Is Flex/Flash Builder dead?

[aligned2009]

I don't understand today's announcement. Is Flex/Flash Builder dead, or does desktop development continue, or do I continue developing and everything will magically work in mobile devices with AIR?

[pauland]

aligned2009 wrote:

I don't understand today's announcement

That's understandable.

Is Flex/Flash Builder dead,

No.

does desktop development continue

Yes.

do I continue developing and everything will magically work in mobile devices with AIR?

Yes, absolutely.

[aligned2009]

Thanks - flash on mobile devices without air didn't make sense to me due to the high interaction required with local data. What was exactly cancelled here that Adobe laid off 750 people? Is this a way to pay homage to Steve Jobs so that air (ie flash) can become more prevalent on iphones? It doesn't sound to me like flash builder will be targeting html5 as much as mobile users will be required to install air on their phone. Am I incorrect here?

[pauland]

Everybody wants to predict the future. Adobe has an intrest in Flash and HTML so I would expect them to look at being the best HTML 5 development platform, one way or another, but I don't see it as an either-or situation.

[Guest]

from Twitter...

Millions of #Flash Designers/Developers can target HTML5 too. Next version of Flash Pro: Build in #Flash and convert to #HTML5 and #CSS

[aligned2009]

I would assume that would take more adobe workers, not less. How is adobe making bricks without straw?

[rtalton]

@aligned2009: The upcoming Flash Builder 4.6 update will allow you to bundle the AIR runtime within your mobile app's installation file. Users who then install your app on their smartphone will no longer need to also install AIR.

HTH

[aligned2009]

My wife who is a technically amish first grade teacher heard today that "Flash was going away" which is pretty telling on how this message is being distributed. The fact she received adobe news through her life channels really signifies to me how badly this communication went, and how expansive it is. We are totally swamped in our startup and don't have time to read the tea leaves of intention. Adobe should hire the contributors on this thread for public relations, this thread seems more informative than this morning's statement. Thanks to all.

[drkstr_1]

Who cares about the flash player? The player is just machine code, and is pretty much irrelevant to both developers and the end user. What I want to know, what is the future of Actionscript and the Flex framework? Will Flex/Flash Builder continue to be a technology stack that will deliver multi platform web content?

[Dave_Alger]

I think that today's announcement is being blown way out of proportion.

The thing that is no longer being worked on and supported by Adobe was already not really being used, supported or working... mobile Flash player for mobile browsers

I can't think of any major or worthwhile web application that was designed to run inside of a mobile browser.  Even well written HTML5 apps have a hard time performing in a browser running on a mobile device.

Flash Builder / Flex / ActionScript isn't going anywhere and will continue to be used for creating and compiling native applications for any Android / iPhone / Blackberry mobile device along with all the major desktop browsers.

In addition, new products like Edge will fill the gap for using familiar movie timeline tools for making animated banners / logos / buttons in pure HTML5 eventually removing the need for Flash player in other browsers but that transition will still take awhile as development continues for Flash player in all the major desktop browsers.

as a side note: I met some of the developers for Edge at MAX this year and there are only like 5 or 6 of them and the product is turning out far superior in some ways to the Flash IDE.  It doesn't take a lot of developers to build something awesome, clean and performant.  In many cases when it comes to software development, too many cooks spoil the broth

[Claudiu_Ursica]

Medium to long term this will lead to a gradually replacement of the existing flash and flex apps. Why would you have 2 applications one for desktop and one for devices when you can have only one browser app using html5 targeting both of

 them? Devices are a reality and even if now the player is not used that much on mobiles, not having it in the mobile's browser will exclude flash/flex as a possible choice in the future. As a company why would I invest in a second technology just to target the devicewhen I can have only one.

C

[Guest]

The real test will be what Adobe delivers in the next "major" release of Flash Builder.

Flash Builder 4.5 was all about mobile Flex apps.

If Flash Builder 5 fails to impress, RoR...

[drkstr_1]

Personally, I would really love to see Actionscript/Flex become more of an abstraction language like CoffeeScript and/or Google WebKit. I could certainly justify using Flex if it had the ability to output to both low level machine code for native apps or HTML/JS for the web (with the obvious caveats for supported features in "web mode").

[rtalton]

Adobe made the right move, I think, in developing Flash Builder for desktop apps and mobile apps using AIR.

They have their reasons for dropping Flash for mobile, and I'm sure they are good ones. It's business.

The bloggers will keep crowing "I told you so" about the demise of Flash for mobile. So what? Most don't seem to have an original thought in their heads anyway. They don't care about the cost of mobile web development. They are the Occupy The Web crowd and bash companies like Adobe (Flash) & Microsoft (Silverlight) while offering no viable alternatives. These bloggers traffic in link bait designed to get clicks to their ad-infested websites so they can collect their paychecks. And a lot of those ads are done in Flash. Without those compelling animated Flash ads the bloggers may have to take a pay cut. Zing!

-----

There are businesses which need a mobile presence, but have absolutely no need for an "app" you'd have to download and install. It's a step most people don't want to be bothered with when looking for a company's information on their mobile browsers. But there is a huge (I think) market out there for mobile web sites (not apps) that have somewhat complex data requirements and will work on any mobile device. This kind of development is happening at larger businesses, and must be prohibitively expensive. Note to Adobe: I tried Jquery mobile in Dreamweaver - it just doesn't cut it for these types of cases.

I believe Adobe needs to have a great javascript tool for building event-driven mobile sites which could manipulate lots of data on the client side. Similar to what we can do with Flash Builder. Maybe html5 "web workers" can be leveraged to do this. But even then the problem of browser incompatibilities is never going to go away. That's the advantage of using the Flash engine to do all the processing in a stateful web application for desktops/laptops. We don't have to worry about the browser wars. If Flash were to suddenly go away we would have to go back to coding for the wild west of MS, Google, Apple and Mozilla all interpreting "standards" differently. Like non-Flex coders are doing now. *shudder* The critics of Adobe never seem to get this point and ignore the business cost of developing in javascript. ROI, TCO...these seem to be foreign terms to the folks urging the abandonment of Flash. It's not their money, so what do they care if the cost of delivering data via a mobile site is high to these "1%-ers"? Hey they got the dough, right? What we can do in Flash Builder in minutes would take javascript coders hours to accomplish-if it ever worked well at all. It's not the coders' fault: Javascript is a poor substitute for AS3.

ok, I'll get off my soapbox now.

[Yozef0]

I guess the Future of Flex is... will Flex Export to HTML5 + the Right Javascript Stack, is that even possible ?

I'm thinking here of the wonderfull Flex Components, the beautify and simplicity of extending them to fit our custom needs, SKINNING For Crying out loud! Flash Catalyst is Gold!

Just when the Web Became supper fun and easy to develop Beautiful Rich Apps, they tell us: "Sorry Folks"... Stick to the "Standards" - Something no browser follows consistently We're back to HTML4 (gotta write the component for every browser / OS). Don't Kid me... Each Browser compiles HTML and CSS differently.

And Animation framerates on Mobiles (even often Desktop Browsers) - SUCK. Very Jittery to any novel Flash Developer.

IE is going to create another Dent in HTML5 "Standards".

So as of Today, there is No Definitive Answer to Building Rich Apps for the "Web".

[Guest]

Yozef couldn't agree with you more! i was thinking the same things. Adobe has such a great IDE for developing flex apps... the next generation of flex builder (yes they should go back to flex builder and not flash builder  and I mean v5 not 4.6) should ask you what type of project you want to build when you first create it (flash, air, OR html5). why not make the flex components they have today html components where it creates the code for you with drag and drops and absolute positioning and data binding through pre-defined javascript functions (all open source as flex is today). or is there another IDE out there that glues everything together as well as flex?

i got to say i've tried the jQuery and HTML 5 stuff. its good but so many cross browser compatibility problems that flash didn't have. something funky seems to always happen with those javascript components. most firms mandate IE8 still and HTML5 is not compatible at all with it.

we're stuck between a rock and a hard place with the latest news from Adobe. its pretty confusing and i'm sure they'll clear some things up in the next week or so. i hope companies don't misinterpret this to think that flash and flex are dead or dying and pull the plug on future developments.

[pauland]

Sent to me today:

#1 Some FAQs about Adobe’s announcements yesterday

What is it that Adobe is announcing?

Adobe announced to increase its efforts on HTML5, use of the Flash Player for

applications (packaged with AIR) and specific desktop browsing use cases including

premium video and console-quality gaming. As a result, Adobe will no longer develop

Flash Player for mobile web browsers. See this Flash Platform blog post for more details: http://adobe.ly/sbokei

Does this mean that Adobe is no longer supporting content publishers focused
on delivering content via a browser on a mobile device?

Adobe offers world-class tools and technologies including HTML5 tools like Edge that

allow content publishers and developers to bring rich content and experiences across

mobile web browsers using HTML5.

What does this mean for Flash Player support on desktops?

Adobe is fully committed to providing a great experience for use cases not yet well

supported by HTML, including console quality gaming and premium video. In fact, Flash

Player 11 just introduced dozens of new features, including hardware accelerated 3D

graphics for console-quality gaming and premium HD video with content protection. We

are already working on Flash Player 12 and a new round of exciting features which we

expect to again advance what is possible for delivering high definition entertainment

experiences.

Why is Adobe making this move now?

All the major platform providers (Android, iOS, Windows 8) are betting on HTML5 for

browsing, some even to the point of excluding third party plug-ins such as Flash Player.

Adobe sees this as the right time to increase our focus on accelerating the development

of HTML for in browser experiences, especially on mobile (phones and tablets), and

general purpose apps, while using Flash to drive what’s possible in advanced interactive

entertainment areas like console-quality gaming and premium video so that it can

continue to serve as a blueprint for further work on HTML. Flash developers get the

greatest reach by targeting mobile devices with apps packaged with AIR, and that is

where we are investing while helping the mobile browsers advance the state of the art of

what can be done in a browser. Our new strategy allows us to maintain leadership in

web content and give developers the best tools to create content across all platforms.

Will Adobe continue to support AIR? On Mobile? On TVs?

Adobe is fully committed to enabling Flash based apps via AIR on mobile and digital

home devices.

Will the Flash Player continue to be available on the Android Market?

Yes. The current version of Flash will be available on the Android Market in the near

future.

When will Adobe stop supporting Flash Player for browsing on mobile?

Adobe will release one more version of the Flash Player for mobile browsing, which will

provide support for Android 4.0, and one more release of the Flash Linux Porting Kit -

both expected to be released before the end of this year. After that time, Adobe will

continue to provide critical bug fixes and security updates.

What will happen with Flash Player support on RIM’s BBX platform?

Adobe will continue to support RIM’s use of the Flash Player on the current PlayBook

configurations with critical bug fixes and security updates. RIM has done a great job

optimizing the Flash Player for their platform and as a result the RIM playbook provides

a great experience for consuming Flash content. RIM is expected to leverage their

expertise with Flash to continue to support and ship the Flash Player on BBX devices for the foreseeable future.

Will the current version of Flash Player support smartphones and tablets that are
coming to market over the coming weeks and months?

It depends on the version of the OS, silicon, and browser supported on the device. We

are working with OEMs to determine the appropriate support and transition plan for their

current and planned devices.

Will Adobe stop OEMs from shipping Flash Player on devices?

No, Adobe will not stop OEMs from pre-loading and shipping the Flash Player. We

expect some of our OEM partners to opt to continue working on and releasing their own

implementations of the Flash Player. However, Adobe will be recommending mobile

OEMs discontinue pre-loading new devices with Flash Player due to expected OS and

browser compatibility issues. However, existing licensees can continue shipping Flash

Player at the manufacturer’s discretion.

Will 3D support and any of the console-quality Flash games you demoed at MAX
come to mobile devices?

Yes, game developers will be able to bring console-quality games with hardwareaccelerated

3D graphics to mobile devices as Flash based apps packaged with AIR. On

the desktop 3D games can be delivered with Flash within the browser or as a Flash

based app via AIR. However, 3D content will not be supported in Flash Player on mobile

browsers.

What does this mean for Flex?

Flex SDK 4.5 supports the development of mobile applications that target, or are

packaged with AIR. Mobile applications built with Flex SDK are installed on phone or

tablet devices and do not rely upon the browser or Adobe Flash Player to run; as such,

they are unaffected by this announcement.

How does this affect other Flash Platform tools?

This news has no impact on the Flash platform tooling offerings (e.g. Flash Builder) from

Adobe.

Is Flash getting more and more replaced by HTML5? How will Adobe advance
Flash Player on desktops and stay relevant?

We are continuing to invest in Flash to deliver the most advanced web experiences on

desktops, focusing on features that are not yet available in HTML5. Flash Player 11 just

introduced dozens of new features, including hardware accelerated 3D graphics for

console-quality gaming and premium HD video with content protection. Flash

developers can take advantage of these features, and all that Flash has to offer, to reach more than a billion desktops through their browsers and repurpose their content to hundreds of millions of mobile devices through popular App Stores using Flash based

apps packaged/enabled with AIR.

We are already working on the next future version of Flash Player and a new round of

exciting features which we expect to again advance what is possible for delivering high

definition entertainment experiences across the Web and devices. We will continue to

leverage our experience with Flash to accelerate our work with the W3C and WebKit to

bring similar capabilities to HTML5 as quickly as possible, just as we have done with

CSS Shaders. And, we will design new features in Flash for a smooth transition to

HTML5 as the standards evolve so developers can confidently invest knowing their skills will continue to be leveraged.

How many Flash-based apps are available on App Stores today?

There are thousands of Flash based apps available on App Stores like Android Market,

AppWorld, or Amazon’s App Store. Popular and top rated examples include

Machinarium, Politifact, Dr Stanley’s House, Facebook on BlackBerry, WatchESPN etc.

How are Flash-based apps different from HTML5 apps?

Flash based apps deliver features and capabilities not yet supported in HTML5 such as

3D graphics or content protection for premium video. Developers are able to deliver

high-end entertainment experiences as Flash based apps packaged via AIR on mobile

platforms and within the browser on desktops.

What about Flash Player and support for web browsing on TV’s (Google TV,
Samsung SmartTVs and other connected Digital Home devices)?

Adobe will continue to support existing licensees who are planning on supporting Flash

Player for web browsing on digital home devices and are using the Flash Player Porting

Kit to do so. However we believe the right approach to deliver content on televisions is

through applications, not a web browsing experience, and we will continue to encourage

the device and content publishing community down that path.

What happens to Flash browsing support in the Google TV solution?

We recommend you talk with Google, but we believe Google has no immediate plans to

remove the Flash Player from the Google TV browser.

Do you regret having waited so long after Steve Jobs predicted that Flash Player
won’t work on mobile devices 1.5 years ago?

HTML5 has matured and is able to deliver a great web browsing experiences across

mobile devices. At the same time users consume rich content almost exclusively via

apps on smartphones and tablets today.

At Adobe we are focused on delivering the best tools and technologies for our

developers and content publishers so they can offer the best possible experiences to

their customers across platforms - from desktops to smartphones, from tablets to

TVs. We are proud to lead the industry with HTML5 tools while offering new, cutting–

edge features in Flash that are not yet supported in HTML5.

Is this expected to improve the relationship between Adobe and Apple?

Adobe and Apple have a longstanding relationship and Mac and iOS users are very

important to Adobe. Like with any other company in the industry we work closely with

Apple in specific areas like support for our Creative Suite products on Mac OS while we

compete in other areas like video editing tools.

What platforms and browsers will Adobe continue to support with Flash Player for
browsing?

Adobe plans to continue to support Apple Mac OS X and Safari; Google Chrome

Browser for Mac OS X, Microsoft Windows and Intel-based Chrome OS; Microsoft Intel based Windows and desktop Internet Explorer; and cooperate with other third-party

browser providers such as Mozilla and Opera.

How will content publishers serving premium video reach mobile devices?

Content publishers can continue to stream premium, Flash based video content across

platforms and devices including the iPhone and iPad using Flash Media Server

4.5. Additionally, content publishers can deliver premium video experiences as Flash

based applications packaged with AIR across platforms including connected TVs.

Does Adobe intend to bring HTML5’s capabilities to full parity with Flash
Player? If yes, then why continue supporting Flash Player for desktop?

HTML5 today cannot replace the Flash Player as a platform for delivering console

gaming or premium video experience on desktop computers. Adobe plans to leverage

its expertise around these use cases to help HTML5 catch up to the Flash Player, but

even with the rapid pace of innovation for HTML5 it will take time for HTML5 to catch up

to Flash.

Will Adobe create Flash Player for Windows 8 on ARM and Windows 8 on X86?

Adobe’s plan is to continue supporting Flash Player for browsing on desktops going

forward with Windows 8 on X86 only.

[supersonicecho]

Anyone else just take a big gulp after reading Adobe's FAQ?  It reads as if they don't see a reason to develop in flash/flex unless you need "console gaming or premium video experience". 

"HTML5 today cannot replace the Flash Player as a platform for delivering console gaming or premium video experience on desktop computers." But otherwise, yep go ahead and use HTML5.

Goddammit....  if Adobe doesn't believe business apps should be written in flex, what chance do I have convincing clients?... shi*

[pauland]

Anyone else just take a big gulp after reading Adobe's FAQ?  It reads as if they don't see a reason to develop in flash/flex unless you need "console gaming or premium video experience". 

It doesn't read like that to me and I don't understand why it reads like that to you.

Nothing has changed on the desktop.

On mobile, deployment has changed from the browser to Air - partially because some manufacturers are keeping the plugin from the browser.

Mobile app deployment is favoured by the end client as a deployable app not a browser plugin. Developers like appstores because it helps them in monetising and distributing their product.

Business apps in Flex on Mobile? What's the big deal?

HTML5 is flavour of the month and really is taking on the basic stuff that flash is known for. It's not a replacement for flash, but in basic roles it works well enough. For more demanding stuff, deployment as an app was going to be  preferred in any case.

what chance do I have convincing clients?... shi*

Well none, if you misread the situation so badly.

[supersonicecho]

No need to get snippy pal....

I hope you are right, I really do.  However, the tenor of their language is that they will support further development of flash only for things that HTML5 can't do, which is high def entertainment experiences apparently, and in the meantime they will work to get HTML5 up to feature parity with flash and develop tools to export flash to html5.  In other words, they are saying that flash will be replaced by HTML5 and that they are going to help speed along that process.  No mention of improving flash to stay out in front of HTML5 in any way other than video related features. How can you not read it negatively as a flex developer?

If yes, then why continue supporting Flash Player for desktop?

HTML5 today cannot replace the Flash Player as a platform for delivering console

gaming or premium video experience on desktop computers. Adobe plans to leverage

its expertise around these use cases to help HTML5 catch up to the Flash Player, but

even with the rapid pace of innovation for HTML5 it will take time for HTML5 to catch up

to Flash.

Regarding business apps or flex apps in general, the only reason they cite to use flash over html5 is console gaming or video experiences.  Not the greatest incentive for most flex folks.

No time table is given for phasing out flash, so for anyone who is looking to invest significant time or energy into flex, this is scary. 

Hopefully, this is simply a lack of communication and tomorrow I'll read all about the commitment to flash on the desktop and HTML5 is light-years away from flash, etc.

However, if you still think I am some moron who misreads everything, read the comments at the  official annoucement at http://blogs.adobe.com/flashplatform/2011/11/flash-to-focus-on-pc-browsing-and-mobile-apps-adobe-to-... . I am not the only one concerned.

[pauland]

Adobe screwed up badly with the way this broke the news. They should have been aware of how it might be perceived amongst not just developers, but the wider public and community. I absolutely agree that Adobe made a complete hash of breaking the news.

It's easier to focus on things being removed and use that to generate a negative news story that Adobe's rivals can use to advantage. In practice, what Adobe is saying is entirely reasonable.

As for being snippy, I'm not the one reading vastly more into the announcement than is there and helping fuel a negative view of flash and flex.

[supersonicecho]

Not sure how my reaction to Adobe's annoucement could be considered "snippy".  I don't think I am being curt or condescending, but semantics...

I understand why you are annoyed and I hope you are right that this is no big deal.

[Claudiu_Ursica]

I am surprised myself by this omissions towards enterprise. Flex is in my opinion best for developing enterprise RIA. However enterprise is the place where HTML5 is catching up best. Which will probably leave Flex as niche. So I don't think anyone can blame people being afraid of another focus shift from Adobe at that point. At this point is hard to convince people that Adobe would not drop the whole flex SDK just like that. At this point they are telling us in not so many words that flash is not part of the future web ...

C

[pauland]

At this point is hard to convince people that Adobe would not drop the whole flex SDK just like that. At this point they are telling us in not so many words that flash is not part of the future web ...

Man, there you go again..

[Claudiu_Ursica]

Sorry for my lack of positive thinking here. This kind of announcement happened not long ago - Silverlight anyone? I hope I am wrong and overeating. I guess time will tell.

C