Here's something odd: for those of us who read the forums by email, the URL Bahkti offered shows up as: webmail.adobe.com/OWA/redir.aspx?C=79a4528fed12431e9088c7ff552d5449&URL=http%3a%2f2fblogs.adobe.com%2fcfbuilder%2f2009%2f07%2fdebugging_in_cfbuilder.html But when I login to the forums to visit the message, the URL shows up correctly as: blogs.adobe.com/cfbuilder/2009/07/debugging_in_cfbuilder.html Now, maybe Bahkti went back and edited that since posting it originally. Or maybe the forums software does something whacky with URLs when the messages are sent out as emails here. I'd noticed it before. That would be a shame. Anyway, since some others may not have thought to log in to check it out, but wanted to know the correct URL, that's why I've written this. I have also removed the http prefix from the URLs above in the hope that, if there is some oddity with the forum software, the prefix not being there will help avoid the problem. 🙂 ... View more

Adam, I was just trying to help. If I missed a sentence in the thread, I apologize. I meant no offense. So, you're saying it doesn't work for CFM files for you, while I'm confirming that it does for me. So we need to figure out the differences in our setups: I'm on the Standalone edition. How about you? Are you maybe using the plugin edition? If you're on the plugin edition, what version of Eclipse? The standalone CFB comes on Eclipse 3.4. Either way, do you have any plugins installed? I have none in the version where I tested this. I'm running the public beta build of CFB, 240773. How about you? And Steven, who originally raised this, it'll be good to hear from you too whenever you may read this. ... View more

Well, there's good news and bad news on the shortcut front, with respect to making things "more like" another favored editor. You've heard how you could at least create snippets, but I agree that just getting familiar key combinations to work would be nice. So the good news is that there is in fact a feature to set profiles in CFBuilder, and in fact there is already support for different editors. See window>preferences>coldfusion>editor profiles, where you can select among default, cfeclipse, and dreamweaver. So far so good. This affects the keystrokes as set in window>preferences>coldfusion>editor profiles>editor>keys, which include things like wrapping code in comments, quotes, pound signs, etc. You'll see that those do change to different values for each profile selected. Now the bad news: there's no interface feature for us to modify these ourselves. It seems a read-only interface, unlike the keys feature in the general>keys preference feature. It would be nice not only to be able to change these, but for folks to be able to share them. Again, I do realize there's the snippets feature, but I don't want to have to use ctrl-J to get the code I want. I (like others in this thread) want to use favored key combinations, or better yet, would like either Adobe to have provided them or for us, as a community, to be able to share them amongst ourselves. I've searched the CFBuilder files to find any reference to the phrases in that window, and I find none that is editable. Any thoughts, anyone? /charlie ... View more

Good news about wrapping: I'm finding that simply changing the preference (as Hemant had suggested) worked fine (in a CFML file). Adam, are you saying it's not working for you? Or were you really just responding to Dipanwita, assuming that was required. I'd understand that. Let us know if it works as easily as Hemant said. One thing I will report is that while the preference pane said you have to restart the editor for it to take effect, I find that I did not. When I turned on wrapping, it happened immediately (in a CFM file). But turning wrapping off DID seem to require a restart to take effect. But note that it's not a restart of the workbench (CFBuilder itself) but rather just any file that you have opened (so they really mean the "editor" for a given file). Just closing and re-opening a file caused it to turn off the wrapping (if it had been turned off once having been on). Of course, a restart of the workbench also will cause the wrapping to be gone next time it's opened (once turned off). One other curious thing: if you have line numbers enabled, while the wrapping does take effect immediately (when first turned on), it does seem to confuse the line numbering. A closing/opening of any file (or a restart of the workbench) fixes that. Some other good news: It's nice to see that the wrapping is smart enough to wrap not to a fixed width but rather adjusts automatically to the width of the editor pane is (so if you open new views on the right, the wrapping point decreases, as it should). Adam, and Steven, can you confirm that wrapping works for you? And if you have a moment, can you confirm what I saw, if it interests you? Thanks. /charlie ... View more

If you're saying it helped, James, glad to hear that. Since it was the first forum message and some who joined since it opened may have missed it, I'll reiterate the point: If you're new to CFBuilder, you really want to take advantage of the getting started resources. Besides those I mentioned in the first message of this thread: http://forums.adobe.com/message/2105190 See also a subsequent thread on the topic: http://forums.adobe.com/message/2105192 Hope that helps. /charlie ... View more

@srcdinatale, I think you've got it right. I have to admit I've not worked with DLLs so some of this is guessing. Maybe someone else can offer confirmation or correction. I don't doubt that IIS could be configured (by default or optionally) to run DLLs some way, but no, that wouldn't be built into the internal web server in CF. Now, it does happen that you can configure the internal web server to handle different extensions than the default CFM and CFC, etc. There are various blog entries on that, including http://www.revolutionwebdesign.com/blog/index.cfm?mode=entry&entry=EF73296F-D247-9BB9-97915FE0604E7828 But I suppose you would need to look at your IIS configuration (of extensions for your web site) to see how it's set to handle .dll extensions. Even then, I'm not sure how you could tell CF to execute those. Maybe someone else will see a solution. Is the other server not Windows? Why not install and configure IIS instead? If you did that, you'd then need to run the CF Web Server Configuration tool to connect it to CF. Hope that helps. /charlie ... View more

First, thanks for your kind regards, Kit. Second, I see I misread your note. I thought you were asking how to restart CF from within the monitor. And while I said there's no built-in provision for that, I see that you used the feature to have Alerts trigger a CFC to call a restart script. OK. Third, well, you still are asking "If there is a way to programmatically start the CF8 server monitor after CF8 restarts". I did explain that the server monitor does start immediately. The "start" buttons remain enabled over CF restarts (something that does indeed surprise many, especially if they enable the "start memory tracking" and it crashes their machine, and then a restart keeps it enabled so it crashes again.) That should be the answer to your question, as I sense somehow you missed it. Let us know. All that said, I'd like to offer a different thought on your just killing the server whenever there are hung requests. Would you like instead to find out and resolve the root cause for the unresponsive server? Sure, some may say "we don't have time for diagnostics. We need to get the server back up and running immediately", but there are plenty of apps where there's a lot of pain in just crashing the server. Now, one may say, "but if it's become responsive, what choice do we have?". But you do have choices, really, and there are features in the monitor that can help you find and resolve the root cause of the problem instead. First, you note that you couldn't kill requests. That can certainly happen if a request is doing a tag like CFQUERY or CFHTTP (anything talking to something outside of CF).These can't be interrupted so the request can't be killed. So you need to know what the request that's hung is doing, to get to the root cause of the problem. Bringing down the server only masks the root cause of the problem. It's like firing a cashier each time there's money missing from the register, when a recording might catch that it's the manager skimming the till. So you need to be able to "zoom the camera" in on the request to find out what it's doing. Fortunately, the Server monitor helps you in either of two ways: automatically or manually. First, since the unresponsive server alert detects when requests that are not responding, that's when you have a problem. And if you choose to enable that a "snapshot" be triggered by the alert, it shows you details about all requests that are running. And in the "thread dump" at the bottom of the snapshot you can find the CF (JRPP) threads that are associated with CF requests. Second, you can see a stack trace for an individual request if you enable start profiling, and then double-click on the request while it's running. Either way, the stack trace will show what line of CFML code is being executed at the time the stack trace is requested. And if you view a couple of them within a short period of time, that can tell you if the request is indeed hung (waiting on some one tag to run) or may really just be working really hard and it needs time to finish. Hope that helps. /charlie ... View more

@kit001, the answer would be no. The alert feature runs from within CF itself: if it goes down, the Alert process goes down with it. It's natural, of course, to assume the Server Monitor is somehow external to CF, but it really isn't. The Flex App itself is, sure, but it's just exposing info you create and enable that's managed from within CF itself (turning on alerts, turning on/off the "start" buttons, etc.) If CF goes down, the alert mechanism can't detect that the server's gone down. That's just not its job: indeed, you'll notice there's no such alert available. It can only monitor things about the server while it stays up. Some may think, "well, might this be the job of the Multiserver monitor?" Again, no it's not. The Multiserver monitor is just another flex app that can watch what's going on inside any of the CF servers it's told to watch. It doesn't, itself, have any power to trigger events, restarts, etc. Bottom line: to have CF restart, something outside of it must restart it. (Note that on Windows, the Services feature has an option to cause a service to restart if it goes down.) Finally, you had asked, "is there any way to start the server monitor automatically right after CF8 restarts". Again, no. First, as stated above, the server monitor is not itself something separate from CF (except in being a Flex interface). More to the point, the alert feature is part of the monitor built into CF. But someone may read this as asking if there's a way to do the equivalent of the "start monitoring" button (offered in the Server Monitor) so that it's enabled "automatically right after CF8 restarts." Well, the Start buttons are toggles which, once enabled, always cause CF to in fact do the selected monitoring/profiling/memory tracking immediately upon startup. You don't need to "turn them on", if you've already done so while the server was up. But again: they don't have anything to do with restarting CF. You really have to rely on other tools for that. For any readers interested, I have a 4-part series on the CF 8 Server Monitor in the Adobe Dev Center. More at: http://www.carehart.org/blog/client/index.cfm/2008/7/30/45page_server_monitor_guide Hope that's helpful. /charlie PS I can also offer consulting or training assistance, for as little time as may be needed, in working with the Server Monitor or other monitoring and troubleshooting tools for CF. ... View more

As ke4pym says, limiting by IP address would seem your best bet. But beyond that, to your original question, yes it is also possible to set debugging on a per app (or per template) basis using the tag CFSETTING SHOWDEBUGOUTPUT="no", either in a single template or in the application.cfm/application.cfc controlling an app or a portion thereof. To address your point: no, debugging in CF is not an all-or-nothing affair. It's really quite flexible. /charlie ... View more

Jilani, you mention that this seems connected to SiteMinder. Do you mean you have your own version of SiteMinder, separate from the built-in one that came with CF 4 and 5? I wonder if there could be a conflict between them. Why are you using the full SiteMinder? And do you really need it? More curious is that you say this spike happens every hour. Can you confirm if it's every 67 minutes, specifically? If so, then I would assert that this could be a problem related to the client variable purge process, which I discuss here: http://www.carehart.org/blog/client/index.cfm/2006/10/4/bots_and_spiders_and_poor_CF_performance But that may not be the issue if simply enabling/disabling the siteminder service will immediately recreate your problem....unless somehow the DB used by SiteMinder is the same DB used for client variables. Do you have any datasources listed in the CF Admin page for client variables? Any chance there's a connection between them and siteminder? /charlie PS This whole issue of client variables and how they can hurt you unexpectedly is something I'll dicuss this Thursday at noon US EDT, when I present "Clients and Sessions and Crashes, Oh My", to the online ColdFusion Meetup: www.coldfusionmeeetup.com. ... View more

@somedude, I realize you weren't speaking to me (or anyone in particular) in your quip about seeking help from Obiwan, but seriously, if you'd like some direct help, where I look over your shoulders (remotely, via Connect), contact me off-list (charlie@carehart.org). I normally provide such help on a pay basis (carehart.org/consulting), which can be prorated to as little as 15 minutes of help. And clearly I provide help free here in the forums, but if what we've offered so far hasn't helped, then I'm curious about the challenge and may learn from it myself. I'm available this afternoon or over the weekend. Message was edited by: charlie arehart--Added first phrase clarifying that I DID realize he wasn't speaking to me or anyone in particular in asking for help from obi-wan. 🙂 My offer was unrelated to his saying that. ... View more

Besides what Ken offered, I'd point out as well that when you're stuck like this, without an install to look at for questions related to starting/stopping CF, it's critical to remember that there's more to the CF docs than just the CFML Reference Manual (and the Developer's Guide, for those who do know of that gem). There is also "installing and using CF" and "Configuraing and administering CF", all available at livedocs.adobe.com or in PDF form at http://www.adobe.com/support/documentation/en/coldfusion/. I don't mean that to sound like RTFM. Just trying to clarify that there is indeed a M to R, when you feel stuck like you did. 🙂 It may well offer valuable insight. Both are slim but often useful books. Hope that helps. /charlie ... View more

@Mixtheo, you said originally, "I can see jrun memory usage is spiking when the task runs but I do not get out of memory errors and the other sites are still responsive." But your last note said, "Checking the -out log in the runtime/logs dir confirms that I am getting java out of memory errors." So just to be clear, is it that you couldn't see the errors before, but the out log showed them? I ask because I want to help you connect if the problem is directly related to the pages in error (you said earlier, "The code is memory intensive and pulls large resultsets from the db and loops over them to send elerts to approx. 40k clients. By adding exittemplate calls I can short-circuit the code and so I can see that certain loops are causing the problem." If the problem is really this one template, then it's curious. The end of the CFQUERY should release the memory to garbage collection. Are there any CFC's involved here? You could be having the classic issue of storing instances in shared scopes where not using VAR scope causes unexpected memory leaks. But there are also other problems that can happen to affect you. You don't say if you're on CF8 Standard or Enterprise. If the latter, there can be useful info in the CF 8 Server Monitor. But as ke4pym, there's also a lot to be gained from FusionReactor as well, if you're on 8 Standard. I love both, and help people use them all the time in my consulting and training practice, but there are some things the CF8 Monitor can show that FR cannot, such as how many sessions you have active. In fact, if you're on Standard, I would recommend you check to see how many sessions you have, which may have a bigger impact on memory than you'd expect. I blogged about an easy to use tool. It doesn't say how much memory is used per session, but some have been shocked to find they had tens of thousands of sessions active. See http://www.carehart.org/blog/client/index.cfm/2009/1/22/tracking_count_of_sessions_per_application. Hope that helps. /charlie ... View more

Wow, that's interesting (that you can invoke the web service without a username/password in CFML, but can't register it in the Admin). Still, I want to understand what makes you want to do that (register it in the admin). You say, "I have a pool of web services to manage so I assume admin to be the best place to maintain them seeing on a broader perspective." I'm not sure what you mean by that. Besides a little more explanation, I'd still ask: if you can't get around this (not saying that it should fail, but just if it can't be resolved), do you at least agree that you don't NEED to define the web services this way to use them. In fact, the opposite is true: if you invoke them in CFML (whether with createobject/cfobject/cfinvoke) that will populate this Admin page for each web service that's invoked, so you could "get around" the problem and have all your web services listed this way, for whatever value that offers. But yes, it seems it should work the way you want to. I'm not denying that. Just trying to help. /charlie ... View more

Have you tried running CF from the command line (using the cfstart.bat file in [cf]\bin, or using the jrun.exe in jrun4\bin if running multiserver), rather than running it as a service?  That may give you more insight into the problem. You may also get prompts (due to Vista security) that are not offered to a "service" (since it can't respond). If that's not it, and if you are running the multiserver version of CF, I wonder what would happen if you stopped any other instances first, and then tried to start this one instance.    Hope that helps /charlie ... View more

@vsuri, first, do you realize that you don't need to "register" a web service at all? The admin interface feature is populated when you call a web service in CFML (using CFINVOKE, CFOBJECT, or createObject) to invoke it. The fact that it shows up in the admin is generally not even noticed by most. It's not something you NEED to do, if you're having an issue. That said, if you try to invoke it, are you also required to provide a username/password? That would be odd, if calling it from other systems. /charlie ... View more

@original_somedude, I don't quite know why you're having the hassles you are. I run Vista and CF8 and didn't have any of the problems you describe. I also don't recall jumping through any hoops to get it running. I also updated to SP1 months ago, again with no drama at all. Have you looked in the Windows Event viewer to see if perhaps there's more diagnostic info there? ... View more

Sure, and like I said, it would be good to get to the bottom of the problem, but before concluding that it's necessarily about CF8, since the trusted cache helped a little, can you tell us what you see as the template cache hit ratio (per the server monitor, or Admin API). If anyone there is averse to the Server Monitor, note that you don't need to turn on any of the "start" buttons  (monitoring, profiling, or memory tracking). Just look at the "Template Cache Status" page (under the "Request Statistics" section in the Statistics tab). I wonder if it may be sub-optimal (meaning, other than 100%). Be sure to look at it after the server's been up and running and had lots of typical traffic. Let us know what you see. As for your observation about the effect of the directory watcher with a large number of templates, I've not heard it to be a problem. When the directory watcher came out in CF 7, many had the same concern and I seem to recall assertions that it shouldn't matter how large the directories were that were being watched. Are you willing to try it? Again, it was an answer to the concern that your developers didn't like the trusted cache option. If enabling it solves this problem, even if only some, it just seems worth at least trying. But beyond that, let us know what you see going on in the template cache. I wonder if you may have a problem related to the loading and unloading of templates (going back to the original observation about the JVM, but looking at it more from a CF internals perspective than from a JVM perspective.) There's got to be an answer (and something unique about your setup), as I've not heard it being a general problem (that wasn't solved by the JVM update). As always, just trying to help. ... View more

Folks, are you sure that your that the page is completely blank (you do a view source in the browser and there's nothing there)? It can happen, but it can also be that the page has incomplete content that the browser doesn't show. Just checking. If the page fails before CF/JRun can dump any of the buffered output to the browser, you could be left with nothing. Of course, CF should get an error and the user should see that. Along those lines, are you also sure that there's no problem with any error handling (page-level with CFCATCH, application-level with CFERROR or onError, or server-level via the Admin site-wide handler)? Again, I realize that may not be it, but just worth checking. Finally, have you looked not just in the CF application.log but also in the -out.log, which would be in the [cf]\runtime\logs (or [jrun]\logs, if running multiserver)? They may offer more clues for you. ... View more

@Dhivya, I'm afraid this is just a possible limitation in using the Memory Tracking. It's a very resource-intensive operation. It works fine in development, and I've even seen some production sites use it also, but most experience what you have. The general consensus is just to avoid that feature in such a case. But there are a couple of other thoughts to consider. One is that you absolutely DO NOT need to start memory tracking in order to view the use of memory by CF (in aggregate). Go to the Memory Usage Summary page (in the Monitor, under the "Memory Usage" section on the "Statistics" tab) to see a graph of memory usage over recent time. Similarly, you can even see what simple variables are set in the session, application, and server scopes by viewing the corresponding pages for those in that "Memory Usage" section. You just won't see complex objects (queries, CFCs, arrays, etc.) in there without memory tracking turned on. Sadly, that has misled some who misunderstood that they weren't really seeing "all" variables in a given session, application, or the server scope. You also won't see any of the things that purport to show "size" with regard to memory. They'll be 0. But the bottom line is that the server monitor is still extremely useful without having that start memory tracking enabled. I wrote a 4-part series of articles for the Adobe Dev Center on the server monitor, which may help some readers. See http://www.carehart.org/articles/#2007_2 for the link to the first article, which points then to the others. Or you can skip to the other articles via links there on my site. One last thing I'll add, which most miss: you can use the "filter settings" feature (a tab within the settings button at the top of the monitor) to limit what code directories are monitored at all by the server monitor. In that case, you may find that you can turn on memory tracking while monitoring only THOSE pages you're interested in. I've not yet worked with someone who had the problem and was willing to turn it on to try this (since if it doesn't work, it can crash the server). If you do it, and it works for you, please let us know. (If it doesn't, notice also the "profile filter" option to try instead.) I do discuss these settings in the 4th article in the series, if you need a little more help in finding and using them (though at the time I did not discuss using it specifically to get around this occasional problem some have.) Hope that's helpful. ... View more

Erick, I think the conclusion about why it's faster is not that "run.exe process is not traversing down through folders looking for application.cfc or application.cfm templates". Rather, with trusted cache on, it's that CF no longer looks for each template (not just application.cfc/cfm) before it executes it, if it's already in the cache. And BTW, you could still have it looking for files, if they're not in the cache, which could happen if the cache is not sized appropriately for the number of templates that get put in there. Just being clear. In fact, I've seen people do some strange coding practices that REALLY hammered the template cache, so that even with trusted cache they were still causing that IO to the files as the template cache was clearing out files often to make room for newly requested ones. At least in CF 8 Enterprise, the Server Monitor (and Admin API) report the template cache hit ratio, so you can know if this is happening. We used to have that in CF5 and before, too, in the CFSTAT, but it reports 0 since CF6. Anyway, just one last thing about your observation of trying to run it in production. You conclude that it just won't fly, but are you saw you are aware of an automated approach using the Admin API. Do you know if it goes the extra step of using the CF Directory Watcher event gateway? If so, there's really no reason for the devs to balk. It's an amazing clean solution. More here: http://www.adobe.com/devnet/coldfusion/articles/cacheclear.html Hope that's helpful. Back to your original issue, it still seems that having the sandbox on is adding a burden on your machine. We need to get to the bottom of that. It may be that there's something unique about your setup (or volume) compared to others, or perhaps there's a known issue that I'm just not aware of myself. ... View more

Jonathan, about CFSTAT, just to be clear, it reports the same info as the Perfmon stats you were seeking. That's all I was trying to say, and that if they DO work, then the Perfmon stats should work. As for "java monitoring", well, don't confuse FusionReactor and SeeFusion with jvm memory monitoring tools. That's a whole different kettle of fish. These are indeed Java monitors, but that's not obvious to us as CFers using them. The point is simply that they make it crystal clear what requests are running, and help you drill into them to know why they may not be running well. I should have pointed to another introductory resource on using FR (as a CFer), at http://www.carehart.org/articles/#2008_6. As for the "enterprise monitor", do you mean the CF 8 Server monitor? . And as for it being expensive, do you mean that you have to buy Enterprise to get it? Or by "eating your young" do you maybe mean that it can be expensive in terms of resources? That's only if you turn on the memory tracking, in my experience.I'll add that I also have articles at my site that I've done as extensive introductions to the CF8 monitor. As for your heap size quesiton, I don't yet run 64 bit so someone else may need to chime in, but I suspect that if you're running CF in 32 mode you may be limited to the same 2gig memory space (and therefore a heap of about 1.3-1.5gb). But you ask if reducing the heap will make GC more aggressive. I think this sort of conjecture sometimes is fruitless. There are differences in JVMs (so what people say/know/read regarding 1.4 may not apply to 1.6), and what GC agorithm is used (and what the default is in different JVM versions), and so on. Really, you need to test things. You can observe GC processing by enabling GC logging. Still, I'd argue you may be heading down a wrong rabbit hole. What led you to jump from the problem you described to GC issues? I know many articles/blogs point to that as the first thing to investigate/tweak, but I don't agree. My approach (and recommendation to my clients) always is to get the right diagnostic info to tell you what's wrong, then go fix that. In my experience, it's hardly ever code. Instead, it's nearly always configuration, whether of CF, JRun, the JVM, the DB, the OS, the web server, the network, etc. And honestly, it's often very simple once you get the right diagnostics. So what about my last question, about what the runtime out log said before the last error? I have various things I might guess it could be, from experience, but again lets let your system tell us what's wrong. ... View more

No, Jochem, I'm only doing things through the traditional web interface. Perhaps some of the reason some things show up to people is based on whether one posts in one or the other interface. That, and the other things you mention, are really a shame to hear. Hope they're sorted out. ... View more

Jonathan, look at the error previous to that one. Often there's more than what that last error shows. No, you don't need to hop to another platform. I've never seen a problem that couldn't be resolved, as long as one follows the trail of diagnostic info. Let's hear what you see next. Also, did any of the other info above help, in terms of getting metrics? ... View more

Jonathan, I don't run CF on Windows 2008 yet, so can't help there. (It is supported, if anyone wonders, per http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/systemreqs/, so it should work.) I'd ask first: are you able to use CFSTAT (from the coldfusion8/bin directory)? That will give you the same metrics.If it doesn't work, then perfmon won't get them, either. Just to be clear, did you restart CF after enabling it? Don't recall if you should have to, but worth a shot. Until that's resolved, and as for getting to the bottom of your problems, there are also the JRun metrics that you can enable,which are mostly the same (and more). Just google to find more on that. You could also use tools like FusionReactor or SeeFusion, or still others (some are free, and the commercial ones have free trials). See my list at: ColdFusion Monitoring Tools http://www.cf411.com/#cfmon. Finally, as for finding answers, don't rely only on the "cf logs" (literally, those in coldfusion8/logs). Look in the coldfusion8/runtime/logs (or those using multiserver, look in jrun4/logs). Those often have far more useful info. You may also see log files in the coldfusion8/runtime/bin, if you're having crashes of the hotspot compiler. The Windows Event Viewer may also sometimes have useful clues. I discuss all of these and more in a presentation I did: CF911: Tools and Techniques for CF Server Troubleshooting http://www.carehart.org/presentations/#cf911 Hope that helps, until someone helps with the specific 2k8 challenge you're having. ... View more

Great to hear, and glad to help. If you don't mind, could you mark the question as answered? That could help future readers and other helpers. Thanks. ... View more

It would be a real shame to see you (and others) leave. Can I just offer my observation that at least this forum, the "ColdFusion Server Administration" one, is low volume enough that I have no problem following it via email. I realize that for some it's NNTP or nothing. Just offering that one thought before we see you go. ... View more