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To RAID or not to RAID, that is the question

LEGEND ,
Nov 16, 2009 Nov 16, 2009

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People often ask: Should I raid my disks?

The question is simple, unfortunately the answer is not. So here I'm going to give you another guide to help you decide when a raid array is advantageous and how to go about it. Notice that this guide also applies to SSD's, with the expection of the parts about mechanical failure.

What is a RAID?

RAID is the acronym for "Redundant Array of Inexpensive Disks". The concept originated at the University of Berkely in 1987 and was intended to create large storage capacity with smaller disks without the need for very expensive and reliable disks, that were very expensive at that time, often a tenfold of smaller disks. Today prices of hard disks have fallen so much that it often is more attractive to buy a single 1 TB disk than two 500 GB disks. That is the reason that today RAID is often described as "Redundant Array of Independent Disks".

The idea behind RAID is to have a number of disks co-operate in such a way that it looks like one big disk. Note that 'Spanning' is not in any way comparable to RAID, it is just a way, like inverse partitioning, to extend the base partition to use multiple disks, without changing the method of reading and writing to that extended partition.

Why use a RAID?

Now with these lower disks prices today, why would a video editor consider a raid array? There are two reasons:

1. Redundancy (or security)

2. Performance

Notice that it can be a combination of both reasons, it is not an 'either/or' reason.

Does a video editor need RAID?

No, if the above two reasons, redundancy and performance are not relevant. Yes if either or both reasons are relevant.

Re 1. Redundancy

Every mechanical disk will eventually fail, sometimes on the first day of use, sometimes only after several years of usage. When that happens, all data on that disk are lost and the only solution is to get a new disk and recreate the data from a backup (if you have one) or through tedious and time-consuming work. If that does not bother you and you can spare the time to recreate the data that were lost, then redundancy is not an issue for you. Keep in mind that disk failures often occur at inconvenient moments, on a weekend when the shops are closed and you can't get a replacement disk, or when you have a tight deadline.

Re 2. Performance

Opponents of RAID will often say that any modern disk is fast enough for video editing and they are right, but only to a certain extent. As fill rates of disks go up, performance goes down, sometimes by 50%. As the number of disk activities on the disk go up , like accessing (reading or writing) pagefile, media cache, previews, media, project file, output file, performance goes down the drain. The more tracks you have in your project, the more strain is put on your disk. 10 tracks require 10 times the bandwidth of a single track. The more applications you have open, the more your pagefile is used. This is especially apparent on systems with limited memory.

The following chart shows how fill rates on a single disk will impact performance:

HD Tach B.jpg

Remember that I said previously the idea behind RAID is to have a number of disks co-operate in such a way that it looks like one big disk. That means a RAID will not fill up as fast as a single disk and not experience the same performance degradation.

RAID basics

Now that we have established the reasons why people may consider RAID, let's have a look at some of the basics.

Single or Multiple?

There are three methods to configure a RAID array: mirroring, striping and parity check. These are called levels and levels are subdivided in single or multiple levels, depending on the method used. A single level RAID0 is striping only and a multiple level RAID15 is a combination of mirroring (1) and parity check (5). Multiple levels are designated by combining two single levels, like a multiple RAID10, which is a combination of single level RAID0 with a single level RAID1.

Hardware or Software?

The difference is quite simple: hardware RAID controllers have their own processor and usually their own cache. Software RAID controllers use the CPU and the RAM on the motherboard. Hardware controllers are faster but also more expensive. For RAID levels without parity check like Raid0, Raid1 and Raid10 software controllers are quite good with a fast PC.

The common Promise and Highpoint cards are all software controllers that (mis)use the CPU and RAM memory. Real hardware RAID controllers all use their own IOP (I/O Processor) and cache (ever wondered why these hardware controllers are expensive?).

There are two kinds of software RAID's. One is controlled by the BIOS/drivers (like Promise/Highpoint) and the other is solely OS dependent. The first kind can be booted from, the second one can only be accessed after the OS has started. In performance terms they do not differ significantly.

For the technically inclined: Cluster size, Block size and Chunk size

In short: Cluster size applies to the partition and Block or Stripe size applies to the array.

With a cluster size of 4 KB, data are distributed across the partition in 4 KB parts. Suppose you have a 10 KB file, three full clusters will be occupied: 4 KB - 4 KB - 2 KB. The remaining 2 KB is called slackspace and can not be used by other files. With a block size (stripe) of 64 KB, data are distributed across the array disks in 64 KB parts. Suppose you have a 200 KB file, the first part of 64 KB is located on disk A, the second 64 KB is located on disk B, the third 64 KB is located on disk C and the remaining 8 KB on disk D. Here there is no slackspace, because the block size is subdivided into clusters. When working with audio/video material a large block size is faster than smaller block size. Working with smaller files a smaller block size is preferred.

Sometimes you have an option to set 'Chunk size', depending on the controller. It is the minimal size of a data request from the controller to a disk in the array and only useful when striping is used. Suppose you have a block size of 16 KB and you want to read a 1 MB file. The controller needs to read 64 times a block of 16 KB. With a chunk size of 32 KB the first two blocks will be read from the first disk, the next two blocks from the next disk, and so on. If the chunk size is 128 KB. the first 8 blocks will be read from the first disk, the next 8 block from the second disk, etcetera. Smaller chunks are advisable with smaller filer, larger chunks are better for larger (audio/video) files.

RAID Levels

For a full explanation of various RAID levels, look here: http://www.acnc.com/04_01_00/html

What are the benefits of each RAID level for video editing and what are the risks and benefits of each level to help you achieve better redundancy and/or better performance? I will try to summarize them below.

RAID0

The Band AID of RAID. There is no redundancy! There is a risk of losing all data that is a multiplier of the number of disks in the array. A 2 disk array carries twice the risk over a single disk, a X disk array carries X times the risk of losing it all.

A RAID0 is perfectly OK for data that you will not worry about if you lose them. Like pagefile, media cache, previews or rendered files. It may be a hassle if you have media files on it, because it requires recapturing, but not the end-of-the-world. It will be disastrous for project files.

Performance wise a RAID0 is almost X times as fast as a single disk, X being the number of disks in the array.

RAID1

The RAID level for the paranoid. It gives no performance gain whatsoever. It gives you redundancy, at the cost of a disk. If you are meticulous about backups and make them all the time, RAID1 may be a better solution, because you can never forget to make a backup, you can restore instantly. Remember backups require a disk as well. This RAID1 level can only be advised for the C drive IMO if you do not have any trust in the reliability of modern-day disks. It is of no use for video editing.

RAID3

The RAID level for video editors. There is redundancy! There is only a small performance hit when rebuilding an array after a disk failure due to the dedicated parity disk. There is quite a perfomance gain achieveable, but the drawback is that it requires a hardware controller from Areca. You could do worse, but apart from it being the Rolls-Royce amongst the hardware controllers, it is expensive like the car.

Performance wise it will achieve around 85% (X-1) on reads and 60% (X-1) on writes over a single disk with X being the number of disks in the array. So with a 6 disk array in RAID3, you get around 0.85x (6-1) = 425% the performance of a single disk on reads and 300% on writes.

RAID5 & RAID6

The RAID level for non-video applications with distributed parity. This makes for a somewhat severe hit in performance in case of a disk failure. The double parity in RAID6 makes it ideal for NAS applications.

The performance gain is slightly lower than with a RAID3. RAID6 requires a dedicated hardware controller, RAID5 can be run on a software controller but the CPU overhead negates to a large extent the performance gain.

RAID10

The RAID level for paranoids in a hurry. It delivers the same redundancy as RAID 1, but since it is a multilevel RAID, combined with a RAID0, delivers twice the performance of a single disk at four times the cost, apart from the controller. The main advantage is that you can have two disk failures at the same time without losing data, but what are the chances of that happening?

RAID30, 50 & 60

Just striped arrays of RAID 3, 5 or 6 which doubles the speed while keeping redundancy at the same level.

EXTRAS

RAID level 0 is striping, RAID level 1 is mirroring and RAID levels 3, 5 & 6 are parity check methods. For parity check methods, dedicated controllers offer the possibility of defining a hot-spare disk. A hot-spare disk is an extra disk that does not belong to the array, but is instantly available to take over from a failed disk in the array. Suppose you have a 6 disk RAID3 array with a single hot-spare disk and assume one disk fails. What happens? The data on the failed disk can be reconstructed in the background, while you keep working with negligeable impact on performance, to the hot-spare. In mere minutes your system is back at the performance level you were before the disk failure. Sometime later you take out the failed drive, replace it for a new drive and define that as the new hot-spare.

As stated earlier, dedicated hardware controllers use their own IOP and their own cache instead of using the memory on the mobo. The larger the cache on the controller, the better the performance, but the main benefits of cache memory are when handling random R+W activities. For sequential activities, like with video editing it does not pay to use more than 2 GB of cache maximum.

REDUNDANCY

(or security)

Not using RAID entails the risk of a drive failing and losing all data. The same applies to using RAID0 (or better said AID0), only multiplied by the number of disks in the array.

RAID1 or 10 overcomes that risk by offering a mirror, an instant backup in case of failure at high cost.

RAID3, 5 or 6 offers protection for disk failure by reconstructing the lost data in the background (1 disk for RAID3 & 5, 2 disks for RAID6) while continuing your work. This is even enhanced by the use of hot-spares (a double assurance).

PERFORMANCE

RAID0 offers the best performance increase over a single disk, followed by RAID3, then RAID5 amd finally RAID6. RAID1 does not offer any performance increase.

Hardware RAID controllers offer the best performance and the best options (like adjustable block/stripe size and hot-spares), but they are costly.

SUMMARY

If you only have 3 or 4 disks in total, forget about RAID. Set them up as individual disks, or the better alternative, get more disks for better redundancy and better performance. What does it cost today to buy an extra disk when compared to the downtime you have when a single disk fails?

If you have room for at least 4 or more disks, apart from the OS disk, consider a RAID3 if you have an Areca controller, otherwise consider a RAID5.

If you have even more disks, consider a multilevel array by striping a parity check array to form a RAID30, 50 or 60.

If you can afford the investment get an Areca controller with battery backup module (BBM) and 2 GB of cache. Avoid as much as possible the use of software raids, especially under Windows if you can.

RAID, if properly configured will give you added redundancy (or security) to protect you from disk failure while you can continue working and will give you increased performance.

Look carefully at this chart to see what a properly configured RAID can do to performance and compare it to the earlier single disk chart to see the performance difference, while taking into consideration that you can have one disks (in each array) fail at the same time without data loss:

Areca_HDTach1.jpg

Hope this helps in deciding whether RAID is worthwhile for you.

WARNING: If you have a power outage without a UPS, all bets are off.

A power outage can destroy the contents of all your disks if you don't have a proper UPS. A BBM may not be sufficient to help in that case.

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replies 107 Replies 107
New Here ,
Jul 23, 2012 Jul 23, 2012

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I'm potentially buying 5 drives, one ssd and 4hdd's. if i have esata drives for backups, at the end of the day, would this be feasible in the needs of price and speed:

    -(C:) 256GB Samsung 830 - OS, Programs

    -(D:) 2 Samsung 1tb Spinpoint Raid0 - Media, Projects, Pagefile

    -(E:) 2 Samsung 1tb Spinpoint Raid0 - Previews, Media Cache, Exports

Or maybe just make (D:) a Seagate Cheetah for the peace of mind and added speed. Considering my renders wont be "just right" the first time for drive (E:), raid 0 for (E:) and backups at the end of the day gives me the benifit of added speed and less redundancy in my motions as oppossed to (D:) which are most likely gonna be solid across the board w/ my Media.

I hope that makes sense, thanks for any help!

-Lyndon Alvarez

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Guru ,
Apr 26, 2010 Apr 26, 2010

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Excellent explanation. A few things to consider now are the changes that the tapeless workflow has brought to video. Before the tapeless codecs backing up video raws and material was really based on production time and environment more than anything. The enterprise world had to maintain the type of data recovery for ages while the video world could just go back to tape. Now video has entered the enterprise world with the amount of data to backup or maintain and the length of archive. I have many clients who have to maintain raws and or at least finished projects for 6 months to a year period of time. A standard project could be 56GB to 100GB of data that has to be stored with the current codecs. What that means is redundant arrays are for more suitable now to the video world as they have always been for the Enterprise community.

Raid 6 has one big advantage over raid 5 or raid 3. The read speed is significantly faster than raid 5 and the redundancy is far more secure than raid 3. The only requirement is as Harm said the hardware controller. In the tapeless world, editors are not capturing anymore. They are simply copying files from one media to another. This limits the write draw back to raid 6 due to the sequential write that happens most of the time with this method and the higher access time that raid 6 has is negligible when copying few large files from another media that is far slower than the raid anyway. What you need in a tapeless workflow is read speed during the edit workflow which raid 6 has in abundance. The render time writing files is based on the codec and often does not have much performance gain when the write is over 150 to 200 MB/s. You also have the best level of data protection allowing up to 2 disks to fail simultaneously and still retain the array in degraded status. If you keep a hot spare available then your chance of complete failure is near minimized to a complete environmental failure such as a power hit. That can be also limited by software backups to a NAS or E-Sata drive that is only connected to power when needed.

The raid controller is the component though that decides the level of performance and data protection you get. Areca is one of many controller manufacturers that you can get. The performance hit over 50% capacity Sata drives have also happens in raid arrays depending on the controller and the level of raid. Many of the $400 to $600 raid controllers will give you full performance throughout the entire raid volume in a Raid 0 but will still get the 50% volume capacity performance drop with Raid 5 or 6. That also changes when manufacturers update their firmware and change their controller cpu's. The Atto controllers use to be able to maintain performance over the entire array in raid 5 or raid 6 arrays but now have the performance drop with their current chips and firmware. Areca's mid range controllers have always had that performance hit but evidently their higher end controllers that harm has do not. The best controllers you can get are always SAS controllers. Those are basically SCSI controllers which handle Sata drives. SCSI controllers were always able to maintain the performance in an array which was why they were so dominant a decade ago. Now they use the same controller type with Sata drives. The reason some are able to maintain performance and some are not depending on the raid level has to do with the firmware and how it communicates with the controller on each HDD itself. That is really what you are paying for besides the extra ram when buying the $1000+ controllers. Also the raid management software and driver has some affect on this as well. The raid management software affects how efficient and accurate your redundancy is maintained and your rebuild success. It also can decide if your raid controller can get confused in a few scenarios and corrupt your raid 5. I have not seen a raid 6 get corrupted yet so not sure if that can happen. Either way I use and push my client's toward Intel's SAS controllers. They have the new SAS 600 models and they perform as good as Areca or Atto since they all use LSI chips. They have the best management software out that I have seen and they are normally half the price of ATTO controllers. Just some further information to help with deciding what is best for your situation and editing.

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New Here ,
Aug 01, 2010 Aug 01, 2010

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I didn't want to make another topic so decided I'll make my try here:

At the moment the only disk I have is WD Caviar 160GB and some WD Passport 500GB for backup. I was wondering which option would be better to speed up my computer a little:

SSD 30GB for cache files or 2x500GB RAID0 for cache files?

Or maybe the best option would be to buy these 2 500GB WD Black and then:

C: 160GB for OS and programs

D: 500GB for pagefile, media cache

E: 500GB for project files/all other media

F: 500GB G-Drive e-Sata for Backup (which I want to buy too)

I'd be very thankful for all your answers.

Regards

Paul

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LEGEND ,
Aug 01, 2010 Aug 01, 2010

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Look here: Adobe Forums: Generic Guideline for Disk Setup

Just yesterday I noticed that a 80 GB SSD is € 205 here. A 1 TB Samsung Spinpoint F3 is € 55. I rather have 4 x 1 TB F3's than a single SSD. About 50 times the storage capacity for approximately the same price and around twice the performance of a single SSD. That sounds like a no-brainer to me.

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New Here ,
Aug 01, 2010 Aug 01, 2010

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Thank You very much Harm

Now the only consider is - WD Caviar BLACK or Samsung Spinpoint F3. I must do some research

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New Here ,
Aug 01, 2010 Aug 01, 2010

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Harm, I agree very much with your layout and we followed your suggestions a while back and went to single drives on our  3 workstations and have had much better stability and peace of mind. However, as much as we would have loved to have put an Areca RAID card in each ws for our backup, our non-profit budget just would not handle it.

I have opted for another cheap solution that could be a good tradeoff  for others too, and would like to hear your comments on it:

We really did not want to use more than four TB drives in each ws (except in our CS5 ws), so opted for having just a boot/prog drive, with another drive for data and the rest. We have been using the other two TB drives as mirrors (RAID1), through a software solution (MirrorFolder) and have had well over a half a year of stability and satisfaction. When one of the OS drives failed, MirrorFolder automatically kicked in at reboot and allowed us to boot off the OS mirror and install another drive very quickly. We lost almost no time and no work.

I realize this is a tradeoff and the ideal would be for the hardware to handle the RAID1, but am offering it as a very nice and cheap alternative to other ways. It has given us great peace of mind and real confidence, especially when backing up to an external 4 TB eSata every now and then. We take a slight performance hit under Win7 x64, but nothing that was enough to bring CS3, CS4 or CS5 to their knees yet.The newest version of MirrorFolder (5,0,252) is very nice and leverages multicores and is quite stable under Win 7 x64. We love being able to mirror an occasional odd project folder at any time with it, too.

Comments?

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LEGEND ,
Aug 01, 2010 Aug 01, 2010

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Motherboards often have some limited raid capability with the ICHR10 chip. That is a perfectly feasible solution for either raid0 or raid1. You have to set it up in BIOS, but once done, you do not need to get a separate software utility. There is hardly any performance penalty, and very likely much less than with a software utility. Raid5 is usually crappy on the ICHR10 chip and will lead to significant performance penalties and requires some serious tuning.

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New Here ,
Aug 01, 2010 Aug 01, 2010

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Maybe someone would be willing to do a "low end" test on the difference between the two? Since this is about the cheapest and least time consuming (from a backup standpoint) of all the "security" solutions, I'm sure there might be a number of others interested in this as well. The new feature set of MirrorFolder is pretty complete, so it could be revealing to those of us with built-in RAID chipsets (but using software solutions instead). MF is especially easy for adding drives later on.

I forgot to mention that MirrorFolder 5 is a beta version I think, so it might be a bit more difficult to obtain for testing without a license.

******************

After checking, this was in the email TechSoft that sent out:

MirrorFolder v5.0 (beta) is now available for download and testing from  the link given below. You may use your existing v4.x serial number to  install it freshly or over your existing MF v4.x. You may also use the  temporary serial number "XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX" (two computers)  to install it on maximum two different computers for evaluation.  However, this temporary serial number will expire on 5th Oct, 2010.

To save you work if you wanted to know what is different from the past, here's their info on what's new:Here are major changes in MF v5.0:

* Added support for copying open files using Windows Volume Shadow Copy Service APIs in all synchronization modes.

* Added option to perform synchronization in a separate thread with different priority.

* Added option to perform multi-threaded synchronization on multi core/CPU systems.

* Added option to send email notification on error/warning, and successful synchronization/archive operation.

* The main user interface program now shows volume label of  source/mirror drives that are not currently connected. But it still uses  volume ID to identify source/mirror drives.

* Supports for selection of network drive/folder as source to mirror on another network or local drive.

* Added command line option to change volume for the mirror folder to mirror it on a new drive.

* Added option to encrypt ZIP files.

* It now automatically use 64-bit ZIP file format if ZIP file size grows beyond 2 GB.

* Added option to synchronize when user remains idle for the specified time.

* Support for Windows 95, 98, Me, NT 4.0, and 2000 has been removed.
         
* Many other small changes and improvements.

***************

I'd love to see someone test this, as it might save them money (or convince them to buy something useful and cheap that is a real help and very easy to use).

Message was edited by: sarmour2 - to add information

Message was edited by: sarmour2 - removed temp serial number

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New Here ,
Nov 16, 2010 Nov 16, 2010

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Good question

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New Here ,
Nov 16, 2010 Nov 16, 2010

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Great posts and some great answers out there. I am just getting my NLE machine up and running and will be doing 5-10 min. segments shot with Canon 5DII in full HD. I have read most of haarm's threads as well as many other resources on RAID 0. Against some of the recommendations I have purchased 2 WD 1 TB Black drives that I want to set up in RAID 0. I will mostly be using PP and I read on Adobe's sys req that you needed RAID 0 for uncompressed.

-ASUS x58 Sabertooth

-I7 950 with mild OC 3.50

-12gb Ram

-Seagate 1 TB (os) sata

-2x 1 TB WD Black Caviar (I want to raid 0) sata

-2x optical drives sata

I can not for the life of me get the RAID to work with the ICHY10 mobo controller. Here are the steps I am following:

Boot to BIOS set sata to RAID 0

Go in to Matrix Drive Manager Make Raid Volume out of 2x WD 1 TB

Boot to Vista 64 disk

In disk manager of install I have the following;

  DISC 0 1864 GB unspecified data

  DISC 1  936 GB Main

I select the 1864, hit new, specify the size, format, than I get this:

  DISC 0 1864 GB unspecified data

  DISC 1  936 GB Main

I hit the install drivers link in the bottom left and load the ITCHY10 controller drivers from the mobo disc then put the windows disk back in and install too the smaller 1 TB drive. When windows reboots it hangs at the bios screen when it gets too SATA 4 every time for 30 seconds then it goes on to the windows screen with the scrolling green bar and freezes there. Any ideas? Do I even need RAID 0 or will it work using Haarm's 3 disc set up? Remember it is all HD video I will be editing but not many tracks just lots of cuts.

Thanks in advance.

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New Here ,
Nov 16, 2010 Nov 16, 2010

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So you lose your sunglasses and look for them for an hour, finally in desperation you reach out to your friends and ask them if they have seen your sunglasses. You notice as you say this they are starring at your head not your eyes. Your hand quickly moves up to feel the top of your head and bumps into the "lost sunglasses"

Well no sooner did I ask this last question, I unplug the two RAID 0 drives and do a hard reboot as it was frozen. The boot up is still slow but different. It makes it through to the windows screen and says finishing installing windows. Maybe I wasn't patient enough the other 10 times or maybe it was that I unplugged the 2 RAID drives, or a mixture of both.

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LEGEND ,
Nov 17, 2010 Nov 17, 2010

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If your raid is properly setup in Bios, Windows sees it as unallocated.

I would format the raid as a Basic disk, set it to Active with only a Primary Partition, like my D drive here:

17-11-2010 10-40-31.jpg

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Guru ,
Nov 17, 2010 Nov 17, 2010

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During the post, you have the drive detection and smart requests. If a drive does not respond initially then the bios will continue to send the requests until the timeout period has been exhausted. That time out period is normally set to 30 seconds by default in the bios. You can lower than to 5 or 10 seconds if you want to. However what this means is you have a drive, likely number 4 that is not responding to the bios. You need to check the cables to that drive and try it on a different sata port. You might have a bad drive.

Eric

ADK

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New Here ,
Dec 29, 2010 Dec 29, 2010

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You wrote: "Motherboards often have some limited raid capability  with the ICHR10 chip. That is a perfectly feasible solution for either  raid0 or raid1."  So for a moment I thought: 'not for Raid10'. Then I red your start: "For RAID levels without parity check like Raid0, Raid1 and Raid10 software controllers are quite good with a fast PC." So this PiaH is happy. Furthermore, googling on the string "RAID 10 on ICH10R" did not result in a lot of troubles, on the contrary, it seems to work well, the most critical remark I found was at a 6disk RAID 10 on ICH10R: "It will work, but you will not see the full potential out of the raid array without a dedicated hardware based raid card."

I  would like to ask you the following, given the fact 1) the building business where I operate is extremely bad and my budget is very tight after buying ASRockX58Extreme6, Intel-i7-950, 3x4GB KHR1600, Seasonic750W, C300-SSD forOS/Programs and Win7Ult and 2) I am mainly working with Photoshop but  sometimes want to touch video-editing to broaden my market:

I'm  opting for the 4-disk config from your Guideline with E: and F: in  raid0. This is actually your 3-disk config with the Pagefile on the  E:, isn't it? Then I would like to set up my D: (media, projects) as a  4 disk RAID 10 on ICH10R. With 4x 1T-SpinpointF3-disks of €50 (or 4x  320GB-spinpointsF4 of €35), this will only cost €200 for 2TB (or  €140  for 640GB). Given the fact that I am a poor Paranoïd in a Hurry, does  this make some sense, and can I even make this crazier with a 6diskRAID10? Or did I overlook something

One complication. ECBowen wrote: "Add  to that the fact it matters which disks fail with a raid 10 when 2 fail  versus any 2 disks in a raid 6 and the old mantra of a raid 10 is no  longer the case. That is why we propose parity raids versus raid 10." Although I do not understand this, does this also apply to 1 failing disk?

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Guru ,
Dec 29, 2010 Dec 29, 2010

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With Raid 10, It will not matter which disk fails if only 1 drive fails. It's only if the second drive fails that it matters which one.

Eric

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New Here ,
Nov 25, 2010 Nov 25, 2010

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"Harm" says: ....

"RAID10

The RAID level for paranoids in a hurry. It delivers the same redundancy as RAID 1, but since it is a multilevel RAID, combined with a RAID0, delivers twice the performance of a single disk at four times the cost, apart from the controller. The main advantage is that you can have two disk failures at the same time without losing data, but what are the chances of that happening?"

-----------------------------

Uhmm:

Raid 10 deserves a little more love,

Raid 3 is impratical for "MOST" users even with Hardware Raid controllers, unless like you said, you get a mortgage to buy Areca,...

-> Any "parity"-based Raid lvl, such as 3,5,6,50,60,... can NOT compare to the straight out "sustained" performance of the multilevel-"KISS" Raid10 (aka 0+1, 1+0).

Actually, "Parity" Raid levels historically, were not meant for "great" performance, as much as they were designed for massive storage solutions. -(ya know, back in the day when disk storage was NOT cheap !).

-> ie. with an 8-Disk Raid10, now you will accurately get 4x the performance of a single disk at only twice the cost. (4-Disks x 2)

Everyone knows Raid10 is the best Raid for "performance" -especially when you need to consider "SUSTAINED" writing,(aka monstrously huge 1080p-style video files, ...).

-> The other obvious thing to consider is that Raid10 does not suffer from performance degradation when it needs to rebuild the array, in fact, Raid10 is virtually instantaneous, unlike the "parity"-based Raid's (aka 3,5, 6...) which can take literally hours, or even days to Build\rebuild while suffering from read/write performance degradation  while it's re-building.

The only disadvantage to Raid10, and I do mean the only one, is that you have to consider purchasing twice the capacity required, but Raid10's resilience, performance, and redundancy far outweigh the initial cost of the disks, especially considering the cost of Disk space today ?! comon !

For example, I recently bought (some el-cheapo) (8) Hitachi Deskstar SATA2(7200rpm) 2-Terabyte per/disk for just over $100/each.

In a Hardware Raid10 configuration I easily get ~600 MBytes/sec read/write, (using BlackMagic's Disk Speed Test Utility), and that ain't bad. I also could lose up to half my Disks without worrying about any performance hit whatsoever, at any time.

-> Lastly, "ANY", and "ALL"  decent hardware RAID contoller's have at the least, a Raid 10, <- It is FUTURE proof.

In other words, no I do not use Areca, but even if I did, I would use Raid 10 for the obvious reasons.

But also, other hardware Raid controllers, such as Adaptec, or  LSI/MegaRAID/3ware, ....can also fit most Video-editing users' needs at half-the price of that Areca.

Either way, Raid 10 should be given primary consideration, before having to consider Raid 3, 5, 6 ...

Cheers,

Rick.

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LEGEND ,
Nov 25, 2010 Nov 25, 2010

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I will follow your argument:

Situation 1: Areca ARC 1880/4GB $ 1050, 12 x 2 TB disks in Raid30 @ $ 100 = $ 1200, total cost $ 2250, net storage 20 TB, sustained r/w speed 850 MB/s+

Situation 2: Adaptec 52445 $ 1350, 20 x 2 TB disks in Raid10 @ $ 100 = $ 2000, total cost $ 3350, net storage 20 TB, sustained r/w speed 850 MB/s+

Who says that Areca is expensive? And the Areca has 4 GB cache, the Adaptec only 512 MB.

The conclusion is that in effect the Areca saves you $ 1100 investment. Your suggestion means you pay $ 1100 extra for the paranoid idea that more than two disks will fail at the same time, and I leave out the extra costs for an additional case and PSU to house and power all those 20 disks.

Draw your own conclusions.

with an 8-Disk Raid10, now you will accurately get 4x the performance of a single disk at only twice the cost. (4-Disks x 2)

Where did you go to school? How much is 8 x $ 100? How much more expensive is that than $ 100? In my calculus class one would say only EIGHT times.

You get the same performance at TWICE the price of a raid0, or 4x the perfomance at EIGHT times the cost, would have been much more accurate.

Raid 3 is impratical for "MOST" users even with Hardware Raid controllers, unless like you said, you get a mortgage to buy Areca,...

Your solution is around 50% more expensive than the expensive Areca, so you better try to get a second mortgage as well.

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Guru ,
Nov 29, 2010 Nov 29, 2010

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You might want to check raid 5 and raid 6 performance results again with a standard enterprise level raid controller because things have changed. An 8 drive 7200 raid 5 array on a standard controller like the Intel raid controllers are sustaining 650Mb/s to 700MB/s depending on the drives used for both read and write. Raid 6 on the same controller is averaging 635MB/s to 650MB/s Read and 600MB/s Write with the same 8 drives. You are definitely accurate with the rebuild times although raid 5 and raid 6 rebuild now is down to an hour or 2 with the same controllers. The load is no longer an issue during rebuild as well due to background rebuild options currently. The benefit of raid 10 is the ability to run those arrays on cheaper controllers such as the onboard without having the rebuild penalty that you get running a parity raid. Also the integrity of the redundancy is not as good with parity raids on the onboard controller. However the money you save on the controller, you pay with the extra disks for a similar volume size. Add to that the fact it matters which disks fail with a raid 10 when 2 fail versus any 2 disks in a raid 6 and the old mantra of a raid 10 is no longer the case. That is why we propose parity raids versus raid 10.

Eric
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Explorer ,
Nov 28, 2010 Nov 28, 2010

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Great thread(s) on RAID!

But, where and how do I set-up all my Adobe appz to use my RAID0?

Should I mount it as a folder, like /data? or as D: / ?

When using Premier with ONE HD for boot and appz and data, even if a 15K SAS, its so slow and frustrating!

I have 4 x SAS 15k Hitachi HDs for use in a RAID system and have them in a RAID0 at present as they are only 75GB each in size, but I will use RAID3 if it's a much better path.  suggestions?

Can I set-up ALL my Adobe appz at once to use this RAID sub-system?  reguardless, where do I do this within the adobe appz?

thanks,

billy

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LEGEND ,
Nov 28, 2010 Nov 28, 2010

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Raids are defined in Bios and on the OS level. PR has nothing to do with it. A Raid is seen as a single disk by all applications.

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Explorer ,
Nov 28, 2010 Nov 28, 2010

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I understand. I must not have explained my question well. This is an old thread I thought may would help me out some. It's not have orignal thread.

I already have built my RAID0 (but could change to RAID3) and use Highpoint's RocketRaid 4320 hardware controller. My question has to do with how best to attach it (or any HD) to improve my video editing performance. I can attach the HD as a separate drive as in D: \ or I can mount it as a folder such as \data under C: . I am not sure which way would boost performance for editing video such as with Premier or Director.

Anyways, I was hoping someone could comment on this concern.

Thanks,

billy

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New Here ,
Dec 13, 2010 Dec 13, 2010

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Excellent post.  I have learned much from this post.  I have a much better appreciation of what I am planning to implement.  I guess I am "paranoid on speed" as I plan on 1+0.  Here is what I have planned:

OS drive:  Western Digital VelociRaptor WD6000HLHX 600GB 10000 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive.  I will be running Windows 7 ultimate 64 bit, not pro as recommended, as I purchased this at a very discounted rate.

Working drives:  SAMSUNG Spinpoint F3R HE103SJ 1TB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive.  I originally went with WD black, but read many issues with TLER.  As such, I will be using the Spinpoint f3R (not F3) - I will pay a few dollars more for the higher grade.  These will be configured in raid 1+0.  Any issues with Samsung F3R running in Raid 1+0?  I did not go with the WD RE4 due to the cost increase vs. Spinpoint.

The 1+0 will done using the MOBO (MSI XPower Big Bang) as now I understand there is not much advantage in a separate hardware controller for my situation.  Here is what I do not quite understand yet after reading all the posts.  As I will be running raid 1+0 on the 4 "working / storage" drives, not the OS drive, is all the "configuration" data stored in the BIOS, or is some stored in the OS?  As I am not planning on using any redundancy Raid on the OS drive, will this cause issues if my OS drive crashes and needs to be rebuilt?  Will it lose pertinent data needed to keep the raid integrity intact?  I will be doing an Acronis backup monthly on the OS drive however.  Will this be adequate?

Thanks in advance.

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Guru ,
Dec 16, 2010 Dec 16, 2010

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The raid MetaData is stored on the drives in the volume. This is how you can migrate raids from 1 system to another even changing controllers sometimes. Although the changing controller part is sketchy and may not work. It depends what chip the previous controller was using and the drivers for the new raid controller. They have to allow importing foreign configurations. So to answer your question, the raids will be fine if the OS fails.

Eric

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New Here ,
Dec 16, 2010 Dec 16, 2010

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Thank you - I am going to move forward with the 10 as described.

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New Here ,
Dec 17, 2010 Dec 17, 2010

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hi harm

could you tell me what you think about my configuration and the way i use it ive got 4 hard disk ?

1) wd 2,5size  velociraptor 300 gb 10000rpm partion in 2 (150gb for win 7 and program and 150gb for archivie)

2) wd 500  gb 7200rpm that i use only  for premiere project whit video file that i've import

3) wd 500 gb 7200rpm that i use for rendering of the premiere project

4(wd 1t b7200 rpm that i've partioned in 2 (500gb for archivie file music, photo, ecc and another 500gb i use for different file word ecc)

Dou you think it's usefull put premiere project in one hard disk and the rendering in another one or is better to put them in raid 0 ?

or there is a best way to use my drive?   maybe i have to create a little partion of the 1tb and use it for file pagging?

after tomorrow i'll format my pc and re-installing win 7 and adobe suite so it will be an opportunity for me to change my configuration

thank

silvio

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