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Develop module more pixelated than library module - why?

Forum|Forum|6 years ago
August 2, 2019
6 replies
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The 1st attached pic is a screen shot of part of an image zoomed 11:1 in library module, 2nd is same thing done in develop mode and looks more pixelated. Am I correct in believing the image shown in library mode is a preview / jpeg one and the one one in develop is the actual raw image? If so why does the develop module one look less detailed than the library one? By the way if I turn on 'use graphics processor they both look pixelated.

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Correct answer Todd Shaner

At the link provided by Akash Sharma I explain why the Library and Develop module previews look different. I've copied that text below.

"The Develop module uses a simpler algorithm for creating the Loupe preview to prevent adjustment slider lag. The Library module creates a Preview file, which is created using the Bicubic algorithm (same as the Export module), which provides much more accurate interpolation. BTW- The most accurate view in the Library module are the pyramid Zoom settings 1:16, 1:8, 1:4, etc. rather than Fit of Fill. This is because a 2nd interpolation is applied to Fit and Fill previews, which may slightly soften the image detail. The 1:1 view is the most accurate, but of little value for most viewing purposes."

Both the Library module and Export modules use Bicubic interpolation. Because of this the Library preview is actually the most accurate since it reflects what you will see if exporting the image file to a larger size (i.e. upscaled).

andrewb99642613 wrote
Why the library view looks 'better' with the gpu on is a mystery but I think I'll just leave it off.

If the Library module looks the same (i.e. pixelated) as the Develop module at >1:1 Zoom view the most likely cause is an incompatible graphics driver.

K

Knicker

Participating Frequently

A parallel thread to this one was started by the OP here on Digital Photography Review (DPR). The "answer" post here along with the post by the Adobe staff member (Akash Sharma) were cited in the DPR thread as authoritative. I expect that the "answer" post and this thread in general might also be cited in the future in other threads in this forum (just like the related 2017 thread was referenced above). Therefore, it's important to get things right and to be clear about what's really going on in the Adobe products when the user zooms in and zooms out. As things stand now, there are two statements that are incorrect or, at least, unclear and easily misinterpreted. First there is this statement by Todd Shaner in the "Answer" post:

If the Library module looks the same (i.e. pixelated) as the Develop module at >1:1 Zoom view the most likely cause is an incompatible graphics driver.

Second, this statement in Akash Sharma's post:

Develop module shows the rendered preview of your image but it is best viewed in 1:1 ratio. This means that your GPU processor have some issues and is showing the rendered preview pixelated.

As best I can tell both of these claims are based on an incorrect assumption that Adobe uses the same interpolation and resampling process for zooming in on the image display as it does when zooming out. The referenced 2017 thread discussed how, when zooming out, there may be differences in the appearance of the displayed image between the Library and Develop modules. That's correct. It's also true in Photoshop vs ACR, depending on how Photoshop's image interpolation preference is set in the Preferences > General tab. However, something different happens when you zoom in. As far as I can tell, all of the Adobe display modes being discussed here disregard interpolation when zooming in because the whole point of zooming in is to magnify the actual pixel structure at the current pixel dimension settings. Thus, pixelation is exactly what one should expect when zooming in. This is easily confirmed by just going to any image and zooming to 8:1 in LR or 800% in PS. You will see the actual pixel structure of the image magnified and more visible. You will NOT see the pixels interpolated so that edges appear smooth. In this regard, zooming in is fundamentally different from an actual image upsizing/resampling to 800%. When upsizing/resampling through an export in LR or image size change in PS, Adobe is indeed applying an interpolation algorithm. Depending on which algorithm is applied (in PS), you'll get varying degrees of pixelation/smoothing. In particular, it's noteworthy that use of the "nearest neighbor" option will result in a highly pixelated look that's virtually identical when displayed at 100% to what a 800% zoomed display of the original image (pre-upsizing) looks like.

With that in mind, the two quoted statements above need to be reconsidered. Images viewed at a zoomed setting in the Library module should normally look pixelated, just as they do when zoomed in in the Develop module. At least, that's what I see (and expect to see) in LR Classic CC when I look (regardless of whether the GPU acceleration is turned on or off). Likewise, "the rendered preview" looking "pixelated" in the OP's zoomed in screen grabs is expected and, therefore, is not a symptom of the GPU having problems. Of the two screen grabs posted by the OP, the pixelated one is the expected on in both modules. The real mystery is why his Library module (not the Develop module) image viewed zoomed in showed antialiasing-type smoothing when the OP's GPU was turned on. It appears that the GPU is stepping on the Library modules zoom function and imposing an antialiasing algorithm to it, but is (correctly) not interfering with the Develop module's zoom function. Whatever the source of the problem, the bottom line is that visible pixelation when zooming in is the expected and correct behavior by which "incompatible graphics driver" issues must be assessed.

TheDigitalDog

Inspiring

Knicker wrote
The referenced 2017 thread discussed how, when zooming out, there may be differences in the appearance of the displayed image between the Library and Develop modules. That's correct.
It's also true in Photoshop vs ACR, depending on how Photoshop's image interpolation preference is set in the Preferences > General tab.

I don't believe that's at all correct either; this setting in Photoshop's preferences has no role over previewing data on-screen when zooming, nor do I see any difference doing so. It's used for actually resizing (interpolating) the document data.

Photoshop image size and resolution

Photoshop resamples images using an interpolation method to assign color values to any new pixels based on the color values of existing pixels. You can choose which method to use in the Image Size dialog box.

Nearest Neighbor

A fast but less precise method that replicates the pixels in an image. This method is for use with illustrations containing edges that are not anti-aliased, to preserve hard edges and produce a smaller file. However, this method can produce jagged effects, which become apparent when you distort or scale an image or perform multiple manipulations on a selection.

Bilinear

A method that adds pixels by averaging the color values of surrounding pixels. It produces medium-quality results.

Bicubic

A slower but more precise method based on an examination of the values of surrounding pixels. Using more complex calculations, Bicubic produces smoother tonal gradations than Nearest Neighbor or Bilinear.

Bicubic Smoother

A good method for enlarging images based on Bicubic interpolation but designed to produce smoother results.

Bicubic Sharper

A good method for reducing the size of an image based on Bicubic interpolation with enhanced sharpening. This method maintains the detail in a resampled image. If Bicubic Sharper oversharpens some areas of an image, try using Bicubic.

You can specify a default interpolation method to use whenever Photoshop resamples image data. Choose Edit > Preferences > General (Windows) or Photoshop > Preferences > General (Mac OS), and then choose a method from the Image Interpolation Methods menu.

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

K

Knicker

Participating Frequently

thedigitaldog wrote
Knicker wrote
The referenced 2017 thread discussed how, when zooming out, there may be differences in the appearance of the displayed image between the Library and Develop modules. That's correct.
It's also true in Photoshop vs ACR, depending on how Photoshop's image interpolation preference is set in the Preferences > General tab.
I don't believe that's at all correct either; this setting in Photoshop's preferences has no role over previewing data on-screen when zooming, nor do I see any difference doing so. It's used for actually resizing (interpolating) the document data.

It's my understanding that the interpolation method used in zooming out in ACR is fixed. You can, however, change the interpolation method in PS itself by changing the setting in preferences. (Like Todd advised for testing LR, you need to be sure to close and restart PS to see the difference). Try setting the preference to Bicubic Sharper in preferences, close/reopen PS, zoom out to an uneven percentage and do a screen grab. Rinse and repeat with Bicubic. The screen grabs should show a noticeable difference.

GoldingD

Legend

I do not recall an bug like this related to LR Classic v8.2.1, so an update might not be the solution.

But, I also, do not remember a system requirement that would preclude you from updating to v8.3.1

A

andrewb99642613Author

Participant

I manually updated the drivers recently. I'm satisfied that the pixelated view (in develop) is actually the correct one to be editing, and that's the main issue. Why the library view looks 'better' with the gpu on is a mystery but I think I'll just leave it off. Thanks for your help

Todd ShanerCorrect answer

Legend

At the link provided by Akash Sharma I explain why the Library and Develop module previews look different. I've copied that text below.

"The Develop module uses a simpler algorithm for creating the Loupe preview to prevent adjustment slider lag. The Library module creates a Preview file, which is created using the Bicubic algorithm (same as the Export module), which provides much more accurate interpolation. BTW- The most accurate view in the Library module are the pyramid Zoom settings 1:16, 1:8, 1:4, etc. rather than Fit of Fill. This is because a 2nd interpolation is applied to Fit and Fill previews, which may slightly soften the image detail. The 1:1 view is the most accurate, but of little value for most viewing purposes."

Both the Library module and Export modules use Bicubic interpolation. Because of this the Library preview is actually the most accurate since it reflects what you will see if exporting the image file to a larger size (i.e. upscaled).

andrewb99642613 wrote
Why the library view looks 'better' with the gpu on is a mystery but I think I'll just leave it off.

If the Library module looks the same (i.e. pixelated) as the Develop module at >1:1 Zoom view the most likely cause is an incompatible graphics driver.

GoldingD

Legend

So using google to see how one would check for an AMD GPU driver update leads me to:

How to Find Driver Information and Check for Updates Within Radeon Settings | AMD

Remember that using Windows update is not the way to handle GPU driver updates.

GoldingD

Legend

Inquiry, what is your System Information as shown by Lightroom?

In LR click on Help, then System Information, then Copy. Paste that into a reply.

Interested in data from first line down to just past plug-in info.

Mostly interested in LR version, OS build, Display resolution, GPU make/model and driver version, if LR is using DirectX (WIN) or Metal (MAC) instead of OpenGL (troublesome), and any known troublesome plug-ins (probably having nothing to do with your issue), but the overkill is just fine and easier.

A

andrewb99642613Author

Participant

I made an error in my first post - "if I turn on 'use graphics processor they both look pixelated" should have read "if I turn OFF 'use graphics processor' both library preview and develop view look pixelated". On very close examination the images appear identical at 1:1 (between library & develop modules) but when zoomed past 1:1 the library image appears to have softer edges to individual pixels. It appears to me that the GPU is effectively up-scaling the image in the library module when zoomed in past 1:1. I guess there is no way to know what the gpu is doing but I sure would like to duplicate the effect as I want to print some small images at large scale, I am going to try re-sizing them in photoshop. Both monitors are calibrated with the latest datacolor device. Here are my system specs as requested:

Lightroom Classic version: 8.2.1 [ 1206193 ]

License: Creative Cloud

Language setting: en

Operating system: Windows 10 - Home Premium Edition

Version: 10.0.18362

Application architecture: x64

System architecture: x64

Logical processor count: 8

Processor speed: 4.0 GHz

Built-in memory: 16319.4 MB

Real memory available to Lightroom: 16319.4 MB

Real memory used by Lightroom: 1165.3 MB (7.1%)

Virtual memory used by Lightroom: 1935.7 MB

GDI objects count: 820

USER objects count: 2692

Process handles count: 2910

Memory cache size: 1.3MB

Internal Camera Raw version: 11.2.1 [ 159 ]

Maximum thread count used by Camera Raw: 5

Camera Raw SIMD optimization: SSE2,AVX,AVX2

Camera Raw virtual memory: 462MB / 8159MB (5%)

Camera Raw real memory: 472MB / 16319MB (2%)

System DPI setting: 120 DPI

Desktop composition enabled: Yes

Displays: 1) 1920x1080, 2) 2560x1440

Input types: Multitouch: No, Integrated touch: No, Integrated pen: No, External touch: No, External pen: No, Keyboard: No

Graphics Processor Info:

DirectX: AMD Radeon (TM) R9 390 Series (8.17.10.1404)

Application folder: C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe Lightroom Classic CC

Library Path: C:\Users\andrew bennett\Pictures\Lightroom\Lightroom Catalog-2.lrcat

Settings Folder: C:\Users\andrew bennett\AppData\Roaming\Adobe\Lightroom

Installed Plugins:

1) AdobeStock

2) Facebook

3) Flickr

4) LogiOptions

5) Nikon Tether Plugin

Config.lua flags: None

Adapter #1: Vendor : 1002

Device : 67b0

Subsystem : 6566103c

Revision : 80

Video Memory : 8171

Adapter #2: Vendor : 1414

Device : 8c

Subsystem : 0

Revision : 0

Video Memory : 0

GoldingD

Legend

From your system info, nothing stands out yet.

However, I notice LogiOptions plugin. Be aware of:

Logitech mouse, keyboards could be vulnerable to 'MouseJack' - Business Insider

Vulnerability: Logitech Options users should uninstall immediately (updated)

GoldingD

Legend

You are wrong, you never ever see RAW images in anything. In Lightroom you see JPEG previews.

Why There are 6 Types of Lightroom Previews and How to Use Them

Also, note that Library module uses a different color space for viewing than the Develop module. Library uses Adobe RGB, Develop uses ProPhotoRGB, you cannot specify other.

How to manage color in Lightroom Classic

https://digital-photography-school.com/everything-need-know-lightroom-colour-space/

Now one oddity is found in Preferences, in the Performance tab, the option to use Graphics Processor. That option is not all it should be. More useful for 4K and beyond, and a bit hit and miss in what GPUs work with it or not. Often it can make things worse. And it will affect Develop module, it will not affect Library module. Try it on, then off, each rig can be different.

https://www.lightroomqueen.com/lightroom-performance-debunking-myths/

A fairly new wrinkle in this is the capability to use embedded previews, they could look even worse, but for the Library module. And apparently not when you zoom in.

https://havecamerawilltravel.com/lightroom/lightroom-classic-new-embedded-previews/

Ok, that one does not at all relate to your issue.

And to throw another variable in the mix is calibration (profile) of the monitor. Although that could show up in colors being off, not the pixelation.

How to manage color in Lightroom Classic

I would expect the Develop to look better than the Library.

Akash Sharma

Legend

Hi Andrewb,

Sorry that Lightroom is showing your images with some grain unexpectedly in the Develop module with 11:1 zoom in ratio.

The actual preview of an image in Develop module cab only be viewed at 1:1 zoom in.

This discussion might be helpful: Image in Lightroom Develop Module looks dramatically different than image in Library module or exported image. How do I …

Am I correct in believing the image shown in library mode is a preview / jpeg one and the one one in develop is the actual raw image?

That is correct. Develop module shows the rendered preview of your image but it is best viewed in 1:1 ratio.

This means that your GPU processor have some issues and is showing the rendered preview pixelated. Could you please take a look at this article Adobe Lightroom GPU Troubleshooting and FAQ and let us know if that helps?

Thanks,

Akash

A

andrewb99642613Author

Participant

"This means that your GPU processor have some issues and is showing the rendered preview pixelated"

This is not the problem, the preview looks sharper than the develop view. The theads above all assume the opposite. Another way to ask the question would be "Why does turning off GPU pixelate library view"?

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