Closing Muse ? Are you serious over there ?

[Erotokritos]

Helloooooo! Over there, are you listening to me?

I think you have to take a close look to stopping support of the Muse project.

We have spent a lot of time learning how to use Muse, we have created a large number of customers with websites through Mouse, and we continue.

If you respect your customers, you should think again.

Muse is not Flash to have security issues or its works not supported by browsers. Although the flash continues, the name is changed to Animate.

Please respect us and continue the good work on Muse.

God bless America.

Erik

[rayek.elfin]

InDesign already renders an exact html/css/js based version of a document through its online publishing option. The built-in HTML output export is extremely flawed, however.

The trouble is that Adobe doesn't want that online published version to be used directly by InDesign users, however. They've crippled the html export in order to prevent them to use InDesign as a visual html page builder. Perhaps initially to prevent competing with Muse.

It is possible to open and hack into these published versions as well in order to get a local version which the user may upload to their own server, but it is finicky and requires some technical knowledge.

In short, it is not in Adobe's interest to provide InDesign with Muse-like html export. The developers could have implemented it years ago. And again, maintaining a separate visual translation layer like the one Muse has to create web pages is very hard to do, and will always lag behind browsers' capabilities and newly introduced web tech. That is one other reason why Muse was really doomed from day one of its conception. It takes too much effort to update that translation layer to match the html/css/js layer.

I too have taught many graphic design students html and css. To be brutally honest, EVERYONE can learn basic html and css.  Half of my students were scared to death of the prospect having to learn html and css in my classes. ALL OF THEM realized after a couple of classes that they actually didn't think it was that difficult at all, and most of them actually really liked coding their own web pages from scratch at the end of my classes. No-one was incapable of creating nice looking pages.

In my experience it is all about how this topic is breached and taught to (design) students, and much less about the so-called complexity. Because let's face it: html and css aren't difficult to learn. And with flexbox and CSS grid we no longer need obscure work-arounds either. Literally three lines of flexbox code to create a working controllable layout is all what is required nowadays.

Besides, the reality of today's graphic designer job requirements includes basic html and css skills. Combine that with a tool like Pinegrow, and no self-respecting graphic designer needs to rely on outdated visual tools like Muse to build their pages (tools that generate ABYSMAL code to boot), and I warrant you that building a good-looking unique web page layout will take much less time than building it in Muse. Because Muse is an unwieldy tool to build pages on many levels - because of that disconnect with the underlying html and css.

[welshonemillion]

Thanks Rayek,

Actually I'm not a web development person - textile design / graphic design / illustration / branding / and some animation is my background originally.

A colleague who teaches web development to our students says much the same as you - ie everyone can learn it, it's how the subject is introduced, html and css are not so hard and the perceived complexity can and should be surmounted. Definitely all true - there's sometimes a certain (perceived) pain barrier to go through for some students at the start and it's definitely worthwhile.

But I've also seen students who have gone through the classes my colleague teaches and who have completed the classes successfully etc, but they still don't necessarily want to take web development further. Generally, they're just more interested in other stuff, whether it's editorial / illustration / branding / animation etc etc.

Some of these students still find Muse interesting, probably in part because of the ease with which they can create stuff. To them it's just another tool to make work with (although I must admit I don't find many are actually aware of it until I show them it's there).

There was one project I saw one of our students build a couple of years ago that made me start to think of Muse as potentially as much of a publishing tool for screen projects as it is a tool for creating websites - hence I wondered about the integration of some its functionality within InDesign to expand upon InDesign's existing (and rather limited) html export features.

Kind regards,

John

[natcto]

Hi Rayek,

Can you link to some examples of the nice sites you or your students created by just using HTML and CSS? (no other script).

I'm a designer, not a coder. I've tried coding but am turned off by the amount of code that you need to do get just a page looking decent and functioning slickly (I think I just made that word up). I could be wrong, but so far, every site that I've seen that uses just HTML and CSS - without any other code looks.... well, plain - maybe nice, but not great, slick, fantastic or beautiful

[natcto]

Hi Rayek,

Do you have any online HTML and CSS courses?

I'm currently going back to a Udemy one which I purchased a while ago and didn't complete because I didn't have the available time to do it. If you can pass the knowledge on in a couple of classes, I'm all ears

[Illostraight]

I revisited Pinegrow, unless you know bootstrap, html, css or wordpress, it's going to take some time to learn, but it does seem slick. I don't have the time at the moment, but if u do, I'd go in that direction. Sticking with Sparkleapp right now.

BTW, Adobe will not change their minds.

Keep people up to date here or in the help discussions on the Muse forums. Since Adobe is not helping, we need to help each other.

Vote with your dollar$!

[Lonnie_Kunkel]

I just got off the phone with three people from Adobe Muse support:

1. it is definitely dead.

2. They don't care if it will cost us time and money to migrate our websites, but they will  tell you how wonderful XD and Dreamweaver are.

3. The only thing they know about Spark is that it won't replace Muse.

4. If I want to make sure my OS supports Muse in the future, then I should never update my OS.

5. They may have a Muse replacement in the future, but I wasn't given any assurance that that is even true.

6. They gave me three months free on my CC subscription. Pfft.

It's time to abandon Adobe for good. Good luck!

[BUSKIRKS.com]

30+ years of this corporate mongering.... they have our collective money...
sheep to slaughter...

time to change the game...

#OpenSourceCreativeActionGroup

[Lonnie_Kunkel]

And the good people over at Muse support are reading the forums. They know they we are pissed, but don't care.

[N_A_T]

If they know we're p**** but don't care, then they aren't good people.

[N_A_T]

I think we have to take this at face value and stop living in hope - Adobe's silence is deafening ... and eventually, so too will be the coin going into their bank accounts when all us sheep are slaughtered so to speak.  Eventually, all the creatives will all be let down in one way or another (no matter what they do or don't use in the suite) because the attitude won't change until there is a change at the top.  Let's all aspire to make a collective wad of money so that we can pool it and buy Adobe when it fails due to all of the "creatives" in the advertising industry stopping their recommendation for the products and because they don't buy into the "whole experience".

[RainyOregonDayGirl]

Can someone tell me whether or not Pinegrow allows a shopping cart feature that can connect to PayPal? Can you add it using HTML? etc. It looks promising.

[rayek.elfin]

RainyOregonDayGirl  wrote

Can someone tell me whether or not Pinegrow allows a shopping cart feature that can connect to PayPal? Can you add it using HTML? etc. It looks promising.

Not directly. You will need to add the PayPal code yourself, which is rather simple to do.

Btw, Pinegrow 4.6 was released today, and allows for Wordpress themes to be built without the need for code or even basic WP tag understanding (up to a point). Looks interesting - will update today.

Pinegrow's updates are coming in at an impressively fast rate.

[W_J_T]

Pinegrow offers all the entry points for adding pretty much anything you like.

Just find your E-commere of choice and the corresponding documentation and follow the various steps.

PayPal Developer Documentation - PayPal Developer

Here is another example with Ecwid.

Adding your store to the website manually – Ecwid Knowledge Base

As rayek.elfin​ mentioned , Pinegrow in todays update now allows you to ..

Pinegrow 4.6 - Creating WordPress Themes Without PHP Coding - using smart actions

https://medium.com/@mattront/creating-wordpress-themes-without-php-coding-aeeb4f6278f2

Indeed Pinegrow is moving fast since the version 3 rewrite and UI, updates and features are coming fast and often, it is getting more designer friendly as well and sounds like that trend will continue in strategic ways.

[dabach]

I totally agree. I spent a ton of time and money on muse and templates etc. I have my whole business operating in this format and trusted it would be something I could keep using it. This is a bad mistake on Adobe's part and I am not going to continue the overpriced membership and wasting my time.

[xxefsxx]

There is a list of Muse 'substitutes' on Google Drive, maybe we should start another for Illustrator, Photoshop, InDesign and some of the other apps people rely on.

[BUSKIRKS.com]

Yes, it's smart to make a list.... As they will be moving you from subscription based sofware usage to:

Service based fees by project.

Welcome to a software monolpoly that needs to be split up.

Warmest,

#Unanimous

[BUSKIRKS.com]

Yes we should...

And yes we are

And yes they will be community owned...

Kai Buskirk

[Paul R Johnson]

Can I ask - what is the point of the repeated "Will you recommend Adobe" question that pops up when you open many of the products, if Adobe don't care about what we think? My box will go from a 10 straight down to a 1 from now on. I wonder what Adobe do with the results of these questions? What ask the question if you genuinely don't care what users think.

I still don't know what to do. A client with a Muse site has just asked me to redesign lots of it to cope with changes he is making to his business - what on earth do I do? Timescale means the cost to start again from scratch will be higher, so do I carry on with Muse, or not?

I really don't know what to do.

[dannygarber]

Paul,

I can't speak for Affinity and Web Plus, but I think, as a whole, Affinity is rebuilding everything from the ground-up. From my experience using their products, they are far more stable than Adobe products. All software programs, no matter who makes them, are tools. Do the tools work well? Do they enable me to do what I need to do? Do they do it efficiently? Then ask yourself if the company is stable. Do they care about their customers? Let's take Affinity as an example. We've been hearing about their page layout program for years. Keeps getting pushed back. For me, that's fine. Let them work everything out BEFORE unleashing it on the public (I remember what a nightmare InDesign was in it's first release). From what I've read, and take that for what it is, I think Affinity will (maybe are) develop a web design program. I think their priorities are Publisher and refining Photo and Designer.

Web design for me is an odd relationship. Every time I explore my design options, something like Muse seemed to be the best option but I refuse to pay for CC. Hype, Wix, Blocs, Dreamweaver, etc. Coming from a print background I always looked for something that would be an easy transition for my brain. Coding is not for me. At this point, I have professional relationships with web designers and if a client asks I refer them to those designers.

[mariannet93707004]

I'm done with Adobe products!!

The monthly fees are outrageous and all we get in return is to be treated like absolute trash.

I will use Affinity, Scribe, Wordpress from now on.

[Milo Milinsky]

It seems to me that the folks at Adobe need to figure out what the Hell they want to do--develop software for designers, jump on the analytics bandwagon, make self propelled cars, (tongue in cheek) JUST get your S#*T together and pick one. Oh and if you/Adobe don't want to develop software for designers anymore then please stop buying out perfectly good design software companies/projects and murdering them. You could always sell the design programs to a collective or singular public entity (An option you evidently never thought of, nor cared to). At the moment you/Adobe are shooting yourself in the foot, and this isn't just about Muse, it's a long history.

As for me I'm buckling down and learning code.

And no I have no interest in wasting my time with XD, Spark, etc.

Sincerely,
An old timer. (47s the new old )

[rayek.elfin]

Milo, get a copy of Pinegrow while learning basic html and css, and I promise you a pleasant ride 🙂

[richjern]

Anybody going to NAB next week? Unfortunately, I can't but a protest at their floor sessions would be great. How about a chant of "Bring Back Muse" during their sessions?

[RainyOregonDayGirl]

So I downloaded the 7 day free trial for Pinegrow and I am VERY IMPRESSED! It's actually way better than Muse. I am an artist (acrylic on canvas) and have no experience whatsoever with coding or anything geeky (ha ha). It is a bit like riding without training wheels and It took me a bit of time to figure out how to use it. But, I am actually learning it and it's getting less challenging. I am on day 2 of my trial and I already have the first page (1 of 3) of my site done. If you have a huge site or a bunch of sites - I feel your pain and it will take much more time, but you can do it. If I can, you can. I hope everyone finds this encouraging

[W_J_T]

RainyOregonDayGirl  wrote

So I downloaded the 7 day free trial for Pinegrow and I am VERY IMPRESSED! It's actually way better than Muse. I am an artist (acrylic on canvas) and have no experience whatsoever with coding or anything geeky (ha ha). It is a bit like riding without training wheels and It took me a bit of time to figure out how to use it. But, I am actually learning it and it's getting less challenging. I am on day 2 of my trial and I already have the first page (1 of 3) of my site done. If you have a huge site or a bunch of sites - I feel your pain and it will take much more time, but you can do it. If I can, you can. I hope everyone finds this encouraging

Thanks for sharing your experience, I think more Muse users would realize Pinegrow's abilities and potential for both learning and building websites if they give Pinegrow a proper chance.

For those interested in learning more about it: Link 1 | Link 2​

Good to see with some determination, you are finding your way forward. Great testimony from an artist with no code experience transitioning from Muse, nice job.