Table refuses to spread across multiple pages

[satisfied_Moonbeam7224]

I'm mystified. I have an FM topic that lists a series of error code tables. It's organized something like this:

Heading level 1

Body text for description of the multiple error code tables to follow

Heading level 2 (1st category name for error codes, followed by the anchor mark, aka, upside down T)

Table 1

Heading level 2 (2nd category name for error codes, folowed by the anchor mark)

Table 2

Heading level 2 (3rd category name for error codes, folowed by the anchor mark)

Table 3 ...

... and so forth.

The problem lives here in this section:

Heading level 1

Body text for description of what follows

[MASSIVE GAP ON FIRST PAGE]

Heading level 2 (begins the next page)

Table 1

I've read numerous forum entries and watched a few videos, and I'm still baffled by the fact that I can't simply bring that first Heading Level 2 up beneath the body text below the heading level 1 and remove that gap on the first page (which, as I've said, leaves the first page empty except for the heading 1 and text. This looks ridiculous). I don't mind if the tables break between rows over subsequent pages.

I've played with orphan rows and table start settings, and I can't make that dreaded county-sized white space go away. Did I miss the boat when evenly spaced content running page to page fell out of vogue? Or am I (hopefully) missing some setting that will solve the problem for me?

My deep and sincere thanks in advance.

[Bob_Niland]

The table will be anchored to a paragraph of some format, often empty and only apparent if Text Symbols are enable to show the ⊥.

What are the Keep With Next/Prev settings for that anchor para?
… and the para following the rogue table?

[satisfied_Moonbeam7224]

Bob,

Thanks for the reply and question. That encouraged me to look at the Paragraph Designer > Pagination tab settings you mentioned. I selected both "Keep With" checkboxes for the style preceding the anchored style and the style anchored to the table, with the expectation it would pull them all together. At first I observed it did. But after applying this logic to subsequent tables, it has forced the formatting into the original, undesirable state.

In the following/attached images, you can see "Previous Paragraph" and "Next Paragraph" are selected for the Body 1 style preceding the H2 heading AND the H2 heading anchored to the table. And that large field of white space has come to visit again. Hmm. 

I won't be surprised if I'm simply not understanding some logic with FM formatting, and configuring paragraph styles willy-nilly out of desperation to make something I don't like go away.

[satisfied_Moonbeam7224]

A little more information. It appears there is a page break or some similar setting that is directing all H2 paragraph styles to begin at the top of a new page. I've reviewed the settings again in the Paragraph Designer for H2 and I don't see anything that would configure this arrangement. Is there possibly a setting that directs a certain style to always start on a new page?

[Bob_Niland]

Paragraph Designer /Pagination\ Start: [____]
Is one of the controls for where a para will be placed. If you ever use the
Insert🞃Page Break…
feature, it applies /Pagination\ Start: [Top of Page]
to the currently selected para, as an override; not obvious, and easily lost.
FM has no page break metadata object per se, as some other DTPs and WPs do.

There are multiple things that control where a para appears on a page. When not desired, it usually turns out that FM is doing what some author told it to do, at some point in the document's history.

[frameexpert]

Can you meet so I can see the document? Or email it to me? rick at frameexpert dot com

There is a combination of settings that effect pagination with and around tables.

[Barb Binder]

Hi @satisfied_Moonbeam7224:

I think the quickest way to resolve this is to accept Rick's offer to share the file with him.

In case that isn't an option:

Is there possibly a setting that directs a certain style to always start on a new page?

Yes. Your Heading2 has been told to start at the top of the page. Try changing it to Anywhere and then click on Update Style to update all occurences of Heading2 in that file. Then they will behave like the Heading1 in your screenshot.

Also, be cautious with the Keep with settings. If every paragraph is said to keep with the next and the previous paragraph, nothing is going to be allowed to break and ideally, the settings are ignored. Sometimes the file just gives up and crashes.

~Barb

[satisfied_Moonbeam7224]

Hi Barb (and Rick and Matt),

Thank you all for replying and making suggestions and/or offering to take a look at this formatting puzzle I was having. Bingo! The issue with getting the heading-level-2-and-anchored-table duo to cooperate and fall in line immediately below the heading level 1 is resolved. I believe it was a matter of setting the heading level 2 style to "Keep With: Previous Paragraph + Next Paragraph" that allowed for this. Of course, when you're confused and desparate, you grasp at anything that might possibly make a difference. So I hope that selecting both of these doesn't pose any problems in the future (like FM crashing). 

If it were simply a matter of simple paragraph styles following one another, I don't think this would have been as confusing as I found it. But when one of the styles in question is anchored to a (table) frame, I wonder, could this possibly alter the rules for how styles interact with one another and flow together down the page? There are still cases where gaps between pairs of heading level 2 and anchored tables refuse to close ranks.

 

 

You can see where that small table and its header at the bottom of the images could fit easily on the page above. (By the way, you can see the table designer and paragraph designer styles for the Heading Level 2 and table in the above images.) But the small table won't fill the gap. Nevertheless, it doesn't have a problem sharing the page with a second small table and the start of another.

I suspect this has to do with some logic with the anchored frames. And that's a logic I haven't yet been able to absorb through the relatively short experience I have with FM. But I need to move on, and I suppose I can live with this for now. I'm leaving a long-winded response in case it might be of use to someone else. And I wanted to thank you all. Hugely appreciated.

[Winfried Reng]

Hi,

I see that your table anchors are at the end of the preceeding heading paragraphs.

You would have more control, and your document would be better structured and clearer, if you put the table anchor into an empty paragraph "anchortable" (or another name which fits for you).

Then you can set the heading paragraph to keep with next paragraph. And there wouldn't be any conflicts, if you only have a heading paragraph with an anchor and nothing else in this section. In such a case "keep with next" would mean to be on the same page as the following heading. This is not what you want. Therefore better two separate paragraphs for the heading and for the table anchor.

Additionally you can set the table to start at the top of a page with the paragraph Page Break pod reliably.

Set the spacing below of the empty anchor paragraph to the negative value of spacing above.

E.g. spacing above 11 pt, spacing below -11 pt.

Then in the table designer Table Margin Top to the same negative value. In this example -11 pt.

Then the table will be pulled on top of the paragraph anchor.

Best regards, Winfried

[Matt-Tech Comm Tools]

And here is where you'll start to see personal styles emerge...

I recommend to my clients/students that you do not use that anchor paragraph tag, but that's more of a bar room bet discussion than strict FrameMaker best practices.

What I do see is that you have table titles masquerading as section titles.

If your table titles were actual table titles, they would be more easily managed, especially when your tables split across page breaks (you would have the option of using table continuation and table sheet variables to display Title (cont.) and (sheet 2 of 6) on following pages) 

[satisfied_Moonbeam7224]

Thanks, Matt. Yes, there was a lot of residual experimentation on display in the file. In the end I simplified and got things to flow in line. But it took a good deal of trial and error. I will now experiment with the table variables you mention.

[satisfied_Moonbeam7224]

Thanks, Winfried. Your suggestions led the way to final success. Much appreciated.

[Barb Binder]

Hi @satisfied_Moonbeam7224:

There are so many things to look for to solve this (but it is solvable)!

I suggest looking into anchoring positions (and I have a video that covers this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmMxRCHlOK4), and also removing the double ¶¶s visible in your screen shots, and if the breaking is still an issue, I would remove all of the Keep Settings to allow everything thing to fall sequentially one under the next, and then add them back in judiciously, one at a time, until you get the result you are after. 

~Barb

[Matt-Tech Comm Tools]

Barb's suggestion of removing the Keeps is a great one. Get rid of the dependencies, then add them back as needed.

[satisfied_Moonbeam7224]

Thanks again, Barb. Your video was helpful. I'm glad you included that. These tables are simply a long list of error codes and they don't need anything but cells to hold data and a heading to keep them separate and discernable in a TOC. So here's what finally worked:

1. The "Anchor" paragraph style between the heading and the table, which Winfried above suggested. I reduced the line spacing heavily for it.

2. The Heading level 2 style with "Keep With: Next Paragraph. Here I increased the line spacing above it to create a buffer with the bottom of the previous table, and I reduced the spacing to zero below it so it sits closer to the table in introduces. 

3. "Start: Anywhere" for the two styles as well as the table style intself.

And that's that. Thanks so much. It's good to have people out there willing to help.

[Matt-Tech Comm Tools]

It sounds like you have conflicts between keeps, starts, and other pagination options. I'd be happy to take a peek at it if you want to request a time at https://mattconsult.youcanbook.me/

If you want to meet asap, just pick a time and put that in the notes.

**EDIT** I just saw Rick's offer to do the same... hopefully he's already gotten you squared away! If not, let me know.