Is Flex/Flash Builder dead?

[aligned2009]

I don't understand today's announcement. Is Flex/Flash Builder dead, or does desktop development continue, or do I continue developing and everything will magically work in mobile devices with AIR?

[Yozef0]

Then what alternative do I have today to Flex for RIAs?

Figuring out the right JS stack is Extreemly hard!! And if you get that right, you are most certainly not compatible with all browser. It is bull**** to call HTML5 a standard because each browser renders it differently.

So my question is... give me a replacement for Flex?!

My hope is Adobe export Flex to SWF, AIR and HTML5. We would be the most sought after developers. No doubt.

[drkstr_1]

My hope is Adobe export Flex to SWF, AIR and HTML5. We would be the most sought after developers. No doubt.

I think you hit on a very key point right there.

Right now, Flex developers are very valuable, much more valuable then a simple web developer. I think it's safe to say we are all very concerned about Flex losing it's presence. Adobe has a chance to leverage their existing technology and come out on top, all said and done. I just hope for all our sakes Adobe takes advantage of this opportunity and doesn't let all of our valuable Flex skills become irrelevant.

[Guest]

Remember when Flex builder was renamed to Flash Builder? Most people I know were baffled by the name change, and also by Adobe's handling of the message.

So now we know Adobe gets it messaging wrong sometimes, oh yes, and they aquired Flex/Flash when they acquired Macromedia, after a huge mis-step in the mid 90s by considering the internet irrelevant.

Funny how many (not all) of Adobe's top products come from Macromedia - Dreamweaver (do you use GoLive, is it even still being developed?), Fireworks seems more pervasive than Illustrator, Flash/Flex is at the center of the RIA/Cloud/SAAS space, and Kevin Lynch (former Macromedite) is CTO.

Friday rant, excuse me please... 🙂

[Guest]

@Gregory - Haha, good points.  Who took over who here?

As for the paranoia and FUD floating around.  Please, stop exaggerating a perfectly logical decision into something it isn't.  Most mobile device "apps" barely work as is (no matter how they're built), and most are so mind numblingly simple they don't need something like Flash.  Flash is still the primary answer to address the 500lb gorilla in the room: cross browser incompatibility.  Even HTML5 isn't the answer to that (what about CSS?), and since they've been trying to "standardize" these "standards" on the web for so many years (yet never come close), I have no confidence that the (increasing) number of browser vendors around now will suddenly decide to cooperate and make it all work next year.

Here's another silly argument I've been hearing: "Why develop in Flash (for desktop) and then have to do it all over again in HTML5 for mobile, when they can just write the app once in HTML5 for both?"  -  Gee, so HTML5 UIs written and optimized for desktop browsers can even magically optimize themselves into an efficiently designed mobile UI that fits on a 2x3 inch screen??  That's some pretty strong kool aid people are drinking if they believe that.  And that's what we're really talking about here in many cases - just the UI layer.  Server technology and languages don't (shouldn't...) care what renders the data they serve.

But I do add my +1 to targeting HTML5 for Flex.  I guess it'd be the first (and probably only) SDK able to target all 3 platforms.  Since HTML5 can't (and maybe never will) implement advanced Flash features, all three (+AIR) have their merits and strong points and aren't going away this decade.

[drkstr_1]

will Flex Export to HTML5 + the Right Javascript Stack, is that even possible ?

Why wouldn't it be possible? The Google WebKit (GWT) takes application code written in Java and outputs consistent HTML/CSS/JS.

I think AS3 is a much better language than Java for client-side GUI programming. It is absolutely possible for Adobe to turn the AS3/Flex technology stack into something far superior to GWT. The question is, will they?

[Guest]

Yozef0 wrote:

Just when the Web Became supper fun and easy to develop Beautiful Rich Apps, they tell us: "Sorry Folks"... Stick to the "Standards" - Something no browser follows consistently We're back to HTML4 (gotta write the component for every browser / OS). Don't Kid me... Each Browser compiles HTML and CSS differently.

And Animation framerates on Mobiles (even often Desktop Browsers) - SUCK. Very Jittery to any novel Flash Developer.

IE is going to create another Dent in HTML5 "Standards".

So as of Today, there is No Definitive Answer to Building Rich Apps for the "Web".

Absolutely agree Yozef!  here is a perfect example of web 'standards', the devcon5 website promoting the developer's and designer's conference. In IE 8, looks great, in firefox, the navigation bar at the top is wrecked!  so much for css and standards! Of course with flash deployment, we had a 'working standard!' .... sigh, sucks to be a developer/designer at the moment....

[Guest]

Also, if people are concerned about this issue, why not go to Adobe Ideas and vote for the Flex HTML5 compiler feature request?  Downvote all the higher "ideas" to prioritize this one if you're that concerned.

http://ideas.adobe.com/ct/ct_a_view_idea.bix?c=975F47A1-B925-4456-89DB-3BEFB1DA7780&idea_id=3AAF1D0A...

I'd like stuff like multithreading and better printing too, but if you're convinced HTML5 is needed to preserve the SDK...

[supersonicecho]

http://blogs.adobe.com/flex/2011/11/your-questions-about-flex.html

Someone explain to me how I am misreading the situation and this isn't terrible news for flex developers....

[Yozef0]

There was an important & frank live session last night on tinychat. There were around 200 developers, and notable evangelists in the Flash Flex arena.

One questoin that kept on rising (typed it on several occasion) but did not get a concrete answer is :

Would Flex export to HTML5 & JS?

Many techy evangelists said that it is technically possible. Now I am sure many, many of us are willing to Learn 'a little' changes in the way they develop, certainly not knowing JS and HTML like the way we know Flex & Actionscript today (not even sure it's possible to get out HTML what Flash& Flex Components can do), but to have the ability for Flex to export to Swf, Air and HTML5.

But the Questions still remains not concretely answered,and Adobe Must inform its developers about their intentions with Flex!

[pauland]

Would Flex export to HTML5 & JS?

Given the inability of the Flex team to fully port all the mx component functionality to Spark, I can't see Adobe managing another port of Flex to HTML5/JS, particularly when they are laying off people and transferring development effort into HTML5. Adobe is effectively pushing Flex development to a seperate entity with fewer developers.

[pauland]

"How does this affect other Flash Platform tools?

This news has no impact on the Flash platform tooling offerings (e.g. Flash Builder) from

Adobe."

This is a rather bizarre statement now when you consider what is happening with the Flex SDK. It would be nice to know what the future for Flash Builder is.

[drkstr_1]

Given the inability of the Flex team to fully port all the mx component functionality to Spark, I can't see Adobe managing another port of Flex to HTML5/JS, particularly when they are laying off people and transferring development effort into HTML5. Adobe is effectively pushing Flex development to a seperate entity with fewer developers.

They actually wouldn't need to port Flex at all if they do it right. All they would need to do is implement the flash player API in HTML5 so the compiled byte code (SWF) can be converted into the appropriate instruction set (whether that instruction set is HTML5, ARM, Actionscript Byte Code, etc. should be irrelevant to the developer).

I actually think this move away from flash player is a really good thing for Flex, assuming Adobe puts the same amount of time and resources into advancing the capabilities of HTML5 that were previously spent on advancing flash player.

I think it all really comes down to what kind of secret sauce they've been working on over the past couple of years. IMHO, if the shift in focus was a surprise hatchet job by the bean counters, we are all screwed. If however, this was simply the next step in a broader plan, I think our Flex skills will continue to be the hot commodity they are.

[Guest]

Project like xmlvm show a path that could be explorer, but in the other side a project like Jangaroo  could be a solution.

Both way I feel more and more that the future of flex depends of an HTML5 exportation. Fortunatly flex will be donated to an open-source foundation, so if the community want it we can reasonably hope that it will be high in the road map.

[pauland]

One of the issues for me is that while Macromedia and then Adobe championed Flex it had an authority about it and provided a toolset and a form of standardisation for building RIA systems. It meant that there would be a market out there for Flex developers and a way of standardising infrastructure.

If you remove that backing - remove the Adobe stamp it loses that authority and really without Flex, RIA development starts a return to the wild west of software development. Large companies are looking towards futures not the current status quo, so they want to know that their investment will be worthwhile and Adobes move puts that into jeopardy.

Adobe have seriously messed up in their decision making this time around.

[John_Hall]

Not that any of our opinions carry any weight with anyone in Adobe, but I'll thow my two cents in as a older programmer: This will happen again and again to you during your career. Don't get tied to the technology, get tied to the principles like OOP and unit testing. I don't think that desktop use of Flex is going anywhere, but if it does, I'll learn another technology where my skills will transfer fine. Having started programming in the mid-1970s, I feel confident in my perspective that one way or another, you will not be using the Flex framework in 10 years anyway because something better will come along (hey, we're supposed to finally get the official release of HTML5 by 2020 or something, aren't we). If you think your current project is best done in Flex right now, I would simply create a matrix of what you can accomplish if you stick with that mature technology for the next 5 years, as compared to trying to do the same thing in HTML5. If expressive, RIA clients is what you're targeting, there's not going to be any contest. If it's business applications that don't need eye candy for front-ends, there are many other options to check out.

The Flex SDK has been available open-source for some time and it hasn't fallen off the map.

On the other had, Adobe is developing a decent reputation for building tools so I'll certainly keep checking them out for IDE progressing and enhancement, regardless of what I compile my code to. And I expect to be using Flex and AIR for another 5-10 years. I'm still using ToolBook from the 1990s, a Paul Allen creation after he left Microsoft, and it continues to bring me a nice chunk of income every year.

I have no doubt that Gregory and other gurus on this forum will be leading the way on the next solution since it's the approach to problems that's the goal of good programming, not competence with one technology.

Having said that, can you believe Adobe is jerking us around like this 😉 I'm really mad.

[pauland]

I work as a freelancer and client demand fluctuates according to the changing acronym and buzzword winds that blow across the faces of the men in suits. These men in suits wobble according to the press tide of opinion, and while Flex is still as good as it was a week ago, the major change is that in the brains of the people who sign cheques, it now has a huge raincloud hanging over it. Last week it was bathed in sunshine.

I think the way it's been handled has dented Adobe's credibility and commitment too.

[rtalton]

I agree with just about everything being written here.. Having just read the Flex Team blog post re: "the open sourcing" of Flex, I'm extremely frustrated. It was posted on a Saturday! What a chickensh*t move.

There really is no substitute for Flex. It's back to .NET and Visual Studio to build entire websites with. I cannot recommend using Flex anymore since Adobe has pulled the plug on it & Flash for mobile. The desktop version of the Flash plugin is next, I suppose, and with it everything we depend on for web apps built with Flex. Everyone now "knows" that Flash is dead, and perception is everything. What Steve Jobs couldn't finish, it took Adobe only a couple of days to do. Great work, Adobe!

R.I.P. Flex: 11/12/2011

http://www.peterelst.com/blog/2011/11/09/et-tu-adobe-flash-player-homicide/

Online petition asking Adobe CEO Shantanu Narayen to step down:

http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-shantanu-narayen-to-step-down-as-ceo?utm_medium=twitte...

[Guest]

When reading financial statements, sometimes a single sentence is the key to knowing whether to buy or sell.

Here is the smoking gun in the FAQ Adobe blog entry from another contributor (http://blogs.adobe.com/flex/2011/11/your-questions-about-flex.html😞

Will Adobe continue to support customers using Flex?

Yes. Adobe will continue to honor existing Flex support contracts.

Continue to honor existing Flex support contract?

honor  -  existing  -  contracts ?

Bye bye Flex.

[Guest]

First i really feel bad about the millions of AS3/Flex devs out there. The Flash platform is really going down right now. Atleast when it comes to enterprise applications.

If you are writing games you should be good for some time.

I remember coming to this forum a year or two before saying that future of web development will be tools like GWT.

At Emitrom we saw the potential of what can be done we both platform. We also knew that HTML5 soon or later will come strong so we had to prepare

our customer withs a nice transition possibility in the case Flex/Flash will die.

With that in mind we create  Gwt4Flex http://www.emitrom.com/gwt4flex.

Because the project leverages GWT switching to full HTML5 would be easier as changing the implementation of the UI layer for platform where Flash is not supported.

The backend code would remain the same. Something you cant do with a AS3 based Flex project.

Unfortunatly the reaction here was not that great. We wrote tons of emails to Adobe asking them for support. We never got an answer. Well actually only one Engineer answered me but he could not do much. What he told me is that he thinks the idea is  great but i should not expect a lot of help from the evangelist at Adobe since they makes thier living promoting AS3 development. Java(GWT) does not fit in there even if it moves the Flex platform more towards HTML5.

A couple of years later It looks like i was not that wrong after all.

Atleast today we are happy to tell our customer that they might have to implement a new UI layer in their application but 90% of their code based will remain the same.

Flex we will miss you.

[-BoNzO-]

Yes Flex is dead unfortunately. Not because it was inferior though; In the end Adobe just had to jump on the HTML5 bandwagon full time because it's apparently what customers want now; Not because it makes more sense to use HTML5 for enterprise development (lol, it sounds funny just to write it, try it)  Good luck to all devs who will stick to "web" development and have to put up with a much more flawed technology.

[Guest]

Maybe I'm alone, but honestly I couldn't care less about Flash on mobile.  And given the much higher cost of supporting Flash mobile vs Flash desktop, with mobile wasting Adobe resources that should have been going towards Flex and Flash desktop, good riddance.  The bad thing is that the 4.5 release (mobile dev features?) was a misstep and a waste.  That, I am a little ticked off about.  I could have told Adobe's clueless MBAs or whoever made that call that it was idiotic, years ago.  All those resources could have gotten us an HTML5 compiler, or whatever else by now, which would boost Flash Builder sales.

But really, who needs Flex on mobile anyway? Those things can barely run any app, and most of them are simplistic UIs with no serious complexity.  Who cares about mobile Flash!  What's Flash's desktop deployment rate today?  Where I work, it's 100%...

Adobe temporarily got caught up in the mobile platform hype, and just now are starting to come to their senses.  The decision was correct, although I'd agree that the PR aspect of the decision couldn't have been worse.

[orgreeno]

Unfortunately, perception is reality. The perception is that Flash is going away and the ball is in Adobe's court to convince people otherwise.

[Guest]

I don't see why you think that mobile is a waste. I develop in Flex for mobile and am having good results. I had some frustrations with learning the Flex mobile platform which I think are items that Adobe will fix going forward, but now that I know it, I don't see me giving it up for a long time. I learned Java 10 years ago. I still have found no reason to learn C# (even though I'd like to some day... I have no REASON to and thus I do not). The same will likely be true for me with Flex. I have an RIA that compiles to all platforms I use, the result is excellent and I know it works. Why would I dump it now? Adobe has a full year (at least) to gain many others like me and I'd bet that even after HTML5 is fully being adopted there will still be plenty of relevance for Flex Mobile.

[pauland]

Take a look here for a rather more expansive and positive explanation of Adobe's plans:

http://blogs.adobe.com/flex/2011/11/your-questions-about-flex.html

[mlprouty]

I tried to work with HTML5 in Flash Builder. This capability is supposed to be available. The video tag did not work. Looking for support, I could find nothing. Things seem to date back to the early 2010's. For me, Flash Builder is dead.