Please bring back the Fill Light slider!!!

[Guest]

I was extremely disappointed when I fired up LR4 last night.  This new Shadows slider pales horribly in comparison to Fill Light.  Frankly, it's a wimp!!!  For me, Fill Light was magic.  I can't tell you how many people would ask "how did you do that" when they looked at my pictures hanging on the wall.  It was a perfect tool and one that made LR stand out.  Not only did it fulfill its intended purpose of adding just that suble amount of fill, it also was an extremely efficient way to produce an edgy, psuedo HDR, effect. Hopefully Curves will allow close to the same results, but there's no way it will be as easy and reproducable. I kick myself for not having tried the bata version before paying the $69 upgade (thankfully it wasn't $150). If I can't figure this out, I'm heading back to LR3. Do others miss Fill Light like I do?

[christianbobak]

I don't understand all these comments that refer to "learning the new tools" and how "tricky" they can be. There is nothing tricky or difficult about the new tools (of which there are few anyway), and I have zero issue with them. My issue, as I clearly stated, is the removal of two very important tools that I use constantly. The methods used to "replicate" Fill Light do not actually replicate Fill Light very well at all, and they are a poor substitute. Maybe the substitute methods work fine for you guys, but they don't work fine for me. They are a poor substitute. You can make glib, idiotic comments such as "no you don't" in response to my statement that I do need those tools, or that I have "poor judgment," but that doesn't actually make it true. I know what I need and why, you don't. I rarely take photos of still objects in broad daylight in perfect conditions. I take photos of moving objects in poor and unpredictable lighting conditions, apparently, something no one here has any experience with. The Recovery tool changes hue? Right. I need that most times, because most of my photos contain oversaturated hues, colours and mild-to-moderate blowouts from cheap pot lighting in small rock clubs. The Recovery tool is usually the first tool I go to, and now it's gone. Now all the different spots have to be fixed by hand, individually, increasing my editing time and producing somewhat different results. The Fill Light is crucial for when I get too much backlighting. I don't get to set the shots up, and I don't get to change the lighting. If that's the shot I get, that's the shot I get. There's a lot of improvement in Lightroom 4, but it comes at the cost of two irreplacable tools for me. I have been using it for the last month now, and I have yet to be able to properly replicate those two tools, and it isn't because I don't understand how to use them, it's because they simply do not work in the way I need them to.

You can all you want about how you think I simply don't understand, or how you think I don't need them anyway, but that won't make it true.

[ssprengel]

PV2010 was not removed.

[viramati]

you can actually have the best of both worlds because you can always start of processing using process 2010 then change to process 2012. If you try this you will see that the values you set in 2010 will be converted to values in the 2012 process. This can also be a good way to learn how the sliders in the 2010 process equate to those in 2012.

Learning should always be a joyful activity!!

[areohbee]

I have seen two kinds of cases:

1. Those where people with only a month or two of experience with PV2012 were still having difficulties getting the results they wanted without PV2010 fill/recovery, and I was able to show them how in PV2012, and then they were surprised and pleased. It *can* be tricky - really: don't overestimate your mastery of PV2012 at this point.

2. Those where it was truly "impossible" to get satisfactory results in Lr4 without the fill.

For photos & desired results in category 2, your only recourse is to use PV2010 on those photos. If that's most or all of your photographts, then PV2012 was not for you - I get it.

Note: This is a user to user forum. None of us has any control over Lightroom other than by expressing our opinions. All we can do is help you to use it as best you can...

Fill light & recovery will not return to Lightroom 4 (other than by using PV2010 I mean), but Adobe has heard your cry...

FWIW - Although the recovery technology in PV2012 is better, in general, in my opinion, there is no way to turn off the automatic highlight-recovery, which changes the gradient of highlights around bright light sources. Although there is some control by way of finessing whites, highlights, exposure, and tone curve - I sometimes prefer the unadulterated glowy progressive gradient of emanating light sources in PV2010.

Not sure what else to say.

Rob

[Jeff Schewe]

christianbobak wrote:

I don't understand all these comments that refer to "learning the new tools" and how "tricky" they can be. There is nothing tricky or difficult about the new tools (of which there are few anyway), and I have zero issue with them.

The comments are there because you may THINK you know how to use the new PV2012 image adaptive controls, but you really don't.

You are bringing your experience with PV 2010 and trying to force fit that experience into PV 2012. That dog don't hunt...you need to really understand what the new controls can do and how to deploy them–which if you are complaining about the removal of Fill Light and Highlight Recovery, you don't.

You say you are shooting poorly lit scenes with lots of backlighting...which is EACTLY what PV 2012 is designed to deal with–high contrast scenes. But I bet you don't really use Exposure and Contrast in PV 2012, right? Your knee-jerk reaction is to slam the Fill Light up then tamp down the stuff that blows out? That's the wrong way of using the controls...there's a reason why the controls are there in the order they are in. That's the optimal order to use them in.

Seriously, if you can't get better results with PV 2012 than you could with PV 2010 then you really don't know how to use the PV 2012 controls...

Which is all moot anyway...PV 2012 is here now...it won't go away and Fill Light will not be added back in. If you want to stick your head in the sand, simply select PV 2010 and set that as the LR4 Default so you never ever need to see the new controls again. Course, you'll be leaving a lot of image quality on the table, but that's ok...you obviously know best, right?

[areohbee]

The new controls take some getting use to, but one can get even better results in Lr4 than Lr3, once one gets the hang of it...

Forcing us to learn a new set of controls was a bold move, to be sure, but I wouldn't say it was stupid.

There are some occasions when Lr3 fill light may still be preferable but in most cases Lr4 does everything better.

More tips & tricks can be found here:

http://forums.adobe.com/message/4259091#4259091

http://forums.adobe.com/thread/968940?tstart=0

Rob

[christianbobak]

Seriously, I don't need tips and tricks, I need the old features back. Does Lightroom offer refunds?

[christianbobak]

The photos I started editing in 4 are looking better in 3 because I have Fill Light and Recovery in 3. It's as simple as that. I need Recovery and Fill Light. I use them all the time.

[Lee_Jay]

christianbobak wrote:

The photos I started editing in 4 are looking better in 3 because I have Fill Light and Recovery in 3. It's as simple as that. I need Recovery and Fill Light. I use them all the time.

Learn how to use the new tools, and it's unlikely that you'll be doing better in PV2010 than in PV2012.  This learning process takes time.  Also, realize that "3" is in "4" - just change the process version in 4 and you'll have Fill Light and Recovery back, with all the baggage they bring along.

[christianbobak]

I did learn how to use the tools. You don't understand. The learning process did not take much time for me. I get it all, and the new tools work amazingly for what they do, but they do not properly replicate the tools that Adobe took away. I'm not sure what you don't get about that, why you don't believe me, or why you don't understand.

[areohbee]

Christian,

There is no doubt, PV2012 can not replicate, exactly, the look of PV2010 fill / recovery. This has been proven in a number of threads starting with the beta.

I know a guy whose business rotated around a certain look he'd gotten from them. A kindof "signature look" - reminds me of what another guy accomplished using Lucis Art (not the same look, but a "signature/characteristic" look). We worked together to try and replicate the look in PV2012, and got very close, in some ways better, and with the help of some locals, exceeded what he'd done using PV2010, but it was trickier, and took extra work, and in some ways, was still not liked as well as the PV2010 results.

PV2012 can competently fill shadows, and recover highlights, but even with months of experience, the look will not always be the same as PV2010.

If I were you, I'd just use PV2010 when you can't get the results you want from PV2012. I still think, the number of cases where you can't get the results you want in PV2012 will decline over time - certainly that's been true in my case.

Good luck with it.

Rob

[christianbobak]

That's pretty much my situation, Rob. Some results are better, however, some are not. Contrary to what some holier-than-thou, know-it-all types in this thread claim, it is not simply a question of "learning the new tools." There is nothing that properly replicates Recovery and Fill Light. There is only extra work in an attempt to come close, nothing else. Yes, I can revert to 2010, but why should I have to do that after spending $100 on an "upgrade"? I should have everything I had before plus new features, not new features at the expense of old ones.

[Jeff Schewe]

christianbobak wrote:

I should have everything I had before plus new features, not new features at the expense of old ones.

Because the underlying processing algorithms of PV 2012 are fundamentally different than PV 2010, that's impossible. Pure and simple. There is no way to make Shadows behave like Fill Light. Fill Light actually had several undesirable side effects (haloing in particular) that was the reason behind the redesign of PV 2012 from the ground up.

The engineers made the choice to start over with the new algorithms which was a line in the sand with the old ones. That's why they created a new process version. You can't mix and match. If you really need PV 2010, LR 4 still has those algorithms, but you will be giving up the rest of the PV 2012 processing. Bottom line, you can't have your cake and eat it too. It's an either/or proposition...you choose.

[christianbobak]

Um, yeah, I get that, Mr. Jeff Expert. Riddle me this, smart guy: What makes you so sure there is no possible way to keep old features when creating new algorithms? That's like saying that the invention of air bags in cars necessitated the removal of radio.

[Jeff Schewe]

christianbobak wrote:

Riddle me this, smart guy: What makes you so sure there is no possible way to keep old features when creating new algorithms?

Because of the math...if you want more info about what is happening under the hood, check out this article: Magic or Local Laplacian Filters? Just a warning if you read the linked paper that was presented at SIGGRAPH 2011, it's pretty deep...

Look at it this way, PV 2012 is leading edge impage processing tech...PV 2010 is old stuff that barely worked, but when it worked, it was "ok". There is no way to stuff the old stuff in the new stuff. Line in the sand...

BTW, I am pretty smart, but I just barely understood the basics of the linked article...but I've talked to the engineers enough to know that when you redesign a series of processing routines, trying to shove in old processing doesn't work.

[christianbobak]

And PV2010 sucked, how? What were you using to edit your digital photos 15 years ago? Oh, that's right. Nothing.

[Jeff Schewe]

christianbobak wrote:

And PV2010 sucked, how? What were you using to edit your digital photos 15 years ago? Oh, that's right. Nothing.

Fill Light caused halos and artifacting...Highlight Recovery caused color casts and was unable to extract nearly as much image detail as PV 2012...BTW, ACR was released in Feb 2003 (hense the old PV 2003) so raw processing isn't even 10 years old. LR was only released in Feb 2007 so it's only 5 years old...and yes, I've gone back and reprocessed a ton of images in PV 2012 and gotten superior results. In the "old days" I had to end up fixing stuff in Photoshop...now? Not so much.

Really, you might not like the taste of the medicine...but it does you good.

[christianbobak]

Interesting. I have no halos and artifacting in any of my edited photos, but you apparently seem to know so much more about my photos than I do, so I'm assuming this is the part where I'm supposed to bow down and grovel before your vast knowledge and intellect.

[dhphoto2012]

christianbobak wrote:

Interesting. I have no halos and artifacting in any of my edited photos, but you apparently seem to know so much more about my photos than I do, so I'm assuming this is the part where I'm supposed to bow down and grovel before your vast knowledge and intellect.

Like it or not Adobe have done this because it gives better results, and it does.

One can't help thinking those who constantly resort to the fill-light slider might be better off getting their exposures and fill lights right in-camera instead

[Jeff Schewe]

christianbobak wrote:

...but you apparently seem to know so much more about my photos than I do, so I'm assuming this is the part where I'm supposed to bow down and grovel before your vast knowledge and intellect.

Yes...since I seem to know just a bit more than you do...just sayin'.

Either adopt PV 2012 or punt and use PV 2010. YMMV (my image quality is much better with PV 2012). Don't know about your's...

Either way you have a choice...either stick your head in the sand and stick with PV 2010 or use PV 2012...that's your choice. Sorry bud, but either adapt and adopt or piss$moan. PV 2012 ain't gonna change because of you. Deal with it...

[dhphoto2012]

Lapsing into casual racism does rather show up the kind of person you obviously are Christian

[Jeff Schewe]

christianbobak wrote:

Otay, mista Jeff, suh. You de man, suh.

Guess you don't really "grok" this stuff huh?

I've been the co-author of Real World Camera Raw since version CS3. I've been directly involved in the development of Lightroom as well as Camera Raw (don't work FOR Adobe but I sometimes work WITH Adobe). Particularly with the image sharpening of ACR 4.X and LR 3.X. The output sharpening in LR 3.x is based on the routines of PixelGenius PhotoKit Sharpener (which I am a founding member of).

So, yes bud...what you think you know and what I actually know is a bit different...you want to measure creds? You lose...

So get over yourself...PV 2012 is a MAJOR advance...what you THINK you've lost is minimal (at best) and what you've received in it's place is major...

But, hey, YOU be the judge.,if you don't like PV 2012, just use PV 2010...and if you think you've been ripped off on the upgrade, Adobe has a 30 day return policy...get your friggin' money back doode...

Guess your life sucks huh?

Move on...PV 2012 ain't gonna change because you are "displeased"...you can keep posting if ya want...ain't gonna change a thing (and I suspect you know that). You keep trying to one up me, ain't gonna happen....

Move along...these aren't the droids you are looking for...

(and if that don't work, you are, well, a dummy–sorry to be blunt, but, well, that's the truth bud).

You won't win this battle so only an idiot would keep banging his head against a brick wall. Keep banging your head if ya want...no skin off my nose.

PV 2012 is a vast improvement and it requires that you relearn what you think you know...(and no, there's no real indication you really know how to use PV 2012 even if you think you know–you don't dooode).

[dhphoto2012]

Jeff Schewe wrote:

Guess you don't really "grok" this stuff huh?

Thanks Jeff, it's Sunday and I just learned a new word!

[Keith Reeder]

As if your ignorant beligerent arrogance wasn't enough Christian, we get your RACISM (which I have reported) now?

Just learn to use the damn' tool, accept that you're bang out of order about all of this - you're just plain wrong - and shut up.

[areohbee]

Christian,

I feel your pain. And, I'm not an Adobe defender, but I do understand Lightroom design, to some extent. It's not like some programs where each tool acts independently of the rest. The Lr pipeline is optimized around the PV.

I'm not saying it would have been impossible to have kept fill-light & recovery in PV2012, only that it's understandable why they were not included.

Maybe one day, Adobe will redesign Lightroom, but until then - don't get too attached to the PV2012 sliders either - they may be gone in Lr5! .

Cheers,

Rob