FAQ: Multiple master fonts on OS X

Report · Feb 26, 2002

(This notice has been updated repeatedly to discuss: OS X 10.2, Adobe app bugs with 10.2 support, "cocoa" applications; Adobe phasing out MM font sales; Adobe discontinuing tech support for MM fonts. Last update: 23 Sep 2005.)

With versions 10.0 and 10.1, Mac OS X's native support for Type 1 and OpenType initially failed to include support for multiple master Type 1 fonts. This problem is fixed in OS X version 10.2 and later for applications using the "carbon" APIs, but not for applications using "cocoa" APIs. The two most common "cocoa" applications are TextEdit and Keynote.

Note that applications running in "Classic" mode are unaffected. They still need ATM for supporting Type 1 fonts, including multiple master fonts.

There is a workaround for some Adobe applications, such as InDesign 2, Illustrator 10 and Photoshop 7. You can rely on the native font imaging support in these applications, which is largely independent of the OS. Just put the fonts in the the Fonts folder in the application's folder, or the Application Support/Adobe/Fonts folder.

Additionally, the above-mentioned Adobe applications may have problems accessing all multiple master instances, when accessing the MM fonts which are installed at the system level, even in Mac OS X 10.2 and later. In some cases, this may be worked around by installing the fonts in the application's own fonts folder or the Application Support folder as described above.

PHASING OUT MULTIPLE MASTER FONTS

Adobe stopped making new MM and Type 1 fonts in 1999, and there is no equivalent to MM in the newer OpenType format. From late 2002 to mid 2003, Adobe phased out sales of multiple master fonts. As of this writing, they can only be bought from Adobe as part of Font Folio 9, which is still available for people who need compatibility with older fonts. The current version of Font Folio is Font Folio OpenType Edition, which shipped in August 2003.

At the end of 2004, Adobe stopped offering tech support for MM fonts, excepting for people with Font folio 9.

Report · Nov 06, 2002

Maria,

As Aandi says... Font rasterization is built into MacOS X. But if you have a lot of fonts, you should consider current versions of either Font Reserve or Suitcase for font organization and management.

And welcome to the Macintosh side of the fence. Please come back with any other questions.

Neil

Report · Nov 10, 2002

I am a real novice at this. I have a new iMac with OS 10.1.4, having graduated up from a 5-year old PowerMac 7600 running OS 8.1. I made up all my business cards and business stationery using the Bellevue Font, which came with an Adobe Value Pack and ATM disk. It worked perfectly on my old Mac. Now the iMac can't seem to read it. The font is distorted and unusable.

Any ideas for what to do? I really don't want to buy a $100 font package to get Bellevue when I paid for it once already.
Thanks.
David

Report · Nov 11, 2002

David,

Sounds like you may have to delete and reinstall the font from the original foundry media. I don't yet use OS X, but there are specific locations to properly install your fonts so they are recognized under OS X. Check your system literature for installation info, or elsewhere in these forums.

Neil

Report · Nov 14, 2002

Thomas, Neil, anybody,

Read over a dozen threads,looked for a more-suitable thread, but this is the only active that even comes close...

Problem: can't print Multiple Master fonts anymore. Have several (AvantGarde, Myriad, Garamond) and used them to produce high-res imageset output that worked supremely well. That was all until two changes: MacOS 8.1 > 9.1, and ATM Deluxe 4.5.x > ATM Lite 4.6.2.

Since then, QX 3.32 which previously used the MM fonts just fine, now displays them fabulously onscreen, but prints out Courier. Illustrator has, on occasion, erratically unreliably intermittently printed the MM fonts (1. the native PS Type 1 font included in the MM suitcase) (2. when only MyriadMM is present in document, no printee-- error "typecheck" command "makeblendedfont" Stack: " "). (3. When MyriadMM appears with OTHER MM fonts in same document, POW, all print fine, and I can create outlines in Ill. just fine. Even if I add a SINGLE character from another MM font, then it will print OK. But MyriadMM alone, no.) Other apps also choke on printing the MM fonts. Yet...
FontCreator utility 3.1 DOES print out a specimen sheet of MM fonts, even newly-created instances, properly!
FontShow utility prints sample settings properly!
ATM prints out a sample sheet, properly!

What I'm on (yeah, I know it's old):
G3 MacOS 9.1
ATM 4.6.2 plenty of RAM assigned
QX 3.32r5
Illus 8.1
HP LaserJet 4MV 32MB RAM true Adobe PS Level 2
MasterJuggler font mgmnt, latest version

Probs with ALL MM fonts, but most persistent w/MyriadMM
Fonts in MJ folder, subfolders by style (Sans, Display, etc.) activated by Sets, or individually
Yes, other fonts, both TT and PS1 are there and working
All MM font components are present in same directory
No duplicates of fonts present (searched)

Fresh install done with MyriadMM from original font disks (note: creation date of MyriadMM is Jan. 28, 1992).

Also, type utilities and other utilities (including MJ and Conflict Catcher) used to test fonts for corruption (none found, in these fonts-- any bad fonts removed)
Conflict Catcher run, no conflict identified.

Attempts to fix this included Norton SystemWorks NUM 6; DiskWarrior; zap PRAM; rebuild desktop...
QX tried: hurled prefs; replacing and removing Xtension MMU (Multiple Master Utilities) which for a short time added a second "FontCreator" to Utilities Menu;
Intermingling TT, PS1 and MM fonts in a single line of type resulted in PS1 and TT printing OK but every instance of MM printed in Courier (save for the native PS1 weight of the MM font, which printed fine)
Instances of MM fonts delivered with the font, no print.
Newly-created instances of MM fonts, whether created while in QX, Ill., or from the FontCreator utility, no print.
QX Xtension for creating drop shadows does an odd thing of note: since the screen view of MM fonts is OK, the shadows it creates are perfect... but when printed, the overlying MM type goes Courier, very funky-looking.

arrrgh! help please?! Would like to preserve my investment in MM. Thanks for any assistance,

Michael

Report · Nov 14, 2002

Hi,
I've looked through this thread and it gave me some ideas to try for my multiple masters. But my problem sounds a little different. I have two hard drives, one for OS 9.2.2 and the other for Jaguar. InDesign is intstalled on the OS X drive. My fonts are installed in the Application:Adobe Indesign:Fonts folder. The fonts appear in the menu of InDesign. But none of the arrows indicating the variations in weight appear. In OS 9 they work fine using the same installation of the application stored on the second drive. Any ideas anyone?

Report · Nov 16, 2002

Michael,

Don't know if I can be of much help here. You say:

>Since then, QX 3.32 which previously used the MM fonts just fine, now displays them fabulously onscreen, but prints out Courier.

I use QXP 4.1.1 and 5.0.1 and on two occasions I have experienced the same problem -- once with MM fonts; once with PS Type 1 -- running under MacOS 9.2.2, ATM Deluxe 4.6.2, and HP 4MV or 5000N printers with LaserWriter 8.7.x. As I recall, these two documents were opened in QXP 5.0.1 and they were revisions of revisions of older documents.

It may be that the basic document structure was somehow damaged as saving the file under another name did not fix the problem. But when I copied the content (graphics and text) of the document in a squeaky clean new document (copy all from old --> paste into new), everything worked again.

Beyond that, no clues other than to suggest that you replace the fonts with fresh copies made directly from the original foundry media -- in case of font corruption.

Neil

Report · Dec 02, 2002

This inquiry is addressed to Thomas Phinney or any other font-savvy technician at Adobe. It relates to the very latest versions of the Mac OS (v.10.2.2) and Adobe Design applications (InDesign 2.0.1, Illustrator 10.0.3, Photoshop 7.0.1). It is about the use of Adobe's Multiple Master fonts. I was a big subscriber to the MM technology and have virtually all of the MM fonts Adobe issued. I have used them extensively in designs for the past four or five years. Now they have become problematic at best and Adobe has done precious little to keep MM fans informed regarding how to deal with the situation.

I have read every entry in this discussion thread and I still am unclear about where to install MM fonts and what the consequences might be. Furthermore, it took an hour of searching to find this thread. I am very disappointed in Adobe for not providing guidance on this issue in some very obvious, prominent place on their Web site.

As nearly as I can figure, the best place for MM fonts is in the Library>Application Support>Adobe>Fonts folder. Is this correct? And if it is, doesn't this mean that MM fonts will only be available to Adobe apps and therefore not be available to Xpress or Freehand or any other non-Adobe app?

And then I read that some MM instances still may not be available in Adobe apps and that "in some cases" this may be worked around by installing them in the applicaiton-specific fonts folder. Can they be installed in both locations at once? I don't think so. So do I now have to move MM fonts from folder to folder to insure performance? And what if I am working in all 3 Adobe apps at once (not at all uncommon)? What then?

Although this is the best advice I have been able to find so far and I thank you for it, it is still very "if-y." And very hard to come by. Adobe's behavior here is rather like the newspaper that makes a serious error on the front page and then prints an apology a week later on the bottom of an inside column on page 24 (or some other deep left-hand page), in 6 point type!!

The clear (although unstated) implication of this advice is that I should not expect font management programs (Suitcase, Font Reserve nor FontAgent Pro) to handle MM fonts. Is this correct? If it is, please state it clearly. This, of course means that MM fonts must always be active and will only appear in the font menus of Adobe applications (don't try to use them in Freehand or Xpress, let alone MS Word.) Does it not? And yet, most of my work is still done in Xpress, because most of my printers still aren't accepting InDesign files (most do not even have the app installed; hell, most are still running OS 9.)

Frankly, when I think of all the time and money that Adobe spent promoting the MM technology and all the money I (and many others) spent on MM fonts, I cannot help but feel betrayed by Adobe. Not for abandoning the technology (which I can accept as a matter settled in the marketplace), but for leaving high-and-dry we designers that bought into the technology and are now finding that not only does the new Mac OS have trouble with MM technology, but the Adobe design applicaitons for which it was intended also have trouble with it! What are we expected to do??? Will Adobe be issuing free postscript or OpenType versons of their MM fonts? No way! Or does Adobe expect us to convert all of our MM fonts to post script using a conversion utility (like TransType)? Yes, I rather suspect this is the route they would have us take.

Please do not reply to this inquiry (except to praise it, of course) unless you can speak for Adobe on the matter. Thank you.

Report · Dec 02, 2002

Kirk,

Although your frustration strikes some familiar chords all around, please understand that this is specifically a "user-to-user" forum, with the Q&A participation intended to take place primarily between the end-users of Adobe products. Although some of Adobe's staff will visit and participate in the discussions, it is generally on their own time.

Thomas has been generous in his time in these forums to clarify points and to enlighten us on a number of typographic issues, but it would be unfair to expect him to answer every question.

All that I can contribute is that Jaguar (OS X 10.2) is supposed to address some of the shortcomings of the Apple OS as it interfaces with PostScript multiple masters fonts.

Perhaps, if Thomas is available, he can more fully address your questions.

Neil
Forum Host

Report · Dec 03, 2002

My mention of application-specific fonts folders applies equally well to the Adobe common fonts folder in question.

Now that Apple has fixed their end of the MM support problem on OS X, Adobe is well aware that our apps now have some difficulties in interacting with the system support. I can't comment on future Adobe or Apple release plans, but be assured that we do take this problem seriously.

While we are concerned about fixing problems for our installed base of users for now, it is also the case that we have been discontinuing sales of MM fonts as we come out with OpenType equivalents. We still support the multiple master format, but that support will not continue forever.

Regards,

T

Thomas Phinney
Program Mgr., Western Language Fonts
Adobe Systems

Report · Dec 04, 2002

Neil Keller and Thomas Phinney: Thank you both for your comments, for allowing me to blow off some steam on the matter of multiple master fonts and for filling me in on the ground rules of this forum.

Thomas, the solution of installing MM fonts in the Library>Applications Support>Adobe>Fonts folder works fine for all my Adobe apps and I am relieved to be able to use them again.

Now, could anyone offer advice on how to make MM fonts available in Quark Xpress 5.0 in Classic? Should I install my MM fonts in the Classic System Folder>Fonts folder? If so, do they need to be removed from the Library>Applications Support>Adobe>Fonts folder or can the two copies of MM fonts co-exist (since one set is available only to Adobe apps in OS X)?

Neil, thank you for hosting this forum. Is this the only place you know of to get on-going information about MM issues, or is there some "official" place on Adobe's Web site?

It seems like it might be best, long term, to convert all my MM fonts to standard post script using FontLab or Fontographer. This could be a very time-consuming project (depending on how many styles and instances I might choose to preserve), but it would allow the fonts to be handled (activated and deactiveated) by font management software and be available to all applications. Any comments on this concept would be welcome.

Happy Holidays to all.

Regards, Kirk

Report · Dec 04, 2002

Thomas,

One thing I've noticed is that Adobe's font management allows for aliases of fonts to be put into any of the Adobe font folders.

Indeed, you can put an alias of a folder of fonts in there and it works.

More! You can put an alias of a folder of aliases of folders of fonts in there and it works.

Apple's font management only works with the fonts themselves.

Score Adobe 10, Apple 1. Apple gets its one point because it defined a way of differentiating among fonts of the same name that unfortunately doesn't work with Adobe's font management.

Dave

Report · Dec 04, 2002

Dave,

Gotta remember that trick when I finally move over to X!

Kirk,

Thanks! Your comments are much appreciated. Personally, I like MM fonts and I'm sorry that they never got the respect and acceptance that they deserve. I still use them on a regular basis under Mac OS 9.2.2 and ATM Deluxe 4.6.2.

As far as information on Multiple Masters fonts, the "official" information about them is probably limited to the Adobe searchable Knowledgebase found elsewhere on the Adobe Website. For "unofficial" information, these User-to-User forums are a good bet. For type as it relates to a specific Adobe application, post there. For general type questions, your call -- either the ATM/Type forum or, for typographic issues, here.

My preference would be not to have to tear apart the MM fonts you have. They're supposed to work better under Jaguar.

Glad to see you here. Don't be a stranger!

Neil
Forum Host

Report · Dec 06, 2002

Kirk:

Fonts installed in the Classic System: Fonts folder will be available to *all* your apps (both Classic and Carbon).

Of course, you need to be running ATM Light 4.6.x under Classic.

In general, I don't know of problems from having the exact *same* font installed in two different locations, though I won't swear there are none. The interesting thing to find out is if you put the MM fonts in the Classic fonts folder, and *also* in the Adobe app location, will this allow them to work in all your apps, and have all the instances show up in your Adobe apps under OS X? I haven't the slightest idea, but it's probably worth trying.

Cheers,

T

Report · Mar 11, 2003

Hi Neil and Thomas,

It's been a while and I have good news and bad news. The good news is that for a while all my multiple master problems went away. The combination of Extensis Suitcase X v.10.2 and OS X v.10.2.3 allowed all my MM fonts work in all applications: Adobe and non-Adobe, Classic and OS X. I was very pleased.

The bad news is that, since updating to Mac OS X v.10.2.4, Adobe appications only "see" the regular instance (and, curiously, one other instance in some cases) of multiple master fonts activated in Suitcase.

Microsoft Office applications, however, continue to see all instances of MM fonts as does Quark Xpress (in Classic). This is odd, don't you think? Quark and Microsoft presumably have no vested interest in MM technology and yet they can handle the acivation of MM fonts by Suitcase, but Adobe, the pioneer and champion of MM technology cannot.

Furthermore, the fact that Quark and Microsoft applications continue to handle MM fonts completely in spite of OS updates makes it appear that the incomplete perfomance of MM fonts in Adobe applications (when managed by Suitcase at least) is not due to lack of MM support on Apple or Extensis' part, but on Adobe's part.

And still, Adobe continues to be very unforthcoming and unhelpful to those poor souls who bought into their MM technology.

I appreciate Dave Saunder's discovery about the use of aliases and I may make use of it. The issue here is that fonts in Adobe application font folders are not easily activated and deactivated (not to mention auto-activated and auto-deactivated).

It seems clear that, as time goes on, there will be less and less support for multiple master fonts both from Adobe and Apple. This leads me to think that the best solution long term is to convert MM font instances to standard post script fonts.

What is the alternative to someone as heavily invested in MM fonts as I am? Remove them from Suitcase and install them (or aliases) in Adobe applications' font folders, activate and deactivate them in the Finder using a "Deactivated MM fonts" folder or some similar strategy? Then install duplicates in the Classic System Folder Fonts folder (to make them available to Quark)? In this case they will never be available to MS Word (or any other OS X application), of course.

You see the problem. If MM fonts cannot be managed by a Font management application, the workaround becomes so complex and convoluted that is begins to resemble a digital version of the old Rube Goldfarb devices!

Your comments are very welcome. Thank you for enduring my frustrations.

Kirk

Report · Mar 12, 2003

When Apple fixed MM support at the OS level in 10.2, Adobe discovered that some assumptions we'd made about the OS level support were incorrect.

I'm not allowed to comment about features and bug fixes in future versions of Adobe applications, but I can say that we are still supporting MM fonts for quite a while yet, and acknowledge this as a bug.

All this was not due to any deliberate desire to have MM fonts stop working. Indeed, I personally lobbied my counterparts at Apple quite hard to fix/implement MM support in OS X in the first place, only to be quite chagrined to discover that Adobe's own applications still had an issue.

Regards,

T

Thomas Phinney
Fonts Program Mgr.,
Adobe Systems

Report · Mar 17, 2003

My Apple retailer, with a large and active service crew in my local, says to "drop MM fonts, there is not a fix, it's old technology." I have several years worth of work into projects which all use MM fonts. I will now resign to doing 4 to 6 years of re-building these jobs to use conventional Adobe Post-Script type. It's a sad day in mudville.

Report · Mar 17, 2003

Hmmm.... I must say, if you're switching font formats today, I'd go to OpenType instead of Type 1. Certainly Type 1 will be supported for a long time to come, but support will some day be phased out in favor of OpenType.

T

Report · Mar 21, 2003

Thomas: Thank you for your information about Apple and Adobe MM support. I am pleased and comforted to know that you are championing the cause of MM compatibilty at Adobe. Please accept my encouragement. Keep up the fight.

Perhaps there is still hope, though currently I find myself in the same position as Ken (3/17) although I have not yet decided that I must rebuild all my MM projects.

For the time being, I am willing to put all my MM fonts in the Adobe font folder so they are available to Adobe applications only. If I need them in Quark (in Classic), I will move them out of the Adobe fonts folder and into the Classic System Fonts folder. Very cumbersome, I know, but less time consuming than rebuilding these projects.

Report · Mar 21, 2003

Well, it's not exactly a fight--people like to get these bugs fixed when they come up!

Sorry for the trouble. Check back in for an update when the next versions of the affected Adobe products ship.

Regards,

T

Report · Mar 25, 2003

I have just discovered that MM fonts will embed correctly in PDFs that are made from Illustrator 10.0.3 if I use File menu > Print > Create Adobe PDF.

I find that going via that route allows you to embed MM fonts in a PDF; while "Save As an Adobe PDF" throws up the message about protected fonts not being embeddable.

However, I am using Mac OS 9.2.2 and I don't know if this will work on OSX.

Report · Mar 29, 2003

I have found that the time it takes to save a document in InDesign is lengthened from a few seconds when using Type 1 fonts to between 25 and 35 seconds when using MM fonts.

Is this a bug? Is there something I can do to avoid this?

Report · Mar 29, 2003

Kirk,

Multiple master fonts ARE also Type 1 fonts. (the Type 1 fonts you refer to are actually single master fonts).

Please respond with MacOS version (can we assume MacOS X? Native? Classic emulation? Or native MacOS 9.x?), if applicable ATM version, ID version; which font manager you are using (if any); how much memory you have allocated to ID (and, if running ATM, go to ATM's Preferences --> General --> Character cache size). And tell us where your fonts are installed.

As multiple master fonts are more complex, and display many more instances than single master fonts, depending how you are running this, it could be as simple as increasing memory allocation to your application and ATM. If running MacOS X, you should upgrade to 10.2.4 or later, as there were issues with multiple master fonts in some older versions of MacOS X.

Please get back to us with system details, so we're not shooting in the dark. Thanks!

Neil

Report · Apr 01, 2003

Neil,

Thanks for your help. I am running OS X v.10.2.4, and using Suitcase v.10.2.1 and ID v.2.0.2.

I have placed all my MM fonts in root>Library>Application Support>Adobe>Fonts. This (correct me if I'm wrong) makes my MM fonts available to all Adobe applications (and only Adobe applications.) And indeed it is working as expected; all insstançes of MM fonts appear in Adobe applications.

I would prefer to install them in Suitcase an thereby be able to easily activate, deactvate and auto-activate them, but I found that, although this worked fine in OS 10.2.3, it does not work in 10.2.4. Instead Adobe applications see only one or two instances of MM fonts in this new OS version when managed by Suitcase.

The problem is that whenever I use MM fonts (even if it's just one page with nothing but text) ID takes about 35 seconds to save the document; saving should only take a second or two and does, if there are no MM fonts in the piece.

Kirk

Report · Apr 27, 2003

This forum topic has been most helpful, but I'm still at a loss on how to make MM fonts work right in OS X 10.2.5, Suitcase 10.2.1 and Quark 4.11. My specific problem is with Myriad; it appears perfectly on screen but prints in Courier. Is there a tool I need to convert each instance into a separate Type 1 file? Would that make any difference. I've tried a demo of TransType, but that didn't seem to do a thing. Thanks in advance for any assistance the forum members can provide.
--m

Report · Apr 27, 2003

Michael,

I've come across a bug that is related to the recent versions of LaserWriter (and I believe Adobe PS) that may be the problem.

I've checked the Quark site and found their Knowledge Base document #3636 which describes the issue, but for me, does not solve it. http://www.quark.com/support/techinfo/article.cfm?idx=3636

What I've done (and it is a pain...) is to copy the content of a document into a new QuarkXPress file. Then it seems to be OK for a bit. Printing documents as PDFs, by the way, are not a problem.

Hope this helps.

Neil