

[osgood_]

I think the issue is a lot of contributors here are NOT professionals but somehow they have a necessity to undertake some minor web-development project/s infrequently, maybe for a personal project, a non-profit etc. They probably don't get paid and are doing it for a favour in most instances.  

I dont expect that category of consumer to know much about the web and its advances so they think the software/techniques that they have been using for 10+ years, for a few days a year, is still adequate and in a lot of cases it probably is if they dont know anything about web-development advanced techniques - most code created 10+ years ago will still show in a browser, be accessible on mobile or though not optimised for mobile.

I dont think this forum is the right place if you want to liaise with serious developers, its more like the Mickey Mouse web devlopment forum, sprinkled with a handful of more knowledgable contributors who get frustrated, obviously. 

You are on a mission to nowhere. The web has changed immeasurably over the last few years and its full of poor and bloated code now thanks to the rise and rise of automation, your wixs and webflows, squarespaces and frameworks etc. Rather than get frustrated I largely got out of the game.

[Nancy OShea]

Everyone has excuses for "doing whatever they want" but no matter.  I'm distancing myself from the long-standing farce that pretends to accept outdated ways which we know are not OK.  Obsolete web software belongs in a dumpster, not on people's desktops.  That goes for everyone — pros, amateurs, hobbyists and well-meaning volunteers. 

Now if one wants to keep using outdated image software, be my guest.  JPG and PNG bitmapps are not vitally important to how the web works and haven't changed much since their introduction in the 1990's.  But text-based SVG and lossless WebP images are better. 🙂

[AnnShelbourne]

One problem is that the Adobe Photoshop team working on the Export module have decided to drop the previously existing support for SVG in the new 2022 version of Ps; and neither is there any way to Save from Ps as a WebP.

[Nancy OShea]

...the Adobe Photoshop team working on the Export module have decided to drop the previously existing support for SVG in the new 2022 version of Ps; and neither is there any way to Save from Ps as a WebP.

By @AnnShelbourne

=========

1.  I've NEVER used Photoshop for SVG.  Raster images exported to SVG are TERRIBLE.  I'm glad the PS team had sense enough to remove that addon.  You need a vector app like Illustrator or Inkscape to create sharp, crisp vector graphics and then export them to SVG.

2. Get the free WebPShop plugin from Google Developers.  Copy it to your PS Plugins folder.  Restart PS.  It works a treat on Win or Mac! 😇

Instructions:

https://github.com/webmproject/WebPShop#installation

Use File > SaveAs or Save As Copy.  See screenshot.

[B i r n o u]

I share @osgood_'s vision and analysis.

It is true that for some participants in this forum, changing tools, but especially understanding the structural and fundamental change that this entails, can lead to a complex approach.

What to do?

Perhaps, in a first step, maybe simply help to solve, as well as possible and with the means available, the problem that led anyone to ask questions on this forum... whether it concerns Dreamweaver or not... in a second step, why not sketch a deeper answer by opening the hood, or lighter by directing them to online turnkey tools including WP, without being emotionally affected by the technology, whether it is futuristic or too old.

but in the end, it's up to everyone to refine their perspective, according to their needs, their means, and their context. and it is true that the tools offered by Adobe, as @AnnShelbourne points out, as well as a multitude of threads about the shortcomings of DW, add to the confusion, here on this particular forum.

[pziecina]

All I could think when I read this post was, 'well finally'.

I agree with Os, but I have to say that Dw has been 'outdated' for years. In many ways Dw CS6 is still better than any CC version, especially if one knows how to write extensions that can update code hints, (etc). That said adobe never wanted Dw, (and many others associated with Dw also).

I would be surprised if Dw gets more than just maintanance updates in the future, as its user base is the casual developer, and no serious developer, (who knows what they are doing) will pay for a CC subscription, (another possible reason for not using Dw), after all fireworks and Ps CS6 offer as much as any CC version when it comes to the web. So why pay for a CC subscription?

Assigning blame is pointless though, as the web has moved on faster than most people thought it would since mobile devices became available, and even though 'small and personal' web sites are still maintained and developed, they are no longer the real focus of internet development, (notice I said internet, and not web). Earning a living, (or making money, to put it bluntly) is what most people comming into web development now, are interested in, and that means developing for the internet, as a whole, and not just web sites for the publics use.

In fact I cannot see why anyone would build a web site themselves or pay someone to do so anymore. Small buisnesses have much easier and cheaper ways to get a web presence, and personal sites have facebook.

[BenPleysier]

Developers have long since dropped Dreamweaver and even designers are being weaned away from Dreamweaver.

[Nancy OShea]

As so often happens, the left leg & right leg are tap dancing to different songs. 😕

Adobe released their ExtendScript plugin for VS Code and totally ignored Brackets and Dreamweaver.

https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=Adobe.extendscript-debug

[Jon Fritz]

Q: Why do people cling to outdated web authoring software long beyond it's shelf-life?

A: Because it still works.

Aside from a couple small items that have been truly deprecated, removed and no longer function in browsers, like the <blink> tag or Flash video, the old ways still (while ugly, old, and outdated) work. Sites still render as expected using deprecated methods and "obsolete use css instead" atttributes.

As long as the old code is still rendered as expected by browsers, people are still going to keep using it.

It really is as simple as that.

If browsers would drop all the backward compatibility they have built in, people would be forced to move away from the old ways. If there were massive rendering issues with old doctypes and obsolete attributes, or giant intrusive "this website is coded with obsolete garbage" style messages popping up on every visit, the willingness to use archaicware would dissolve.

But there's not. 

Without that, people are still going to say "good enough" and keep plugging along with what they have, especially the hobbiests and single-site editors.

It's human nature, with boatloads of examples across all aspects of life.

[pziecina]

Hi Jon,

Lets be honest about browsers, if they did stop rendering old or invalid code, then at least half the web sites on the web would stop working. Which would not necessarily be a bad thing, as at least that many are probably 'zombie' sites anyway, that have no real visitors.

There was a 'question' asked about 5 years, regarding browsers and old html/css/javascript, and if they should stop supporting the use of, (the question was asked by the W3C), but it was decided that the whole point of the web, was that anything ever published, (and still available) should always be viewable, providing it did not use plug-ins or propriety code.

One of the questions I would like answered is, "did Nancy include Dw CC, in her obsolete authoring software list?". As for me it should be, due to the number of css properties not supported, (and dont get me started on html and javascript).

[Jon Fritz]

"There was a 'question' asked about 5 years, regarding browsers and old html/css/javascript, and if they should stop supporting the use of, (the question was asked by the W3C), but it was decided that the whole point of the web, was that anything ever published, (and still available) should always be viewable, providing it did not use plug-ins or propriety code."

Then the use of outdated methods will continue.

There's no way out of it, if browsers are going to allow it.

The Bandaid needs to be ripped off, but it sounds like nobody is willing to do it.

[pziecina]

I don't think outdated methods or valid outdated code is a real problem, unless the creator is charging someone.

The real problem is in-browser error correction, and if we could get rid of that then all the real problems would be solved. After all if someone does not want to use modern layout methods, then that is their prerogative, providing they are not being paid for what they are doing, or asking 'how do I do this, or what is wrong and why does it not display correctly.

[osgood_]

Many years ago I blamed the browsers for continuing to show poor code (whatever that is). The trouble is there are no rules and regulation, no standards, any old tom, dick or hairy can produce a website and publish it, that in itself is a deep routed problem. You get many more rogue builders than those that are good builders, similar in web-development, its rifle with a lot of poor quality operators. 

Matters have not been helped by the web-community itself as we are all at each other throats these days squabbling over which is the best workflow to follow. You could sit 5 web-developers down in a pub and they wouldnt understand what the other was talking about. You could ask 'when is a web-developer a web-developer, each knows very little, compared to what there is to know. Back in the day most of us old gits were singing from the same hymn sheet as there was little choice, all we used to argue about is what server technology was best - php, asp or cold fusion. It was more difficult to produce a website yourself because frameworks and automation, low-code etc didnt exist. Now we have a plethora of choices, many very bad. I dont think we have done ourselves any favours by adding confusion upon confusion and option upon option. The only winners are the developers of such workflows or products but even they are slowly strangling themselves as they try to get an ever increasing smaller slice of the pie. 

As far as Im concerned web-development has never been in a poorer state as it is right now and I see no-way back because as someone else in this thread said, its all about the money honey. Most have no pride in what they do and are preparded to pros-titute themselves to earn some money and profit out of someone elses, the clients mostly, ignorance.

The web itself is in dire need of a clean up. I mean come on Stackoverflow is showing code solutions posted 10+ years ago WTF and that is where co-pilot is sourcing many of its AI solutions, lmfao. Any solution more than 3 years old should be deleted, its outdated and is a source where poor code is coming from. Example we now have the javascript intersection-observer as a solution rather than using a solution that fires off a function every time the mouse scrolls, we have css grid to stack items, there's no need to use a relative/absolute workflow but most of these automated solutions and Google vidoes continue to use outdated solutions, hence why so much trash is being used and more alarmingly paid for!

Well for me the journey is almost at its end but for me also its very sad to see how its evolved through the years into something I really loathe now! 

[pziecina]

Sorry to disagree Os, but there are web standards and regulations.

The standards are published by the W3C, (I wonder how many developers even know who/what W3C is), as for regulations they are in the main legal requirements, such as accessibility, but again, how many people even know what are legal requirements? 

I remember a post by yourself, (sorry did not reply) regarding in-line css, which is not recommended by the W3C in their guide to web authoring standards. As far as authoring software goes, (which is what started this thread) Dw used to be one of the few editors that did enforce the standards and recommendations of the W3C, but that has not been the case for a long time.

a quick 'joke' - most people probably still think w3schools are part of the W3C, and that the code shown by them, is web standards, (much of it is not).

[osgood_]

What I mean is hardly any developers follow the standards as they are unenforceable! When something is unenforceable its meaningless, as most will turn a blind eye and they wont be penalised, either by the browser throwing a wobbly or financially.

I seem to remember W3C confirming you can use embedded css within html code (a surprise to me) but they might not recommend it. However, I'm seeing more and more examples of it being used and it works!  If it didn't work developers would not practice poor standards, if indeed it even is!

I seem to remember pretty much every man jack developer saying make sure you validate your code whilst I was in the minority saying dont take validation seriously.  I was way ahead of my time as no-one anymore mentions validation as most modern workflows will never validate!

[Nancy OShea]

"did Nancy include Dw CC, in her obsolete authoring software list?"

By @pziecina

=========

Hi Paula, nice to see you again.  😁

We know from this year's MAX roundtable that DW CC is only minimally maintained now.  Adobe has no new features planned other than incremental bug, security and compatibility updates.  So with no further innovation, DW CC has little future left.  But even in a lackluster state, it's way better than 10-18 year old dreck-ware.  

I like DW's File Management features (among other things) and continue to use it alongside other apps.  But when the time comes to scuttle the good ship DW,  I will have no trouble pivoting to other solutions — assuming I'm even in this racket then.  😄

[Nancy OShea]

Q: Why do people cling to outdated web authoring software long beyond it's shelf-life?

A: Because it still works.

By @Jon Fritz

=========

No.  Not anymore.  Most Muse sites are failing in one way or another. 

Legacy CS products won't install or run on Win 11, Catalina, Big Sur, Monterey or Apple M1 Chip computers.  Despite this, legacy product users expect Adobe to "fix" their problem.  I see the push back from a lot more users in the Creative Cloud and Download & Install forums where I field questions. 

[osgood_]

Legacy CS products won't install or run on Win 11, Catalina, Big Sur, Monterey or Apple M1 Chip computers.  Despite this, legacy product users expect Adobe to "fix" their problem.  I see the push back from a lot more users in the Creative Cloud and Download & Install forums where I field questions. 

By @Nancy OShea

I think the users you are addressing don't neccesarily have the finances to keep updating as web-development is a small part of what they do, so they hang on to older products as long as they can until they are forced to update to something else because old software won't run on their new computer any longer.

I agree anyone that is making substantial money out of web development should review their software and update it from time to time to keep relevent, after all it is their profession........probably spend more on their hobbies.

[Nancy OShea]

I think the users you are addressing don't necessarily have the finances to keep updating as web-development is a small part of what they do, so they hang on to older products as long as they can until they are forced to update to something else because old software won't run on their new computer any longer.

By @osgood_

==========

In my experience, the majority have the opposite problem of wanting to keep legacy CS x running on a shiny new M1  Apple Silicon Chip computer.  They expect a workaround for which of course there is none.   They can afford a new computer but then refuse to buy new software for it.  It's a matter of misplaced priorities and a grandiose sense of entitlement.

One woman in another forum recently said to me, "Adobe is unfair because they won't give me a new download that will work on my new Monterey MacBook Pro with an old license purchased 12 years ago."  I told her she was being unrealistic and left it that.  But insanity such as this prevails... 

If someone is experiencing true financial hardship, I deeply sympathize.  There are free alternatives they can use.

[osgood_]

==========

In my experience, the majority have the opposite problem of wanting to keeping legacy CS x running on a shiny new M1  Apple Silicon Chip computer.  They expect a workaround for which of course there is none.   They can afford a new computer but then refuse to buy new software for it.  It's a matter of misplaced priorities and a grandiose sense of entitlement.

By @Nancy OShea

Ever seen any youtube devs using or used to use Sublime Text, who make £1000s a month showing their tutorials and selling their Udemy courses, and up pops the 'Maybe you would like to buy this bit of software'  box?

Its a human thing, if you can get something for nothing you will!

[BenPleysier]

OT: Why do people cling to outdated web authoring software long beyond it's shelf-life?

Could it be that these are the current users of Dreamweaver? I come across many ex-Dreamers on the other forum.

[Nancy OShea]

Could it be that these are the current users of Dreamweaver?

By @BenPleysier

=======

Could be.  And if that's the case, I will implore them to find other solutions they can work with.  If not newer Dreamweaver CC, then something else. 

[Liam Dilley]

Your right on all points Nancy but I know the reasons...

Legacy browsers:

Not so much of an issue these days and going forward, especially with mostly mobile use there as well but if your building online applications or internal sollutions for business you still have to consider the businesses computer setup and even now, many big companies are 2-3 windows versions behind and network set to lock out installing software and running IE11 or even 10 and some cases 9 as the only browser.

The bigger problem is gathering data, not just to sell or use for profile in a "facebook" way but just to have a persona for a website or application to know who is doing what and what is working with your site or not to change and update and improve. Most browsers are increasingly preventing you getting the information you need to do digital marketing and just improving the website/application.

In terms of develoeprs not switching software:

In general I get it. You have a workflow and you can be busy so learning new software and workflows and switching to it could take people time or just the setup, the change, the tools you may need to change too as well as a result can spiral a little but so it can be overwellming for some - so they dont, and others they just do not think they can afford the time too.

There is a large chunk though, especially for me in the Adobe space in terms of coding and web are stuck in the past using software Adobe are continuing and while adding modern features are still aimed at old concepts and old methods.

Seeing some of the Iframe chat earlier in the year and some of the CSS answers to some questions in the Dreamweaver forum was quite "eeek" for me for example.

But change can be good but the transition can be challinging for many.

It is 100% annoying for the transition for me than anything else but I am always looking at the optimum workflow in all things. Same with hardware, best mouse that will tick the boxes, I am looking at change with mechanical keyboards, which switches will suit my coding workflow the best and so on. I always want to be optimal.

[Nancy OShea]

...many big companies are 2-3 windows versions behind and network set to lock out installing software and running IE11 or even 10 and some cases 9 as the only browser.

By @Liam Dilley

============

To your point Liam, Enterprise users have a lot more latittude.  Their IT dept can package legacy versions for them if that what's needed.   I rarely see Enterprise users here, though.