LR3 Slow Rendering

[Si_Guy_aka_Rayeza]

Just thought id post this up.. see if anyone else is having probs.. everytime i make an image adj, esp in the basic tab the image only fully renders if i zoom into it.. this is getting on my nerves now.. and also they seem to have removed the really close magnification on the zoom.. another feature missed for me.

PLSPLSPLS Adobe...

Continual rendering or atleast the option..

And the super zoom back.

Aaaaathankingyou.

[JayS_In_CT]

Sharpshooter 007 wrote:

I am seeing some improvement but I don't think we are quite there yet. I am running a 30" monitor at 2560 x 1600 with the latest Nvidia driver (released yesterday).  I have the catalog preview settings at 2048 and High Quality.  I have re-rendered  individual previews but I still see a distinct softness in the library preview.  It does go away if I render a 1:1 or zoom in and out.  Any suggestions?

So far on my 24" Dell (1920x1200) Mac OS X 10.6.3 Macbook Pro.  I can't get the problem to recreate.  It looks like it is fixed at this end.  The image is rendered correctly while making all adjustments in "fit mode".

Jay S.

[Sharpshooter 007]

It is most noticeable on photos with feather detail.

[hhansard]

I have a couple of machines.  I see it as well, but only on my high-end stuff (30", Quadro FX, etc).  It is clear on any image with detail. H

[JayS_In_CT]

Sharpshooter 007 wrote:

I am seeing some improvement but I don't think we are quite there yet. I am running a 30" monitor at 2560 x 1600 with the latest Nvidia driver (released yesterday).  I have the catalog preview settings at 2048 and High Quality.  I have re-rendered  individual previews but I still see a distinct softness in the library preview.  It does go away if I render a 1:1 or zoom in and out.  Any suggestions?

Sharpshooter,

Again, I'm on a Dell 24" Ultrasharp at 1920x1200.  Previews at standard size are 1440 Medium.  Have two almost identical images (Senior shoot, long hair, etc.) side by side.  I rerendered one at 1:1 (zoom to 100% pixels), and the other not.  I really cannot see any difference between the two.

Jay S.

[Sharpshooter 007]

The difference that I am seeing is enough to make me think I need to add sharpening when viewing the preview, but not when I zoom in and out or go to develop mode. I've tried reducing my resolution, but the problem still exists.  It just does not appear to be showing the full amount of sharpening adjustments in the library preview.

[JayS_In_CT]

Sharpshooter 007 wrote:

The difference that I am seeing is enough to make me think I need to add sharpening when viewing the preview, but not when I zoom in and out or go to develop mode. I've tried reducing my resolution, but the problem still exists.  It just does not appear to be showing the full amount of sharpening adjustments in the library preview.

Sharpshooter..  How about at 1:2 or 1:3 instead of Fit mode.  Does Fill look any different?

Jay S.

[hhansard]

Three images.  All headshots.  Canon 5DMII, 85mm/f1.2LII at f/8. Previews: 2048 / High.

Dual 30” HD displays, nVidia 5800, latest drivers, Win 7x64, 3.3RC

Concentrating on lashes and blood vessels in the eyes, I can see a difference in 1:2 or 1:3 against 1:1. Subjectively, it looks like a slight Gaussian blur has been applied to the 1:2 or 1:3 as compared to the 1:1.

In my mind, the behavior is expected. The previews are built using an algorithm (bicubic, bilinear, etc.) from the 1:1.  For this reason, many recommend that sharpening be applied at 1:1.

You can see similar behavior in photoshop, et all.

[Jao vdL]

hhansard is absolutely right. You should NOT look at the previews in Library at lower than 1:1 as representing much to do with the capture sharpening in Develop. The sharpening In Develop should be optimized at 1:1 as it is meant to compensate for the Bayer mosaic, antialias filter and (less so but still relevant) the softness of the lens. It should not be used to make an image look sharp at lower resolution. Lightroom has to scale down somehow to show you a preview in Fit/Fill or other lower than 1:1 resolutions as computer displays are very low resolution devices (typically only 100 ppi). The scaling algorithm greatly influences the feel of the displayed image. When you export an image, a different scaling algorithm is used (because it doesn't have to be super fast) than is used in the Library display. You can (and should!) also apply output sharpening when you export. There is currently no way to preview the effect of this in Lightroom. You just have to experiment with exporting and the level of output sharpening you apply. Generally, "standard screen" is a good choice for images that will be displayed on a LCD screen.

[Sharpshooter 007]

While I agree with what you have said, Adobe has admitted that this is a bug in 3.2.  I do not believe it existed in the beta release, but I have noticed it since the official version release.  I'm hoping it will still be remedied for those of us using 30" monitors at high resolution.

[fauxtoe]

PROBLEM SOLVED!!!!

Turn off the tool bar in develop module.  Press T.  I normally dont have it on, for some reason I did, just experienced this problem today.  I tried everything in this thread except using 3.3RC.  On a fluke I turned off the toolbar.  Works well.

[glxavier]

I haven't tried the 3.3 RC yet, but mine is OK now!! Thanks fauxtoe!!

[dorin_nicolaescu]

Yes, turnin the toolbar on and off in LR 3.2. redraws the view and cures the blurriness, but only temporarily, until the next adjustment. At least, for me.

3.3 RC solves the problem completely.

[Sharpshooter 007]

Dorin,

When you say LR 3.3 solves the problem completely, are you referring to the image view in develop mode?  I have no problem with the view in develop mode, my problem is the view in library mode.  This problem does not appear to be fixed in LR 3.3, at least for larger high resolution monitors.

[dorin_nicolaescu]

For develop mode only.

I have small monitor and cannot test the Library mode problem.

EDIT: By the way, this bug is related to Develop mode only. People are complaining that after adjusting a slider, the preview gets blurry and stays blurry until you zoom in and out. You don't adjust sliders in Library, so even there's a bug there, it's a different bug.

[hhansard]

I am starting to wonder if we are all talking about the same phenomena – and should it be moved to a separate thread?

I am seeing several discussions about blurry previews in the past few posts.  I believe that they are:

A. Upon initial load or after rendering, previews are less sharp in 1:1 than 1:x.  Library and Develop.

B. Previews are rendered poorly on high-res displays. Library and Develop.

C. Rendering takes so long and/or consumes so many resources, that the preview image remains blurry and unusable.  Use of a tool is not required. This issue is independent of the numerous problems related rendering/preview after tool use are being digested in other threads.  Develop.

D. Preview rendering does not occur when it should and needs to be triggered by some “event” – toggle slider, toolbar, repaint main window, etc. Develop.

Is/are there some other phenomena related to blurry previews that is being experienced / described in this thread?  I have not seen some of these phenomena, so can only test for the ones that I can reproduce.

I did some testing using the USAF resolution image.

For the ‘A’ issue and ‘B’ issues: After rendering a preview, I consistently see a difference between 1:1 and 1:x at high resolutions as previously described in this thread.  This behavior is 100% repeatable, quite slight and expected.  This behavior does not impact my productivity.  I just sharpen at 1:1 and take a stab at output sharpening based on my target audience.  This behavior and workflow are identical in other image management systems.  On my lower-end machines, the effect is much less noticeable (ex, 1680x1050).  This behavior is identical in both library and develop and on single or dual displays.  Behavior is most noticeable at 2560 and up.

For the ‘C’ issue: LR is rendering/loading screen previews where the image starts-out quite blurry (and unusable) and then becomes sharp (and usable) when rendering completes.  I expect this behavior, but the rendering speed and preview management are an issue. The image ends-up slightly blurry in 1:x as compared to 1:1.  Adobe has acknowledged the problem, but I do not believe it has been addressed as of 3.3RC. The rendering/loading may be instantaneous to 30+ seconds depending on the hardware and image. All my workstation hardware is high-end so the render/load speed is minimal (< 1sec) and the end result has minimal workflow impact.  I just keep in mind that the image is sharper than it appears and will be OK on output. However, my laptops are a very different story.  On every one of my laptops, this effect is pronounced and disruptive.  LR can also consume [or retain when not needed] enough resource that the system thrashes or disrupts other applications.  This behavior is independent of tool use.  For instance, loading a 25Meg image can consume and additional 2.5Gig of memory.  The image remains slightly blurry in develop, but is sharp upon output.

For issue ‘D’: Very intermittant in 3.2. Have not consistantly observed this behavior since LR 2.x

H

Test environment

LR 3.2 or 3.3RC x64, Win 7, x64, USAF 1951 test image.  2 high-end workstations, 1  high-end “gaming” laptop and 2 “normal” laptop environments.  Catalog about 100Meg, typical DNG is 25Meg, 10000+ images, previews high/2048 and pre-built.  1:1 prebuilt and stored.  XML written to files.

Workstations deployed for compositing, NLE and 3D design: 24GB DDR3 memory, i7 or dual i7 3.x – 4.x Ghz, liquid cooled, separate SAS or FC arrays for program, data, catalog and scratch, nVidia 5000 or 6000 FX series, multi-display systems.  Calibrated broadcast monitor output. These environments are way over the top for LR, PS, etc.

Gaming class laptop: i7 in the 1.8 – 2.xG range, 8GB mem, ESD

Imaging class laptops: i5 1.8g, 4gig mem, 5000RPM or 7200RPM

[Sharpshooter 007]

This thread does seem to have more than one issue, but it was the only one I could find after Melissa told me other threads existed after I started this thread: http://forums.adobe.com/thread/661290?tstart=0

I think I will revive the other thread,

Thanks

[Jao vdL]

previews high/2048 and pre-built.

On a high res display such as a 30" 2560x1600, you can easily run into the situation where the largest previews are simply not large enough. This results in initial unsharp images when you're browsing in Library and you maximize the image (hide the panels). When the image displayed is close to but not above the dimension of the preview (for example a vertical image at 1500 pixels high and you have 2048 pixel previews), Lightroom will not build a larger preview and scale down from the 2048 pixel preview. This will result in a slightly blurry preview because they probably use simple bilinear scaling that gets blurry at levels like that. When you zoom in to 1:1 in Library, you will forcing the system to build a 1:1 preview and the blurriness will clear up. When you have a horizontal image on that same display, Lightroom will need an image larger than 2048 pixels and will build a 1:1 preview for you (you'll typically see the dreaded "loading" message). If you have 1:1 previews pregenerated however, it works just fine and very fast for me without blurry Library previews. That said, I really think the largest standard preview setting should be higher than 2048 pixels on the long side.

Regarding speed, there is little you can do in that area. It takes a certain time for certain hardware to generate a 1:1 preview. My guess is that this is already quite optimized code and the only way to get more speed is to disable features in the raw conversion.

[TK2142]

hhansard wrote:

I am seeing several discussions about blurry previews in the past few posts.

Thanks for the systematic breakdown. I hope the Adobe programmers are listening.

hhansard wrote:

For the ‘A’ issue and ‘B’ issues: After rendering a preview, I consistently see a difference between 1:1 and 1:x at high resolutions as previously described in this thread.  This behavior is 100% repeatable, quite slight and expected.  This behavior does not impact my productivity.

I don't agree that this behaviour is expected. Naturally downscaling will introduce some blurriness. This has to be counter-acted by some sharpening. Even a non 1:1 view should give an indication of what the user defined sharpening at 1:1 will look like. I find that non 1:1 views in LR give me a poor indication of what the sharpening at 1:1 looks like.

I agree that sharpening should be done at 1:1 but one should get a better feel for the sharpening level at views at other magnifications too.

Unlike you, I'm hampered by the the poor correspondence between magnifications.

Regarding the other issues: I believe LR should adopt the general strategy of first showing the best preview/cache available but then *always* start a background process to produce the best possible rendering of the image at a given magnification. It should never be up to the user to trigger the best rendering by zooming in and out to 1:1, toggeling the tool bar, or whatever. If the user chooses to navigate away from an image before the best possible rendering has been achieved so be it and the background process could be aborted.

In a similar vein, I find LR's caching strategy to be poor. When I've done some adjustments to images and flip back and forth between them in the Develop module, I always get heavy delays. Only by *manually* provoking new previews to be rendered, I can flip between the images with reasonable speed. Why doesn't LR a) keep cached versions of recently edited images in the ACR cache (instead of just caching the demosaicing process) and/or b) automatically create new previews for images that have been adjusted?

[hhansard]

The idea of automatically applying sharpening on 1:x images for preview is interesting. But would need to be a user-managed parameter.

I am wondering if we are looking at the same results of preview processing.  If two systems have the same preview settings and monitor size, but one has a GPU with OpenGL (or something similar), will LR execute the same code path and display the same results?  I was doing some beta testing with the PS team and things like this cropped-up all the time.  With LR on my systems, I always see blurring at 1:x previews, but it is not great.  Maybe on your HW, the code is going down a different path and you see greater blurring. Does anyone know of a more detailed “system info” for LR?

The idea of background processing and managing a preview cache for quick response when bouncing back-forth between images is also interesting.  I am not sure how preview processing is performed – the questions you raise are interesting.  I am sure Adobe knows there are problems.  If you look at the “top 10 threads” for LR, a high percentage refer to performance. I don’t know what would happen if LR added more background and/or cache processing to the existing architecture – it is already a dog.  The code base is going to need reworking for performance prior to adding features and complexity.  With this economy, folks are just not going to blow more bucks on HW just to support LR 4.x.

H

[Selby Shanly]

Further to this - since Adobe did acknowledge the bug in 3.0 and also said it missed the

boat for 3.2, and since it is not mentioned in the release notes for 3.3RC, I would suspect that it is not fixed.

However sometimes fixes don't make the release notes, so it would be helpful if Adobe could clarify this.

Selby

[Thomas_McConville]

All I know is that my images are still soft, I cant use this program, wish they'd fix this shit!!!

[Sharpshooter 007]

Thanks Jay,

I get the same results at 1:2 or 1:3.

[dorin_nicolaescu]

I was able to reproduce it 100% of times at 1:2 zoom in LR 3.2. Never at 1:1.

In LR 3.3 RC I cannot reproduce it neither at 1:2 nor at 1:1.

Seems to be fixed.

P.S. A small gotcha: you need to move the mouse cursor off the slider. The previews stays soft until then. And while in 3.2 it remained soft after moving the mouse away, in 3.3 it gets sharp the moment you get your mouse off the slider.

[glxavier]

I'm having the same problem as you. Have you have it solved? Thanks!

[Tim_Mooney]

Slow and no rendering see my newer post ???

help

http://forums.adobe.com/thread/747903?tstart=0