Time to Move from ASP

Report · Apr 21, 2007

I have used ASP/VB with Dreamweaver for 7 or 8 years and have become productive at building dyanmic, database-driven sites using WA, InterAkt and other extensions. I have dreaded the day of moving from ASP for some time, but I am starting to think that it may be better to do this sooner than later. I contineu to see other technologies progress, and I feel that I may be missing out by not moving.

My inclination was to stick with MS and ASP.NET. Unfortunately, my experience left me rethinking that decision. Yes, ASP.NET 2 is light years ahead of ASP.NET 1.1, but in terms of real world productivity (for non-Enterprise level sites), I found ASP.NET to be mostly a stumbling block to productivity. My friend keeps telling me to stick with it and I’ll “get it” at some point… but I just don’t think I have the perseverance or desire to “get it.” I don’t work for a large company, or work with a development team. I am a small, but busy one man shop that focuses on small and medium sized business websites. ASP.NET just seems like overkill in a big way for me.

I was hoping Dreamweaver CS3 would have some great integration with ASP.NET that might change my opinion. That, of course, didn’t happen. The more I consider the issue, PHP may be the wise choice for me. From the start, I have the benefit of most of my extensions being compatible with PHP. A big plus. I can continue using Dreamweaver as my primary development tool. Another big plus. My concerns are whether it makes sense to run PHP on IIS and also, whether I am able to continue using MS SQL Server for development, or whether I would find MySQL to be the path of least resistance.

I would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions you may have as well as any unforeseen problems I may not have considered.

Thank you in advance.

Report · Apr 22, 2007

brianmisty wrote:
> My concerns are whether it makes sense to run PHP on IIS and also,
> whether I am able to continue using MS SQL Server for development, or whether I
> would find MySQL to be the path of least resistance.

Apache is the web server of choice for PHP, but it runs perfectly well
on IIS. The main problem with running PHP on IIS is that most IIS
installations are in CGI mode, which means that a small number of
features are not available to you. In most cases, this is an
inconvenience, not a showstopper.

PHP supports MS SQL Server, but the PHP server behaviors in Dreamweaver
work with MySQL only.

--
David Powers, Adobe Community Expert
Author, "Foundation PHP for Dreamweaver 8" (friends of ED)
Author, "PHP Solutions" (friends of ED)
http://foundationphp.com/

Report · Apr 22, 2007

"David Powers" <david@example.com> wrote in message
news:f0f79l$4ma$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Apache is the web server of choice for PHP, but it runs perfectly well on
> IIS. The main problem with running PHP on IIS is that most IIS
> installations are in CGI mode, which means that a small number of features
> are not available to you. In most cases, this is an inconvenience, not a
> showstopper.

Running in CGI mode also means inferior performances and much higher CPU
usage.

The bottom line s that if you want to move into PHP, you better find a good
Unix/Apache host and move away from the typical Windows/IIS hosts.

--
----------------------------
Massimo Foti, web-programmer for hire
Tools for ColdFusion and Dreamweaver developers:
http://www.massimocorner.com
----------------------------

Report · Apr 22, 2007

Massimo Foti wrote:
> Running in CGI mode also means inferior performances and much higher CPU
> usage.
>
> The bottom line s that if you want to move into PHP, you better find a good
> Unix/Apache host and move away from the typical Windows/IIS hosts.

Agreed. I presumed that the OP was asking about IIS for the benefit of
local testing. Using IIS would permit continued maintenance of ASP sites
while making the transition to PHP.

--
David Powers, Adobe Community Expert
Author, "Foundation PHP for Dreamweaver 8" (friends of ED)
Author, "PHP Solutions" (friends of ED)
http://foundationphp.com/

Report · Apr 22, 2007

"David Powers" <david@example.com> wrote in message
news:f0fd1p$adv$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>> The bottom line s that if you want to move into PHP, you better find a
>> good Unix/Apache host and move away from the typical Windows/IIS hosts.
>
> Agreed. I presumed that the OP was asking about IIS for the benefit of
> local testing. Using IIS would permit continued maintenance of ASP sites
> while making the transition to PHP.

I would prefer to keep both IIS and Apache running at the sae time (on
different ports). But using only IIS locally isn't too bad.

Massimo

Report · Apr 22, 2007

Why the rush to move away from asp? It is still (and will continue to be)
well supported.

Personally, I would stick with asp and focus on getting to grips with .net2.
Make the transition when you feel you are ready.

Good luck in whichever path you decide to take.

"brianmisty" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:f0eiq4$bjh$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>I have used ASP/VB with Dreamweaver for 7 or 8 years and have become
>productive
> at building dyanmic, database-driven sites using WA, InterAkt and other
> extensions. I have dreaded the day of moving from ASP for some time, but I
> am
> starting to think that it may be better to do this sooner than later. I
> contineu to see other technologies progress, and I feel that I may be
> missing
> out by not moving.
>
> My inclination was to stick with MS and ASP.NET. Unfortunately, my
> experience
> left me rethinking that decision. Yes, ASP.NET 2 is light years ahead of
> ASP.NET 1.1, but in terms of real world productivity (for non-Enterprise
> level
> sites), I found ASP.NET to be mostly a stumbling block to productivity.
> My
> friend keeps telling me to stick with it and I?ll ?get it? at some point?
> but I
> just don?t think I have the perseverance or desire to ?get it.? I don?t
> work
> for a large company, or work with a development team. I am a small, but
> busy
> one man shop that focuses on small and medium sized business websites.
> ASP.NET
> just seems like overkill in a big way for me.
>
> I was hoping Dreamweaver CS3 would have some great integration with
> ASP.NET
> that might change my opinion. That, of course, didn?t happen. The more I
> consider the issue, PHP may be the wise choice for me. From the start, I
> have
> the benefit of most of my extensions being compatible with PHP. A big
> plus. I
> can continue using Dreamweaver as my primary development tool. Another
> big
> plus. My concerns are whether it makes sense to run PHP on IIS and also,
> whether I am able to continue using MS SQL Server for development, or
> whether I
> would find MySQL to be the path of least resistance.
>
> I would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions you may have as well as any
> unforeseen problems I may not have considered.
>
> Thank you in advance.
>
>

Report · Apr 22, 2007

Pat Shaw wrote:
> Why the rush to move away from asp? It is still (and will continue to be)
> well supported.

I'm sure that ASP will be around for a long time, but how long? The
problem of sticking with ASP is that you're using a technology that's
not moving forward. When the day eventually comes that you want to move,
it's not like buying a new car and just driving it off. It's more like
learning to walk again after an accident.

> Personally, I would stick with asp and focus on getting to grips with .net2.
> Make the transition when you feel you are ready.

I'm sure that's sensible advice for many people already at home with
ASP. I made the move from ASP to PHP about five years ago because I
found ASP difficult to use. I also needed to move to a new server, so I
decided to give PHP a try. I personally found PHP a lot easier to use.
If the OP has encountered difficulties with .NET, it might be worth
giving PHP a trial run.

--
David Powers, Adobe Community Expert
Author, "Foundation PHP for Dreamweaver 8" (friends of ED)
Author, "PHP Solutions" (friends of ED)
http://foundationphp.com/

Report · Apr 22, 2007

I am an ASP.NET C# developer, not a php developer, but I have played around with PHP. For the your situation I would recommend using PHP. Your are not building enterprise level applications, and your are a one man shop. PHP is a very fast web development language that will fit well with your needs. My situation is different, I am a software engineer that works in a large development team, and build enterprise level web and OS applications, so of course C# is the choice for me.

Report · Apr 22, 2007

Quote from Scott Guthrie - "Classic ASP ships with Windows, and so is
covered by the standard Windows support model (10 years from the date the OS
ships). ASP is included in Longhorn Server, and there are no plans to remove
it in the future. This means it will be supported until at least 2017 - but
likely quite a bit longer."

ASP 3 is a fully rounded product, it's been around for about 8 years. The
product will never move forward, there's no significance in that and
shouldn't deter developers purely on that point. My own view is that
development is largely down to personal perferences and I see no reason
deveopers to continue learning/using ASP.

--
Jules
http://www.charon.co.uk/charoncart
Charon Cart 3
Shopping Cart Extension for Dreamweaver MX/MX 2004

Report · Apr 22, 2007

Julian Roberts wrote:
> ASP 3 is a fully rounded product, it's been around for about 8 years. The
> product will never move forward, there's no significance in that and
> shouldn't deter developers purely on that point. My own view is that
> development is largely down to personal perferences and I see no reason
> deveopers to continue learning/using ASP.

That seems to be a contradiction in terms. Unless, of course, what you
meant to say was "I see no reason for developers *not* to continue
learning/using ASP."

For someone who has already learned it, continuing to use it is probably
OK. On the other hand, starting to learn it now sounds an unwise
strategy. This is not an anti-Microsoft, pro-PHP argument. Simply that,
in a rapidly developing field such as the Web, it's not a good idea to
learn from scratch a technology that is unlikely to develop any further.

--
David Powers, Adobe Community Expert
Author, "Foundation PHP for Dreamweaver 8" (friends of ED)
Author, "PHP Solutions" (friends of ED)
http://foundationphp.com/

Report · Apr 22, 2007

Thank you for the advice. I am not really in a "rush" to move from ASP.
This has been in my thought process since ASP.NET appeared. Watching the
continued development of ASP.NET and PHP over the years has just made me
realize that I should switch to gain the benefits of being with a community
that continues to advance. The ASP sites and third-party applications are
fading from the scene and being converted/upgraded to ASP.NET. ASP is still
a great platform for web development, and will no doubt continue to be
around for many years, but it clearly is past the development cycle from MS
and its own community.

"Pat Shaw" <pat@nomail.com> wrote in message
news:f0fp9r$nrv$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Why the rush to move away from asp? It is still (and will continue to be)
> well supported.
>
> Personally, I would stick with asp and focus on getting to grips with
> .net2. Make the transition when you feel you are ready.
>
> Good luck in whichever path you decide to take.
>
> "brianmisty" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
> news:f0eiq4$bjh$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>>I have used ASP/VB with Dreamweaver for 7 or 8 years and have become
>>productive
>> at building dyanmic, database-driven sites using WA, InterAkt and other
>> extensions. I have dreaded the day of moving from ASP for some time, but
>> I am
>> starting to think that it may be better to do this sooner than later. I
>> contineu to see other technologies progress, and I feel that I may be
>> missing
>> out by not moving.
>>
>> My inclination was to stick with MS and ASP.NET. Unfortunately, my
>> experience
>> left me rethinking that decision. Yes, ASP.NET 2 is light years ahead of
>> ASP.NET 1.1, but in terms of real world productivity (for non-Enterprise
>> level
>> sites), I found ASP.NET to be mostly a stumbling block to productivity.
>> My
>> friend keeps telling me to stick with it and I?ll ?get it? at some point?
>> but I
>> just don?t think I have the perseverance or desire to ?get it.? I don?t
>> work
>> for a large company, or work with a development team. I am a small, but
>> busy
>> one man shop that focuses on small and medium sized business websites.
>> ASP.NET
>> just seems like overkill in a big way for me.
>>
>> I was hoping Dreamweaver CS3 would have some great integration with
>> ASP.NET
>> that might change my opinion. That, of course, didn?t happen. The more
>> I
>> consider the issue, PHP may be the wise choice for me. From the start,
>> I have
>> the benefit of most of my extensions being compatible with PHP. A big
>> plus. I
>> can continue using Dreamweaver as my primary development tool. Another
>> big
>> plus. My concerns are whether it makes sense to run PHP on IIS and also,
>> whether I am able to continue using MS SQL Server for development, or
>> whether I
>> would find MySQL to be the path of least resistance.
>>
>> I would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions you may have as well as
>> any
>> unforeseen problems I may not have considered.
>>
>> Thank you in advance.
>>
>>
>
>

Report · Apr 22, 2007

Not to sound too ignorant here, but I am already running a Windows 2003 Server. Can Apache run alongside of IIS? If so, is this wise?

Report · Apr 22, 2007

brianmisty wrote:
> Not to sound too ignorant here, but I am already running a Windows 2003 Server. Can Apache run alongside of IIS? If so, is this wise?

Yes, as long as they're listening on separate ports. It's common to have
Apache on 80 and IIS on 8080, or vice versa. Is it wise? I have never
encountered any problems. In fact, at one stage I had IIS, Apache, and
ColdFusion all running on the same machine at the same time without any
noticeable problems.

--
David Powers, Adobe Community Expert
Author, "Foundation PHP for Dreamweaver 8" (friends of ED)
Author, "PHP Solutions" (friends of ED)
http://foundationphp.com/

Report · Apr 22, 2007

Yeah, what I meant was that the decision to use/learn ASP can't be made
purely on the fact that ASP won't be developed further. There's a whole host
of other reasons, like personal preferences and circumstances. For example,
a student looking for a career in IT might want to dive straight into .NET.
But for those that just dabble in development, ASP might be just fine.

Not sure which direction PHP is taking. Will it be radically different from
what it is now.

--
Jules
http://www.charon.co.uk/charoncart
Charon Cart 3
Shopping Cart Extension for Dreamweaver MX/MX 2004

David Powers wrote:
> Julian Roberts wrote:
>> ASP 3 is a fully rounded product, it's been around for about 8 years. The
>> product will never move forward, there's no significance in that and
>> shouldn't deter developers purely on that point. My own view is that
>> development is largely down to personal perferences and I see no reason
>> deveopers to continue learning/using ASP.
>
> That seems to be a contradiction in terms. Unless, of course, what you
> meant to say was "I see no reason for developers *not* to continue
> learning/using ASP."
>
> For someone who has already learned it, continuing to use it is probably
> OK. On the other hand, starting to learn it now sounds an unwise
> strategy. This is not an anti-Microsoft, pro-PHP argument. Simply that,
> in a rapidly developing field such as the Web, it's not a good idea to
> learn from scratch a technology that is unlikely to develop any further.

Report · Apr 22, 2007

Julian Roberts wrote:
> Not sure which direction PHP is taking. Will it be radically different from
> what it is now.

No, I don't think it will be radically different from now, although it
is developing. The advantage that PHP appears to have over .NET is that
it's a procedural language with strong support for OOP (at least in PHP
5). This makes it easy to create simple scripts for simple tasks without
a steep learning curve, but it's equally suited to large projects.

Perhaps where .NET has the edge over PHP is that Microsoft tools reduce
the need for hand coding. I keep on promising myself to learn .NET one
day, but there haven't been enough hours in the day to combine it with
all the other things I want/need to do.

--
David Powers, Adobe Community Expert
Author, "Foundation PHP for Dreamweaver 8" (friends of ED)
Author, "PHP Solutions" (friends of ED)
http://foundationphp.com/

Report · Apr 22, 2007

"David Powers" <david@example.com> wrote in message
news:f0gg6k$jru$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Perhaps where .NET has the edge over PHP is that Microsoft tools reduce
> the need for hand coding. I keep on promising myself to learn .NET one
> day, but there haven't been enough hours in the day to combine it with all
> the other things I want/need to do.

One big difference is that PHP has no application server, unlike ASP.NET,
ColdFusion or JSP, in PHP there is no notion of an "application". Every HTTP
session is handled in isolation.

PHP, like Ruby or Python, it's a scriting language, not integrated inside an
application server.

Depending on what you develop and how you develop it, this can be just
annoying or a big limitation.

Massimo

Report · Apr 22, 2007

I apprecaite the input from everyone. I haven't made a final decision yet,
but I am going to evalutate PHP for the time being and go from there.

"envision3d" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:f0g01o$253$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>I am an ASP.NET C# developer, not a php developer, but I have played around
> with PHP. For the your situation I would recommend using PHP. Your are
> not
> building enterprise level applications, and your are a one man shop. PHP
> is a
> very fast web development language that will fit well with your needs. My
> situation is different, I am a software engineer that works in a large
> development team, and build enterprise level web and OS applications, so
> of
> course C# is the choice for me.
>

Report · Apr 23, 2007

Hi All,

I wasn't suggesting for a second that BrianMisty should stick with asp
period, that would be plain stupid. What I was saying was that while asp is
still a feasible and worthy technology to develop with, keep using it while
he gets to grips with a newer one. For me, that would be .net2 using vb, but
that is only my preference.

I feel that many non-asp developers are very quick to write-off asp as
'assigned to the scrapheap'. I have built large and complicated web apps
using asp (some quite recently) and I still find it fun to work with. Yes,
it is becoming a little antiquated and definately lacks features that newer
ones offer, but it is still a worthy technology to use and as Julian stated,
it will be around for a good while yet.

If you use a little imagination, there isn't much you cannot accomplish with
asp, even when pitched side-by-side with much newer technologies.

Pat.

"brianmisty" <brian@covingtondesign.com> wrote in message
news:f0goto$15$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>I apprecaite the input from everyone. I haven't made a final decision yet,
>but I am going to evalutate PHP for the time being and go from there.
>
>
>
> "envision3d" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
> news:f0g01o$253$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>>I am an ASP.NET C# developer, not a php developer, but I have played
>>around
>> with PHP. For the your situation I would recommend using PHP. Your are
>> not
>> building enterprise level applications, and your are a one man shop. PHP
>> is a
>> very fast web development language that will fit well with your needs.
>> My
>> situation is different, I am a software engineer that works in a large
>> development team, and build enterprise level web and OS applications, so
>> of
>> course C# is the choice for me.
>>
>

Report · Apr 23, 2007

Pat Shaw wrote:
> I feel that many non-asp developers are very quick to write-off asp as
> 'assigned to the scrapheap'.

I wouldn't put myself in that category. I used ASP myself many years
ago. I didn't switch because I thought it was "finished". I simply
didn't like it. I tried PHP and found it more to my taste.

My advice to stay away from ASP is aimed principally at newcomers. I
don't see any point in learning a technology that has come to a
standstill. Of course, for all I know, PHP might be consigned to the
scrapheap in five years' time. The difference is that Microsoft has said
it has no plans to develop classic ASP. The PHP group does have plans,
and is currently developing PHP 6. ASP.NET and ColdFusion are also under
active development. So I would advise a newcomer to go for one of them
rather than classic ASP.

--
David Powers, Adobe Community Expert
Author, "Foundation PHP for Dreamweaver 8" (friends of ED)
Author, "PHP Solutions" (friends of ED)
http://foundationphp.com/