Help! Pantone 362 in FrameMaker looks fine on-screen, but LIME in PDF!

[smathers]

Help! I have to use Pantone 362 in FrameMaker (FM) for some fonts and lines and all looks fine on-screen in FM, but when I create the PDF, it turns to a LIME color, ahhh! I need this template done ASAP, and cannot find anything in the Help or Forums. Can anyone help me ASAP? Thank you!

Also, if this helps, the graphic artist specified that it should be Pantone 362 (C70 Y90) in CMYK---I see no "(C70 Y90) in CMYK" in FM's choices.

[Bob_Niland]

People with more color management expertise that I have may respond, but they are apt to want to know:

• What platform (Windows, Unix, mac)?
• What Frame version?
• What rendering workflow (print to .ps, Distill to PDF?)
• What settings in Distiller?

In case your searching of various Frame forums didn't make it obvious, Frame has no real color management, and the only platform Frame still runs on usually wrecks the colors anyway.

If you are on Windows, your CYMK settings are illusory. Other than CMYK colors in EPS imported objects, CMYK colors get crushed to RGB by Mr.Bill.

The Pantone and other color libraries may tag spot colors by name for matching by your print service bureau, but their use seems also largely illusory in Frame and has no influence on PDF display. I am not aware of any specification of what color model (say, sRGB, Adobe RGB, SWOP) in which these libraries are declaring their colors.

I have determined that it is possible to specify RGB values that are preserved into PDF. I'm using sRGB color space, and set "Tag all images for color management" in Distiller, with sRGB selected as the color model.

If you can get your artist to give you an sRGB equivalent for the desired Pantone (and 362 appears to be in-gamut for sRGB), then that might be the solution.

fonts and lines and all looks fine on-screen in FM, but

In order to get fonts to match other graphics, you'll need to specify "Tag everything for color management". This has a dark side. It causes your ordinary black text to be coded as composite black. This can result is extremely slow printing from PDF, and potentially ugly (dark green) text on color printers.

[smathers]

Thank you so much for responding! Here are answers & below screenshot of my Distiller settings:

• Platform = Windows
• Frame version = 8
• Rendering workflow = I print to .ps and then distill to PDF.
• What settings in Distiller? I tried the "Tag all images for color management" in Distiller with sRGB selected as the color model, but it still came out lime---however, when I chose "Convert All Colors to CMYK" it kept the green color BUT then greyed out my images!!! I have attached a screenshot of the settings---can you see it?
• sRGB = The artist had no idea was sRGB was (he is not really helpful at all...).

Any suggestions on how to get my images back...? Thanks so much.

[Mike Wickham]

Also, if this helps, the graphic artist specified that it should be

Pantone 362 (C70 Y90)

> in CMYK---I see no "(C70 Y90) in CMYK" in FM's choices.

I have no experience with Pantone colors, but since the graphic artist

gave you a CMYK equivalent, see if this helps you:

1. Create a new color definition in FrameMaker (View> Color>

Definitions) that has values of Process, CMYK, C70, and Y90. You might

want to name it Pantone 362.

2. Then, in maker.ini, change the "GetLibraryColorRGBFromCMYK=" setting

from "Printing" to "None". The latter setting usually gives the best

color matches in PDF output.

[Bob_Niland]

... change the "GetLibraryColorRGBFromCMYK=" setting from "Printing" to "None". The latter setting usually gives the best color matches in PDF output.

"best color match" isn't necessarily "color match".

According to Dov, in another thread, Windows, even with pretend CMYK support, is still crushing CMYK to RGB in the GDI. So getting precise colors is presumably still tough in any color models other than RGB.

What I'd be tempted to do is:

• Ask the artist to provide a PDF that contains what the artist thinks is a correct Pantone 362.
• Display the PDF in Acrobat Reader. (I might be tempted to turn color management off, if on, because most end users won't have it on either.)
  
• Grab a screenshot. Get the RGB values of the color.
• Start with those RGB values for your text and art in Frame.
  
• Render to PDF, with color management turned off (to avoid the composite black text problem).
• Check results with screenshots to Photoshop.
• If no match, adjust the Frame RGB values and repeat the render until you get a match to the artist's PDF.

The last time I had this problem, I ended up doing all the color-critical elements as imported CMYK EPS objects; lines, icons, even some text.

[Mike Wickham]

According to Dov, http://forums.adobe.com/message/3494571#3494571, Windows, even with pretend CMYK support, is still crushing CMYK to RGB in the GDI. So getting precise colors is presumably still tough in any color models other than RGB.

>

Absolutely, which is why I put all my graphics into EPS format. They

pass around the Windows GDI and into the PDF unchanged. And I never use

Save as PDF. I print to the Adobe PDF virtual printer.

[Gast]

Strange, weird, but true: FrameMaker will not respect the CMYK values of a color definition unless you (a) use the Save As function and (2) do NOT select the "Convert CMYK colors to RGB" box. Try doing it that way and see if it comes out better. If you have Acrobat 9--and I highly recommend it if you must check the color accuracy of your PDF--you can check the CMYK value of colors to see if the values in your color definition have been correctly used in the PDF.

I don't know what "C70 Y90" means. Get your artist to tell you the exact CMYK values for this color. Create a color definition. name it whatever you want. In the Print As field, select "Process". In the model field select "CMYK". enter the CMYK values your artist gives you.

Then apply this color to your object or text or whatever, create the PDF using Save As, do not check that box I mentioned above, and see if the color is better.

tip: your color values window may have many definitions that start with FM_Gen. Don't worry about them. FM creates them when you apply conditional text. Don't bother trying to delete them. they will come right back. They don't hurt anything.

Good luck!

-- Becky

[smathers]

Hi Becky, I just answered the previous responder & thank you as well for your response! What tool are you saying that I use the Save As function in---FrameMaker or Distiller? FM nor Distiller have "Convert CMYK colors to RGB" box. Thank you!

[Gast]

RE your comments:

* you can't print to ps and then distill--you have to use the Save As function if you want the PDF to accurately reproduce the colors in your color definitions

* Distiller settings are not your problem, I think. I bet thatyour color definition for this color is incorrect. Also, if you are creating the PDF by printing to PostScript, as mentioned that won't work.

* Try this: Open FrameMaker. Open distiller. In Distiller select Press Quality. In FrameMaker, select all your files and then do File > Save As. In the Save As box, make sure that the Press Quality distiller setting shows. Click OK (or whatever it shows). See if the doc looks better.

* did you fix the color definition as I described before?

[Gast]

Smathers, feel free to email me directly. I might be able to help you. I routinely create color-correct CMYK PDFs from FrameMaker 9.0.

rebecca.edmondson@thermo.com

[smathers]

Thank you everyone!!! I have played around with this, and due to my timing issue, I just worked with the CMYK levels until I got as close to the green color as possible, and it looks like a match both onscreen in the PDF and when printed! I will print all these comments out tho for a later time when I have time to check them all out. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you!!!