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[Locked] Dreamweaver-What exactly am I buying

Community Beginner ,
Dec 13, 2018

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Hi:

I am using Dreamweaver 6 and I am considering buying the latest CC version. Well, renting it I guess.

I don't own ANY subscription applications, because I don't agree with this model.

Now, having said that I am considering DW CC whatever......

What do I get for my $240 a year?

yeah, I see

  • Includes: 100GB of cloud storage, Adobe Portfolio, Adobe Fonts, and Adobe Spark with premium features

Do I get to download an application or am I stuck using an online version?

Depending on the answer above, do I have to store my files in the cloud, or can I store my files locally?

What is Adobe Portfolio, Adobe Spark, and where can I learn about the fonts?

To be honest, not really an Adobe fan, because finding anything on your site always seems to be a nightmare.

Frankly, I don't even expect an answer to these questions......

Great way to start, eh?

Thank you

Rich

Adobe Community Professional
Correct answer by Nancy OShea | Adobe Community Professional

#1 Creative Cloud is NOT cloud-based software.  CC desktop apps install on your OS just the same as before.

See system requirements.  Adobe Creative Cloud system requirements

#2 Work files are under your control.  You may store them wherever you wish.  The optional Cloud Stroage is useful when synchronizing with other devices or collaborating with people but it's not required that you use it.

#3 IMO, Creative Suite 6 is not better than CC (it's 9 versions behind).  But if you find you need it for a particular project, you have access to it from your  Creative Cloud Desktop app.    I have 3 versions of DW installed on my machine.  But I work with only 1 version at a time.

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[Locked] Dreamweaver-What exactly am I buying

Community Beginner ,
Dec 13, 2018

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Hi:

I am using Dreamweaver 6 and I am considering buying the latest CC version. Well, renting it I guess.

I don't own ANY subscription applications, because I don't agree with this model.

Now, having said that I am considering DW CC whatever......

What do I get for my $240 a year?

yeah, I see

  • Includes: 100GB of cloud storage, Adobe Portfolio, Adobe Fonts, and Adobe Spark with premium features

Do I get to download an application or am I stuck using an online version?

Depending on the answer above, do I have to store my files in the cloud, or can I store my files locally?

What is Adobe Portfolio, Adobe Spark, and where can I learn about the fonts?

To be honest, not really an Adobe fan, because finding anything on your site always seems to be a nightmare.

Frankly, I don't even expect an answer to these questions......

Great way to start, eh?

Thank you

Rich

Adobe Community Professional
Correct answer by Nancy OShea | Adobe Community Professional

#1 Creative Cloud is NOT cloud-based software.  CC desktop apps install on your OS just the same as before.

See system requirements.  Adobe Creative Cloud system requirements

#2 Work files are under your control.  You may store them wherever you wish.  The optional Cloud Stroage is useful when synchronizing with other devices or collaborating with people but it's not required that you use it.

#3 IMO, Creative Suite 6 is not better than CC (it's 9 versions behind).  But if you find you need it for a particular project, you have access to it from your  Creative Cloud Desktop app.    I have 3 versions of DW installed on my machine.  But I work with only 1 version at a time.

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Mentor ,
Dec 13, 2018

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Hi Richard,

There is little value unless you have an affinity for Bootstrap, though Bootstrap automation is pretty thin. Since I have little regard for Bootstrap, I cannot defend switching from CS6 unless you use a Mac. Why? Because while CS6 will likely continue to work on Windows 10 for a decade or more, there are problems getting it to run well on the latest Mac OS and that will probably get worse with the next Apple upgrade. Another reason is UHD. CS6 does not support ultra HD screens, though there are workarounds I've seen.

If it's a question of features only, stick with CS6 and if anyone recommends otherwise please weigh their answers very, very carefully.

I also recall you are a long-time customer of ours. While our extensions work perfectly in Dreamweaver 19, Adobe has abandoned its own extension manager, so you'll need to install our free one to install your extensions. It's not a huge deal, but it is a pain in the butt.

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Community Beginner ,
Dec 13, 2018

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Thank you for the answer....

I use a Mac. Right now I am working on a Mac Pro, waiting for the new version (Hardware), so I am still at El Cap 10.11.

However, I also use my MacBook Air, which I would like to upgrade to Mojave. I have not because I am afraid DW CS 5, which I have running on that, will not work.

I think upgrading the Air to DW 6 will yield the same issue...won't work on Mojave, or as you stated, "what's to come"

Thoughts?

Rich

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Community Beginner ,
Dec 13, 2018

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Took me a second to realize who you were.

YES, I have a bunch of your stuff. Would like to recode my website from the ground up...not really dying to move to DW CC whatever, but I fear updating Mac OS on my Air, and future Pro level macs, will not run legacy DW application.

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Mentor ,
Dec 13, 2018

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Hi Richard,

See this thread on Stack Exchange. It might be helpful:

adobe - Dreamweaver compatibly with Mojave - Ask Different

But don't worry. If, for some reason, you need to go to the Adobe Cloud version, your extensions will still work. If you ever have any problems, feel free to contact us directly via email or telephone.

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Community Beginner ,
Dec 13, 2018

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As usual AL, you are ALWAYS very helpful.

I may try and install DW 6 on that AIR, then upgrade, see if it all works. (Hope I can find the disks)

You may have saved me $240...some money to buy new PV& extensions! <grin>

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Mentor ,
Dec 13, 2018

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My pleasure

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Mentor ,
Dec 13, 2018

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Hi Richard,

Just a little oversight vis a vis the new opinion posted. Nancy is an avid Bootstrap proponent, so it would not make sense for her to use anything but the latest Dreamweaver builds. That said, she is correct about the "cloud" you do download and install from the cloud a traditional desktop application. However, if your subscription is cancelled, you will no longer be able to use it.

As for non-Bootstrap users, there has been more taken out of Dreamweaver than put in. Things like Design Time CSS, Server-Side include dialogs, and more. The CSS panel, now called the CSS Designer is loved by some and hated by others as it is not a normal programmer's UI. I'm one of the haters, as are the rest of the PVII Team.

Just posting this for full disclosure so that you can make the best possible decision

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Dec 13, 2018 1
Community Beginner ,
Dec 13, 2018

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Al:

Frankly, I was, and still am, happy with DW 6.

I don't really want to upgrade, just thought running DW 6 and mojave may not gel, but you've given me hope that it just might work.

I have some upgrades to perform on my MacBook Air before I install Mojave and then DW 6, which I just downloaded.

So I think I will give that a try and if I can find the link you sent earlier that describes the "fix" to get DW 6 to run in Mojave, I might be OK.

Thank you again...

Rich

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Community Beginner ,
Dec 13, 2018

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I wish the fellow that asked had replied back that it worked.

I guess it did, otherwise he probably would have sent a negative e-mail.

Who knows?

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 13, 2018

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Red herrings aside, I use Bootstrap but that's not why I prefer CC to CS6. 

  • CS6 is legacy software that is no longer supported or updated. 
  • CS6 is not Hi DPI aware. 
  • CS6 doesn't support modern code syntax for JS, jQuery or PHP 7.
  • CS6 can't validate HTML5 code.
  • CS6 code hinting, linting and auto code completion are not as good as CC.
  • CS6's only responsive design feature (legacy Fluid Grid Layouts) is pure junk which Adobe abandoned.
  • CS6's Spry Widgets were abandoned.
  • CS6 does not support dark UI or high contrast code colors. 
  • CS6 Live View and Live View editing are not as good as CC.

But don't take my word.  Judge for yourself.  Try CC free for seven days without obligation.

Free Dreamweaver | Download Adobe Dreamweaver CC full version 

Nancy O'Shea, ACP
Alt-Web Design & Publishing

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Mentor ,
Dec 13, 2018

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea  wrote

Red herrings aside, I use Bootstrap but that's not why I prefer CC to CS6. 

  • CS6 is legacy software that is no longer supported or updated. 
  • CS6 is not Hi DPI aware. 
  • CS6 doesn't support modern code syntax for JS, jQuery or PHP 7.
  • CS6 can't validate HTML5 code.
  • CS6 code hinting, linting and auto code completion are not as good as CC.
  • CS6's only responsive design feature (legacy Fluid Grid Layouts) is pure junk which Adobe abandoned.
  • CS6's Spry Widgets were abandoned.
  • CS6 does not support dark UI or high contrast code colors. 
  • CS6 Live View and Live View editing are not as good as CC.

But don't take my word.  Judge for yourself.  Try CC free for seven days without obligation.

Free Dreamweaver | Download Adobe Dreamweaver CC full version 

Excellent points, Nancy. Thank you for your help.

But Richard should keep in mind that:

  • CS6 does not require any updates.
  • There are workarounds for HI DPI systems
  • Code hinting for JS, jQuery, and PHP 7 is only important if you regularly code, manually, in those languages.
  • The W3C still has a free validator
  • A typical use has little use for linting. Auto Code Completion in CS6 is not quite as good as CC, but is more than adequate for  a non-coder
  • If you are using a PVII page layout tool, than Fluid Grids Spry Widgets,  and Bootstrap is wholly irrelevant
  • Dark UI and various other UI designs are a valid point for the visually impaired
  • Live View is never a substitute for browser preview and Live Editing is not very "smooth"

Just trying to present the full picture here as it relates to Richard Lefko.

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Mentor ,
Dec 13, 2018

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Hi Richard,

Post this issue on our forums. You'll get a lot less tangents to wade through and we can point you to more solutions.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 13, 2018

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without wanting to add oil to the fire, and without wanting to argue about it... we have the story of the glass being half empty and the glass half full... everyone sees it in their own way.

so on both sides it seems that the glass is not optimal... on the one hand one have the cost of updates to continue using CC, and on the other hand the cost of PVII extensions to use CS6... (if as explained in the previous list of advantages, we talk about non-coders) so to fill the glass, or keep it level, one have to pay...

just a question, if one have to pay, so, what would it be like to change the glass?

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Mentor ,
Dec 14, 2018

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Richard+Lefko  wrote

I may try and install DW 6 on that AIR, then upgrade, see if it all works. (Hope I can find the disks)

If you can't finds your installer disks, you can also direct download an installer from the link below, then use your DW serial number. Download Adobe Creative Suite 6 applications

Maybe you already did, but it might also serve to help someone else in the future with the same situation.

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Community Beginner ,
Dec 14, 2018

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Thank you.

I discovered that link while working through this issue.

Rich

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Engaged ,
Dec 19, 2018

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"and on the other hand the cost of PVII extensions to use CS6... (if as explained in the previous list of advantages, we talk about non-coders)"

I still use CS6 on High Sierra.

I have purchased many (12) P7 extensions over the last 5 years usually when they were on sale at %25 off. Once paid for they are mine, no subscription. I can use them forever, on any machine running DW PC or Mac. The extensions pay for themselves, they are not a cost, they are an investment. Plus time is money, the amount of time I save by getting a P7 extension is enormous. If it had not been for P7 extensions converting my GoLIve site to DW would have been a real nightmare. P7 Extensions work right out of the box. But, if I have a problem there is a tremendous support team to help me. I now rarely come to this forum because I get all the help I need at P7. I wish that Adobe ran their company as professionally as P7. I have no qualms recommending P7 products to anyone.

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Dec 19, 2018 1
Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 19, 2018

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and you forgot to mention that you had a full glasse of cild spring water...

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Community Beginner ,
Dec 19, 2018

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I agree with you 100%.

I can not think of a good reason to move off DW 6, so I will spend that money on P7 extensions instead.

I hope there is another sale soon.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 19, 2018

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stay tuned on this chanel...

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Engaged ,
Dec 20, 2018

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At this time of year it is hot apple cider (-: And I forgot to mention I don't work for P7, just a very satisfied customer.

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Engaged ,
Dec 20, 2018

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Christmas sale just started. I'm thinking to get Harmony. (-: It is basically a 2 for 1 sale. Buy two products and get 50% off. But you have to enter the coupon "P7SANTA18" to get the discount. Now I have to to think what the second product will be so many to choose from. But it has to be something I will actually use.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 20, 2018

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you don't work for P7 I'm sure,

but in any case you have a good sales pitch, which wouldn't do it any better...

ah... the hot cider!

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Engaged ,
Dec 20, 2018

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CS6 will stop working on Macs after Mojave. So I downloaded CC 18 or 19, I forget which. It looks completely alien compared to CS6. But I can used to new UI. But what I found disappointing was the CSS editor. I hope it is just a matter of my not playing with it enough and figuring out how it works. Maybe there is a video but the way it stands now the CS6 CSS editor is more powerful. You just click on a CSS rule in your style sheet and it shows up in the tab on the right side. You then click on it in the tab and the CSS editor shows up. Easy to use because first of all I can see it, the CC version is very different and hard to see what to speak of use. I am hoping that I just have not yet discovered the secret key to using it right. It would be a real shame if CC 18 is a major downgrade from CS 6.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 20, 2018

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just hovering any element on the page and press ALT when clicking on it, you will have a navigator window that will show you all the cascade on this element , plus all the rules affecting the element, just a clik there and you will open the CSS files where you need...

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Mentor ,
Dec 20, 2018

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The CSS Designer, as Adobe calls it, is kind of like Bootstrap: Love it or Hate it. It has a little more reason to be hated by programmers, anyway, as it defies most UI conventions. That said, many of the newer code editors also employ weird UI conventions, so... there you go . And Birnou is French, a place full of wonderful, very smart, and industrious people (and lots of great cooks) who still manage to like French cars. So, I'm not sure what's up with that. But as long as you edit CSS in the actual CSS file, you'll be cool.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 20, 2018

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arf arf...... Well, more or less agree, if only for the French people love German cars and not French ones (which sell very well abroad)... so the French particularly like Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, Audi... or Italian models like Ferrari or Lamborghini.....

for my personal taste, the model I particularly like, which I had during the few years I spent in LA... is an American model..... it is a Ford Mustang convertible 68.......

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Mentor ,
Dec 20, 2018

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underhood.jpg

Merry Christmas

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 13, 2018

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#1 Creative Cloud is NOT cloud-based software.  CC desktop apps install on your OS just the same as before.

See system requirements.  Adobe Creative Cloud system requirements

#2 Work files are under your control.  You may store them wherever you wish.  The optional Cloud Stroage is useful when synchronizing with other devices or collaborating with people but it's not required that you use it.

#3 IMO, Creative Suite 6 is not better than CC (it's 9 versions behind).  But if you find you need it for a particular project, you have access to it from your  Creative Cloud Desktop app.    I have 3 versions of DW installed on my machine.  But I work with only 1 version at a time.

Nancy O'Shea, ACP
Alt-Web Design & Publishing

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Community Beginner ,
Dec 13, 2018

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Thank you Nancy. I appreciate your thoughts.

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Community Beginner ,
Dec 14, 2018

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I truly appreciate the varying opinions and answers to my question.

I am not a "coder" so the coding tools would not help me much at all.

Maybe someday.

This would all be very simple if Adobe did not switch to a subscription service. I think that is my biggest hangup.

If I could just buy the latest version, I probably would.

The websites I have developed were for myself, friends, and family, so I guess one could argue the Dreamweaver, in any version, is probably more power than I need. But I have plug ins I have invested in over the years and this application (DW6) is "comfortable" for me. Yes, I understand that it isn't Adobe's fault that Apple is changing its OS, but I do fault Adobe for leaving some of us behind by moving to their current menu of pricing.

I realize they are here to make money, on high end folks who develop for a living, and I am not the focus of that business model, so the heck with me. Probably why applications like Rapidweaver continue to flourish.

Al, I will post this on your forms as well for opinions there.

Again, that you all for replying. This has been very interesting and enlightening.

Rich

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Mentor ,
Dec 14, 2018

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Al, I will post this on your forms as well for opinions there.

Sorry for all the noise around these parts. We serve iced cold spring water on our forum - always in full glasses 🙂

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 14, 2018

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ALsp  a écrit

We serve iced cold spring water on our forum - always in full glasses 🙂

it's to your credit,

what a great commercial gesture

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Dec 14, 2018 1
Participant ,
Dec 21, 2018

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I rarely speak on this forum, just read it regularly, but there are things that make me sick:

- First, I'm not an Adobe employee and I do not earn anything to write the following.

- First, it's a dislocation site on Adobe's Dreamweaver software and not a site where you sell products, it's not ok to do that. If you want to sell its extensions, there is an Adobe site for all of its products, but not on the forum. if it were up to me, these posts would be deleted by the moderators.

- then advertising for products that do not work is useless and clutters the thread unnecessarily.

- That some practice only by the code and other than by the visual, do not bother me, on the conditions to remember that DW allows 2 and that since at least 1999, date of my discovery of this software. Personally, I practice both.

- we have problems with the operation of the current version, is not new, personally, I reported many times crasch following the new system of F & R, but this is not a reason for virtually insult the developers. They have a hierarchy and must follow orders received.

- questioning tools that exist and have been developed for many years and have been incorporated in DW, is useless. Nobody forces you to use them.

If you do not like using Dw, there are many other free or paid

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Engaged ,
Dec 21, 2018

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mbk28  wrote

I rarely speak on this forum, just read it regularly, but there are things that make me sick:

- First, I'm not an Adobe employee and I do not earn anything to write the following.

- First, it's a dislocation site on Adobe's Dreamweaver software and not a site where you sell products, it's not ok to do that. If you want to sell its extensions, there is an Adobe site for all of its products, but not on the forum. if it were up to me, these posts would be deleted by the moderators.

- then advertising for products that do not work is useless and clutters the thread unnecessarily.

- That some practice only by the code and other than by the visual, do not bother me, on the conditions to remember that DW allows 2 and that since at least 1999, date of my discovery of this software. Personally, I practice both.

- we have problems with the operation of the current version, is not new, personally, I reported many times crasch following the new system of F & R, but this is not a reason for virtually insult the developers. They have a hierarchy and must follow orders received.

- questioning tools that exist and have been developed for many years and have been incorporated in DW, is useless. Nobody forces you to use them.

If you do not like using Dw, there are many other free or paid

I don't work for P7 and I am not selling software. So what is the wrong in saying that it is a good product that greatly enhances the value of DW? Frankly if it were not for P7 I probably wouldn't be using DW.

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Community Beginner ,
Dec 21, 2018

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So let me get this straight, you decided to read my post and then spend the time to bash the people who replied with solutions and suggestions?

If this kind of public discourse really ticks you off, please don't read these msgs.

No one is forcing you to do that.

Happy holidays...

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Mentor ,
Dec 21, 2018

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I rarely speak on this forum, just read it regularly, but there are things that make me sick:

Sorry, but that is just not so.

First of all, the Adobe Exchange to date is a failure when it comes to Dreamweaver. A minuscule amount of extensions are sold there and there are serious installation and other technical difficulties. We have been in communication with Adobe directly on this and they are working on solutions. Nothing to date has been fixed.

Secondly, I was one of the original Dreamweaver Evangelists, back in 1998. I have been away from the Adobe forums (for the most part) for years because of changes to the culture. I was invited to become an ACP a few months ago. I clearly stated upfront that I would be mentioning my company's extensions and it that were acceptable, I would love to join the "team". Our extensions are first rate, often the best solution for certain types of customers, and our support without peer. But most of all, for many they are valuable assets to Dreamweaver. Actually, if there weren't a vibrant extension community back in the late 90s, this forum would not be here, because it is very likely Dreamweaver would have been dropped by Macromedia.

So, you don't have to look at our extensions if they make you sick. You don't have to read my posts if I make you sick. We don't advertise here. This forum is actually nearly dead, relatively speaking, and I would estimate if we had a video ad on every page, we might enjoy one or two sales a week.

Merry Christmas / Happy Holidays.

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Participant ,
Dec 21, 2018

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if you want to sell your products, you make like the other: tv, press, ..., but not in a forum where we discuss about the use of a software with requests and answers regarding its use, but not to see unnecessary advertisements

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Mentor ,
Dec 21, 2018

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I already answered you. I am not advertising. If I did want to "advertise", this forum would not be the place as it is relatively dead. It should not be overlooked that the original poster has been taken care of - without the use of extensions - and that he has even marked my reply to your initial outburst as the Correct Answer for this topic.

Let it go. You'll feel much better. There is no reason to be cross or negative here.

Have a happy holiday season.

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LEGEND ,
Dec 21, 2018

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mbk28  wrote

... but not to see unnecessary advertisements

I don't think they can be considered as advertisments, but as Adobes official policy says that self promotion by ACP's is allowed, and ALsp is promoting his services, there can be no complaints.

I do not agree with the policy, and it was one of the reasons I left the ACP program.

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Mentor ,
Dec 21, 2018

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You came into the "community" with the UltraDev crowd? Or was it from the very beginning of Dreamweaver?

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Engaged ,
Dec 21, 2018

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I am the one who advertised the products. I did so as a satisfied customer recommending to others. If you have been on this forum for any length of time (I joined Dec 15, 2009) it is definitely not the first time I and other forum members have recommended P7 products.

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LEGEND ,
Dec 21, 2018

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ALsp  wrote

You came into the "community" with the UltraDev crowd? Or was it from the very beginning of Dreamweaver?

Actually I was contacted during the Dw 1 dev cycle, and asked if I wished to be a tester, I declined the offer as I was then a VS Pro tester and involved in .net, C# testing. I didn't want to get involved with too much program testing, as I think 1 or 2 products is the most anyone can do serious testing for, (unlike most of the Adobe programs).

My real involvment did not start until MX when css was first seriously part of Dw, and as I had been using css since 97/98, (testing in IE also) that was when I think Dw became a contender, (since lost that position).

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Mentor ,
Dec 21, 2018

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pziecina  wrote

ALsp   wrote

You came into the "community" with the UltraDev crowd? Or was it from the very beginning of Dreamweaver?

Actually I was contacted during the Dw 1 dev cycle, and asked if I wished to be a tester, I declined the offer as I was then a VS Pro tester and involved in .net, C# testing. I didn't want to get involved with too much program testing, as I think 1 or 2 products is the most anyone can do serious testing for, (unlike most of the Adobe programs).

My real involvment did not start until MX when css was first seriously part of Dw, and as I had been using css since 97/98, (testing in IE also) that was when I think Dw became a contender, (since lost that position).

DW1 was not only pre-Adobe, but also pre-Macromedia . Extensions became possible with DW2. So, you missed the fun years... and Dreamweaver's formative years ,when extensions were basically … EVERYTHING.

It was a good community.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
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I unmarked the so called correct answer and marked the subject as assumed answered.

This has been a setup right from the start VL Branko and the OP (alias Weather man) are regulars on the PVII forum and are buddies (if not more) of ALsp​ .

Go figure.

The subject has been answered. The topic has now been locked.


Ben

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Community Beginner ,
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You really have some nerve Ben Pleaser to accuse me of some kind of collusion.

To insinuate that my post was a "Set up" to help ALsp. This could not be further from the truth. When I made this ONE AND ONLY post on the Adobe site, I was looking for help and had no idea ALsp was a moderator. Then you say I am a regular on the PVII forums, and again, you are completely wrong. I joined the PV7 forum this past week for the first time ever. Then, after suggesting this collusion, you lock the thread so I can't respond.

I hope the other Adobe moderators seek out the truth first before cutting off free speech and accusing posters of some kind of collusion.

You should not be a moderator.

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Richard+Lefko  wrote

You really have some nerve Ben Pleaser to accuse me of some kind of collusion.

To insinuate that my post was a "Set up" to help ALsp. This could not be further from the truth. When I made this ONE AND ONLY post on the Adobe site, I was looking for help and had no idea ALsp was a moderator. Then you say I am a regular on the PVII forums, and again, you are completely wrong. I joined the PV7 forum this past week for the first time ever. Then, after suggesting this collusion, you lock the thread so I can't respond.

I hope the other Adobe moderators seek out the truth first before cutting off free speech and accusing posters of some kind of collusion.

You should not be a moderator.


Ben

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LEGEND ,
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Although this is a reply to your post Ben, it is to all you gentlemen, (and anyone else involved) in this disagreement.

Although the disagreement is in, and started in a public forum. This is not the place to continue it. Both yourself and ALsp are acp's, so maybe asking Preran​ to moderate a discussion via PM's between all concerned would be a better solution.

Personally I don't see the problem on both sides, and as all concerned probably live in different countries, then the law of each individuals country applies, (don't blame me for that, blame the US Supreme court, as that is what the decided years ago).

As for me, I'm going to enjoy a quite glass of wine, and forget all about this as it does not concern me, (except that it is in a discussion I am taking part in, and is not part of the discussion itself) or anyone else, so I probably like others could not care less.

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Happy holidays everyone!

Noel.jpg

Nancy O'Shea, ACP
Alt-Web Design & Publishing

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Mentor ,
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Hi Paula,

Your voice of reason is soothing. However, any wrongdoing doing that can be attributed to me, is purely Kafkaesque in nature. Ben made a very clear allegation, and from the last post he made is clearly hanging on dearly to make some sort of point that is nonexistent. I would welcome a moderated private discussion as long as the goal is for Ben to either prove his allegations or agree to a public apology.

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Engaged ,
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I really think that you are reading things into this that are not there.

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LEGEND ,
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The discussion is now unlocked, the question is by whom?

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LEGEND ,
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All I would like to add to this discussion, is that this discussion -

https://forums.adobe.com/thread/2401471

from 2 years ago, (even with a number of the posts removed, due to a forum mistake) appears to be still relevant.

We are going over and over the same themes in the forum, and the conclusions never change.

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Engaged ,
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pziecina  wrote

All I would like to add to this discussion, is that this discussion -

css, 2 conflicting interests, and why I, You, and the Dw team get it wrong.

from 2 years ago, (even with a number of the posts removed, due to a forum mistake) appears to be still relevant.

We are going over and over the same themes in the forum, and the conclusions never change.

I found that earlier and read quite a bit of it. Interesting. I just wonder how long DW will last. GoLive was killed off, so was Muse recently. Who is next?

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Community Beginner ,
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I simply want to BUY a Dreamweaver application.

No subscriptions, I simply want to own it.

I am NOT a professional web developer, I am a simple hobbyist who could probably use other apps out there, but I preferred DW since that was what i used when Macromedia owned it.

I can't afford this subscription model. I don't make money on my site, except a couple of businesses I know, help me out with hosting, email costs, and stuff like that.

In my mind, this is really simple. Just sell me the damn thing.

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LEGEND ,
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https://forums.adobe.com/people/VL+Branko  wrote

I just wonder how long DW will last. GoLive was killed off, so was Muse recently. Who is next?

I don't think Dw will be axed, simply because the dev team is so small when compared to other Adobe products. Including 3rd part solutions/features, has helped to keep it alive as it has kept dev costs down. Even though I have no idea why people continue to use Dw, when other newer programs, (Wappler being a good example) offer much more for the cost.

All I can think of is that it is because it is part of the CC subscription, and/or users have invested a lot of money on various extensions over the years, that makes moving to any other program financially very expensive, which would be especially true for those who did not purchase as CS.x version, but only bought into Dw when it became a subscription only offering, (don't forget they then have no Dw if they cancel, so no access to any extensions).

As ALsp, and others will tell you I am not a fan of extensions, but agree that some users do require them for whatever reason, (I hold the same opinion about using bootstrap, though I am not comparing them).

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Guide ,
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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Richard+Lefko  wrote

I simply want to BUY a Dreamweaver application.

No subscriptions, I simply want to own it.

I am NOT a professional web developer, I am a simple hobbyist who could probably use other apps out there, but I preferred DW since that was what i used when Macromedia owned it.

I can't afford this subscription model. I don't make money on my site, except a couple of businesses I know, help me out with hosting, email costs, and stuff like that.

In my mind, this is really simple. Just sell me the damn thing.

Dreamweaver is not sold anymore as a perpetual license - only renting it is possible at this point, unfortunately.

If renting is out of the question, I would suggest to have a look at the trial of Pinegrow, which I feel is the spiritual successor to Dreamweaver's visual editing of old. A full "purchase to own" license is available, and at less than half the cost of a year's worth of DW rent. Pinegrow does not have a built-in FTP option, so an external free FTP client like Filezilla must be used to upload and manage files on the server. Other than that, it might be what you are looking for. It's a fine visual web editor, with support for all the latest html/css standards, and various front-end frameworks, such as Bootstrap, Foundation, and Materialize.

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Richard+Lefko   wrote

In my mind, this is really simple. Just sell me the damn thing.

It's impossible to sell something that no longer exists.  Adobe's Creative Cloud model has been wildly successful. There's no going back to the old Creative Suite model.  In fact, CS products are not legally available from any merchant, vendor or  re-seller in any country.   If you happen to find a copy of CS6 for sale somewhere, beware of non-genuine software that could potentially harm your computer or worse...

Adobe Genuine software

If the seller of pre-owned software isn't willing to officially transfer license  ownership to you, run away. 

Transfer an Adobe product license

rayek.elfin  wrote

If renting is out of the question, I would suggest to have a look at the trial of Pinegrow, which I feel is the spiritual successor to Dreamweaver's visual editing of old.

I 2nd the Pinegrow recommendation as an alternative editor.   It does many things very well like WordPress themeing.  But as you say, it lacks the site management capabilities of DW.  And since the OP  has already invested in PVII extensions which are built exclusively for DW, Richard is committed to using DW at least some of the time.  Which brings us all the way back to the  beginning of this long and often contentious discussion.  DW is only available by subscription now.   End of story. 

Creative Cloud pricing and membership plans | Adobe Creative Cloud

Nancy O'Shea, ACP
Alt-Web Design & Publishing

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Engaged ,
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pziecina  wrote

https://forums.adobe.com/people/VL+Branko   wrote

I just wonder how long DW will last. GoLive was killed off, so was Muse recently. Who is next?

I don't think Dw will be axed, simply because the dev team is so small when compared to other Adobe products. Including 3rd part solutions/features, has helped to keep it alive as it has kept dev costs down. Even though I have no idea why people continue to use Dw, when other newer programs, (Wappler being a good example) offer much more for the cost.

All I can think of is that it is because it is part of the CC subscription, and/or users have invested a lot of money on various extensions over the years, that makes moving to any other program financially very expensive, which would be especially true for those who did not purchase as CS.x version, but only bought into Dw when it became a subscription only offering, (don't forget they then have no Dw if they cancel, so no access to any extensions).

As ALsp, and others will tell you I am not a fan of extensions, but agree that some users do require them for whatever reason, (I hold the same opinion about using bootstrap, though I am not comparing them).

I was thinking something along these lines that if Adobe is selling a subscription it has to have something to sell. And if it keeps cutting things out that it is selling then it becomes less reason for a customer to keep that subscription. So it is in their interest to have as many toys as is possible in their offering to potential customers.

Of course just because something is in their best interest doesn't always mean that a person/company will do it. History has many examples of things being done against the self interest of the entity concerned. People/companies can have a self-destructive streak in them.

Regarding "extensions" I agree with you. If I were a full time web designer/developer I would master all the tools of my craft and not be dependent on any 3rd party. Just as a gourmet chef would turn up their nose at a bottle of "Raghu" pasta sauce on the store shelf. I make all my sauce from scratch and wonder "who actually eats that #$%^& ? Don't they know how to cook?" (I learned from my Nona - a professional Italian cook.)

But I am not a full time professional designer/developer. I just want to make and maintain my own site the best I can. I get a lot of compliments from visitors to my site. Any decent time saving 3rd party extension out there is a God send to me. I do not want to be spending all my time learning java script and PHP, it is enough that I am not afraid to get into html and CSS to customize my site so that it doesn't look like it came out of a bottle of Raghu pasta sauce (-: My personal site is important to me for my profession but it should not come in the way of performing my profession. That I spend so much time learning all the things a web professional would learn when I am not nor do I want to become a web professional. I just want a good looking site that I can maintain myself. If I had to pay someone to make my site the way I have it now it would have been astronomically expensive.

And, I should say that I have actually learned a lot about HTML but especially CSS by studying the extensions I got from P7 because I had to in order to customize them to the max to suit my aesthetic.  Now no one would think it came from P7 unless they looked under the hood.

For those who are culinarily challenged Raghu sauce in a bottle is as close as they are going to come to real Italian food. The same applies to me when it comes to DW extensions. I have neither the time, inclination and especially need to learn all that needs to be learned to be an actual web pro because I don't want to be a web pro. I am just doing this for myself so that I have a nice web presence. I do not make web sites for others.

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LEGEND ,
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https://forums.adobe.com/people/VL+Branko  wrote

And, I should say that I have actually learned a lot about HTML but especially CSS by studying the extensions I got from P7 because I had to in order to customize them to the max to suit my aesthetic.  Now no one would think it came from P7 unless they looked under the hood.

Using extensions to learn is one of the reasons I think they are usefull to users. The problem I have though, is that I think what a lot of extensions do, should be part of Dw itself. I don't think leaving such features out of Dw as a stand alone program is what users should expect, and they should not expect to have to pay an extension developer extra.

I know that would put extension developers out of business, but that is another discussion.

Even the developers of Dw must use tools for layout, (talking about the programmers of Dw now) and debugging, and as much of Dw is developed using html, css and js, why does the Dw management think that Dw users doing the same would not require the tools they use?

(I'm returning to the subject that interested me originally in this discussion, support for coding).

Just as Visual Studio Pro, has visual tools for layout, and tools to help in debugging any code, so should Dw. The use of extensions should, (I would hope) remove the requirement of debugging for those who do not wish to get as deep into code as would otherwise be required.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
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(Wappler being a good example) offer much more for the cost.

I've not used Wappler but when I look at the pricing its €49 euros per month for the pro version, that doesn't seem particlulary cheap for a single app... Maybe I'm missing something? In the UK tax (VAT) is 20% so thats taking the cost close to €60 euros per month for people who can't claim back the tax (that could include a lot of freelenacers in the UK) . That in my book is not good value or cheap for a single app, it would have to be pretty spectacular for me to consider that good value.

Paul-M, ACP

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VL Branko...you have summed up my situation to a "T".....

I agree with your assessment 100%, because I am in the exact same situation as you are.

Thank you for expressing your thoughts so clearly.

Rich

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Energize  wrote

I've not used Wappler but when I look at the pricing its €49 euros per month for the pro version, that doesn't seem particlulary cheap for a single app... Maybe I'm missing something? In the UK tax (VAT) is 20% so thats taking the cost close to €60 euros per month for people who can't claim back the tax (that could included a lot of freelenacers in the UK) . That in my book is not good value or cheap for a single app, it would have to be pretty spectacular for me to consider that good value.

What is missing from the price comparison, is all the features that are standard in Wappler, but require the purchase of extensions for in Dw.

Don't get me wrong here, but I think Wappler is aimed more at the market that Dw once catered for, (server side requiermments, built with visual helper features, so not limited to coders). Once you add the costs of those extensions on a subscription base, then Dw almost doubles in cost compared to Wappler.

I'm not a fan of Wappler because the code editor is simply terrible, but for none coders who require server and database code, Dw offers nothing. If on the other hand someone does not require server/database code, then Pinegrow would be my choice for none coders.

Both those programs offer something for none coders, and like everything else in life both a matter of choice, depending on user requirements. Dw on the other hand is not for serious coders, or for none/casual coders, who simply want to use a simplified site layout UI.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
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I just downloaed Wappler for a quick look, like you say the code editor is basic at the moment but thats their market. As far as I can see the version I downloaded for free doesn't allow me to test-drive the features/extensions included in the Pro version, so not much for me to look at if I were a serious customer.

Paul-M, ACP

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LEGEND ,
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The lack of a full 'trial' version of Wappler is a major drawback, as I personally would never buy any web dev program without first trying it out.

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Mentor ,
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Using extensions to learn is one of the reasons I think they are usefull to users. The problem I have though, is that I think what a lot of extensions do, should be part of Dw itself. I don't think leaving such features out of Dw as a stand alone program is what users should expect, and they should not expect to have to pay an extension developer extra. I know that would put extension developers out of business, but that is another discussion.

I am a bit of an amateur chef and would never use jarred Italian sauce. As for extensions being part of Dreamweaver - some no doubt should. But it's obvious how difficult it has been for Adobe to figure out a page-layout feature, can you imagine if they were to follow your ideas and develop several menu tools, various and sundry widgets, in addition to what the core application must do? It is important to note that many of our customers come away knowing more about their craft after using our products because we do tend to take the "teach a man to fish" option with our support efforts. Many PVII customers have become experts in their own rights - and I know you know at least one of them pretty well.

We've been doing what we do for 22 years. Longer than anyone. And the gig is still enjoyable, mainly because we get to do what we like, we get to help folks, and we get to talk and interact with our customers every day, both online and via phone. Actually the only negative experiences we ever seem have happen here. Odd.

So, given your philosophy about extensions, should that also apply to home remodelers? The craftsman that makes better furniture than you can get at Ikea? Companies like Dinan, that provides tuning and performance for BMW cars? Dinan is an interesting thing, as it's a company I know a lot about - both because they are spiritually related to what I do and because I use their services. They provide in essence extensions for BMWs. While there are programmers and engineers who could surely make those modifications themselves, many cannot. So, if they want enhanced performance, they come to Dinan. BMW recognized this years ago and has built a relationship with Dinan, one that, among other things, ensures that Dinan-enhance cars are fully warranted.

In any event, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. And I am entitled to consider wrong. But having different opinions and choosing to use or not use extensions is pretty much a freedom that should be afforded to everyone - without bias.

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LEGEND ,
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ALsp  wrote

In any event, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. And I am entitled to consider wrong. But having different opinions and choosing to use or not use extensions is pretty much a freedom that should be afforded to everyone - without bias.

I think we can both agree on that.

The one item I see wrong in your post, is that all of the professions you mention, do require an apprenticeship, (at least here in the U/K). So they all go through the experiance of getting it wrong, making a complete mess of it, but are then shown how to do it correctly by a craftsman, (or woman), and only after they are considered competant are they let loose try try their knowledge on the real thing.

Maybe if we consider extensions as the part in the apprentices training when the craftsman shows them how to do it correctly, (repeatedly).

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Mentor ,
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The one item I see wrong in your post, is that all of the professions you mention, do require an apprenticeship, (at least here in the U/K). So they all go through the experiance of getting it wrong, making a complete mess of it, but are then shown how to do it correctly by a craftsman, (or woman), and only after they are considered competant are they let loose try try their knowledge on the real thing.

Maybe that's the core of our "disagreement". In the professions I mentioned, I was drawing an equivalent to what PVII does. We went through our apprenticeship in the late 1990s, me focusing on markup and CSS, and my partner on ECMAScript. And we practiced. My goodness we practiced long and hard. For the non-coder, or casual coder, we could be considered to be the master craftsmen called in when the DIY job goes horribly wrong.

I could be wrong, but the assertion you make seems to be valid only if you are saying that we are not truly competent, and I don't think you would do that.

Anyway, I think it should be clear to both of us that disagreements online, in this type of medium, can be showcases for the worst aspects of human nature and interaction. So with that, I bid you a joyous holiday.

Pax.

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LEGEND ,
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Energize  wrote

I just downloaed Wappler for a quick look, like you say the code editor is basic at the moment but thats their market. As far as I can see the version I downloaded for free doesn't allow me to test-drive the features/extensions included in the Pro version, so not much for me to look at if I were a serious customer.

It does allow you to test drive all the features but you have to sign up and hand over your credit card details first l think then cancel if you are not happy within  the stipulated period of time stated for either the monthly or yearly subcription model, both have different amounts of time you can test drive the programme.

My biggest issue with it is it produces its own unique coding if you want to take advantage of all its front end and back end components. That may be bad for your clients as the code is not industry recognised or standard.

Having said that if youre not a full time web developer and have zero desire to be so but are just producing a few websites for friends or even yourself its a fantastic bit of kit.

The code editor itself is currently quite poor in my opinion but to be fair it never set out to be a code editor

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Engaged ,
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pziecina  wrote

https://forums.adobe.com/people/VL+Branko   wrote

And, I should say that I have actually learned a lot about HTML but especially CSS by studying the extensions I got from P7 because I had to in order to customize them to the max to suit my aesthetic.  Now no one would think it came from P7 unless they looked under the hood.

Using extensions to learn is one of the reasons I think they are usefull to users. The problem I have though, is that I think what a lot of extensions do, should be part of Dw itself. I don't think leaving such features out of Dw as a stand alone program is what users should expect, and they should not expect to have to pay an extension developer extra.

I know that would put extension developers out of business, but that is another discussion.

Even the developers of Dw must use tools for layout, (talking about the programmers of Dw now) and debugging, and as much of Dw is developed using html, css and js, why does the Dw management think that Dw users doing the same would not require the tools they use?

(I'm returning to the subject that interested me originally in this discussion, support for coding).

Just as Visual Studio Pro, has visual tools for layout, and tools to help in debugging any code, so should Dw. The use of extensions should, (I would hope) remove the requirement of debugging for those who do not wish to get as deep into code as would otherwise be required.

Hmmmm. This sounds a bit like Microsoft's tactics in the 80s. Somebody had a popular 3rd party utility, and in the next iteration of PC DOS that utility would become part of the OS and the 3rd party company went kaput. They did the same to Word Perfect, offered MS Word for free and killed Word Perfect, and after it died they charged through the nose for MS Word. Did the same to Netscape.

Of course it would be great if Adobe DW could do a lot of things that currently are extensions. But I suspect that the people who make extensions would just make something else that DW doesn't do but that people want. However having said that it seems that DW is incapable of doing this (hence your complaint)  so extension makers do it instead. Then people get DW simply to have a platform to run the extensions. Or like I say "Salad is just an excuse to have salad dressing" If you saw the kind of salad dressing I make you would know what I mean (think lots of avocados, fresh dill, honey, mustard, yogurt, etc real thick and creamy ).

I also think that extensions arise because Adobe just can't get it right on several issues. For example DW tools for making a fluid grid layout in CS6 was a non-starter, but an extension did the job perfectly.

PhotoShop has a lot of extensions but I can't see Adobe building those extensions into the system it would be a colossal task that would bloat the system with things only a few people would use. I have the complete Topaz collection but only use 3 of them. And that is only one extension.

Another thing is that P7 extensions work on every known iteration of DW. How would that work if they were built into DW?

I don't think P7 and others are going to go out of business any time soon. Not unless Adobe makes them an offer they can't refuse.

So I understand that your real complaint is that Adobe should be such a complete system that extensions would be unnecessary. I can agree with that but,  it seems, that will never happen. So we are therefor thankful for P7 and other extension makers.

Exactly what do you refer to when you say "Visual Studio Pro?"

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LEGEND ,
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ALsp  wrote

I could be wrong, but the assertion you make seems to be valid only if you are saying that we are not truly competent, and I don't think you would do that.

I'm saying exactly the opposite, as I consider you and your extensions, (when those who use them want to learn by reading the code produced by them) to be the equivalent to the craftsman instructing the apprentice.

Shows how easily misunderstandings can happen .

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Engaged ,
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pziecina  wrote

ALsp   wrote

I could be wrong, but the assertion you make seems to be valid only if you are saying that we are not truly competent, and I don't think you would do that.

I'm saying exactly the opposite, as I consider you and your extensions, (when those who use them want to learn by reading the code produced by them) to be the equivalent to the craftsman instructing the apprentice.

Shows how easily misunderstandings can happen .

I sometimes go to pages on P7 when I see something that I like, download the page, analyze it, then apply a version of it to my page. Imitation is the highest form of flattery

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Mentor ,
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Right

Actually, though, I was speaking more of the DIY bath remodeler trying to make a rainforest in the master suite thinking he can figure out the techniques from YouTube and online forums. An apprentice is only a apprentice if he want to master a craft. A lot of casual web designers or those trying to manage their onw sites because of budgetary reasons ( a master web designer does tend to cost an awful lot more than extensions ) might turn to extensions to make their sites look as "masterful" as possible.

Anyway, minor points. I'm thankful we still have a customer base of folks who value our tools.

Have a happy...

Gotta go buy some food...

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LEGEND ,
Dec 24, 2018

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/VL+Branko  wrote

So I understand that your real complaint is that Adobe should be such a complete system that extensions would be unnecessary. I can agree with that but,  it seems, that will never happen. So we are therefor thankful for P7 and other extension makers.

Exactly what do you refer to when you say "Visual Studio Pro?"

You are correct in what I am saying, but as you say, 'it will never happen'. Mainly because to do so it would require a very good understanding of exactly what is required.

Regarding VS Pro -

If you read -

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/visualstudio/designers/designing-xaml-in-visual-studio?view=vs-2017

you will see that when creating Windows programs, (or apps) even MS has recognised that creating the UI and many of the components, a visual method of doing so is very helpfull. It is possible to use MS Blend to create web UI's if one knows what to add and remove. When MS first introduced Blend many programmers, (coders) did not want to use it, but now there are not many who do not use it.

Having the option to create UI's and components visually for web sites, would I think follow the same course, in that many would initially object, but after they had tried it, it would be a 'must have' method or feature. A lot of the functionality that Blend creates still requires coding knowledge in order to change how it works, so no one is left out. It becomes a collaboration or combining of skill sets.

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Dec 24, 2018 0